GoT Season 2 Vs. A Clash of Kings **Some BOOK 3 discussion SPOILERS**Mod note post #1

Mickeroo

Well, i'm literally just after finishing A Clash of Kings and I'd be interested in hearing what book readers think of the differences between the series and the book. I thougt the first book was pretty much a carbon copy of the show, but the second book grabbed me a lot more as I had no idea what to expect a lot of the time. I was going to have a gander at the "have read the books" episode threads but I fear there'll be spoilers for the later books in there. So I would appreciate that spoilers for any books after A Clash of Kings were left out of the equation.

I still loved series two and I can see how some changes made sense, Arya & Tywin's relationship for one was one of the best things about Season 2 but never even happened in the books. I'm not sure how much a difference who controls Harrenhall will make to the show, I guess maybe they'll have the northerners catch it at the start of Season 3 or not at all.

I find it strange that the Boltons have been left out of the series thus far altogether, it was very ambiguous who had burned winterfell in the show and I wonder how they'll tie up that loose end once series 3 comes out. It makes no sense for it to be burnt in the show as the Boltons are never mentioned and it seemed the Ironmen were just taking Robb's terms and fleeing home, and for all we knew there was a northen host surrounding the castle.

The biggest deviations for me though are coming in Jon Snow's and Bran's storylines. Jon's story in the book was far better than the show, it would have been much better to show his relationship with Qhorin Halfhand and the other rangers as it is in the book, it also would have made Qhorin's death seem more of a big deal too and added more weight to Jon's defection. Giving Ygritte more screentime instead made no sense to me in hindsight.

With Bran its a shame the Reeds were left out, though I am to understand they will be introduced next season which should make up for it. i understand its hard to adapt the book with so many characters for a ten episode show though. My biggest gripe with the portrayal of Bran is the playing down of him being a warg/beastling(this applies to Jon too a little). it's hinted at a bit in the show with some of his dreams, but only very little, I was surprised how big a part it plays in the book and its a shame it hasn't been made more obvious imho.

I guess with the Reed's coming next season they'll be taking elements from A Clash of Kings and working them into Bran's story, I imagine they'll have him heading North soon enough too.

Anyway I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of other readers since I missed out on them during the show. Initially I hadn't intended to start A Storm of Swords until after season 3 but I'm going to start it right now instead

MOD NOTE TO Posters: No spoilers past book 2 please - if you must forewarn and spoiler tag please Thread has gone into discussion of book 3, again be careful with spoilers and warn people etc.
NOTE - Just added the warning/reminder to title and post just incase OP - Calex

Sleepy

I think Bran's warging is being downplayed to let the non-fantasy reading viewership get more comfortable with watching a fantasy show, introducing it slower in the hopes that they'll be hooked by the story by the time the silly "fantasy is for teenage boys" voice starts going off in the back of their heads.

Loved Arya and Tywin's scenes together but missed her active role in the escape as portrayed in the books (more blood on her hands).

Winterfell, I think they deliberately left vague so they can shock the viewers with what happened there in flashback next season.

I'm currently re-reading A Storm of Swords, you're gonna love it. Try not to skim past bits though, I missed tons of things on my first read.

calex71

I thought the show was fine for the most part and echo Sleepy, I've said it a few times now but the the changes to Jon arc left me scratching my head and again the big one of leaving out the line and scene "Now? ... we run!!!!" why would you not end an episode with that

Boltons I can get over but no set up for Reeds was odd.

Also again read storm of swords asap and wear a nappy because you will wet yourself, by far the fastest paced and most exciting of the books by a running mile.

And do not go into the "have read the books" threads :eek:

Chief_Jack

As the others have said read A Storm of Swords, its personally my favorite of the whole series (I read them all in the last few months). It is absolutely amazing and if you enjoyed reading the second you will enjoy it at least as much or possibly more. Wish I could read it for the first time again!

johnnyskeleton

I think that with a story involving many subplots, it's actually better to mix it up. The changes make it interesting and also make the world a bit more 3 dimensional. This is especially true if the writer of the books is assisting in the production.

Anything they change can perhaps show that something that seems like it will be important in the books can actually be less important if it is excluded in the series. At other times, however, it is changed due to time or to Hollywood it up.

Ally7

I really enjoyed both season 2 and a clash of kings, but my biggest gripe with the t.v. show was that Catelyn and Robb didn't know about bran and Rickon being "killed" before she released jaime and he married Tulisa. In the books both of them were distraught at the boys' deaths and it explained their rash actions, but the tv show made them seem like two very weak and selfish characters as there was little explanation for their actions, imo.

Mickeroo

Ally7 wrote: »

I really enjoyed both season 2 and a clash of kings, but my biggest gripe with the t.v. show was that Catelyn and Robb didn't know about bran and Rickon being "killed" before she released jaime and he married Tulisa. In the books both of them were distraught at the boys' deaths and it explained their rash actions, but the tv show made them seem like two very weak and selfish characters as there was little explanation for their actions, imo.

Good point, it makes Catelyn in particular look very bad in the show.

Sleepy

It's hardly as if Catelyn is a tower of strength or common sense in the books either tbh...

connemara man

Daenerys is a stronger character in the books than in the tv show imo

cozzie55

I think the tv show has portrayed Danny as a bit arrogant. In the show she keeps going on about it being her right to be queen on the iron throne and that everything should be handed to her as a result. Being honest it was one reason I didn't really like her character in the show.

Where as with the books she seams to question more her right and weather the people of westros actually want her back, i.e. she doesn't know the people and all the information she has about westros she has got from Viserys

fitz0

I like the direction they've taken with Theon in the show. In the books he's nothing short of a cunt with little explanation. He's much more sympathetic in the show and he's a bit more fleshed out. I wonder what will happen him now and in the next series

without the appearance of Reek

The substitution of Robbs new wife for Jeyne Westerling makes sense from a TV point of view but I'm not sure how it will play out in regards to events in SoS.

Mickeroo

Well into A Storm of Swords now, on part 2 of it. I had seen a few people mention "throw the book across the room moments" and I hadn't really come across one yet. That all changed after

edmure's wedding

:mad:

Chief_Jack

Mickeroo wrote: »

Well into A Storm of Swords now, on part 2 of it. I had seen a few people mention "throw the book across the room moments" and I hadn't really come across one yet. That all changed after

edmure's wedding

:mad:

I think I put the book down and just stared at it for about 20 minutes after that happened.

Sleepy

Mickeroo wrote: »

Well into A Storm of Swords now, on part 2 of it. I had seen a few people mention "throw the book across the room moments" and I hadn't really come across one yet. That all changed after

edmure's wedding

:mad:

It's generally referred to as the

Red Wedding

.

Coming to the end of a re-read of ASOS at the moment myself and it's so heavily fore-shadowed in the book I can't believe I didn't see it coming on the first read!

Chief_Jack

Sleepy wrote: »

It's generally referred to as the

Red Wedding

.

Coming to the end of a re-read of ASOS at the moment myself and it's so heavily fore-shadowed in the book I can't believe I didn't see it coming on the first read!

Probably because it was just so damn unexpected! I too call it the

Red Wedding

but that's only from reading further in the book where it gets mentioned as that often.

Mickeroo

Yea I think the foreshadowing is only obvious in hindsight Though

Grey Wind getting all agressive entering the Twins had my spider sense tingling

.

event

one thing I will say about that incident in the book

when that happens in the show, people are going to have a fit. When Ned was killed people went mad but when that happens, there will be outrage IMO

Sleepy

Yup. I personally can't wait for it.

Pepe LeFrits

Sleepy wrote: »

Yup. I personally can't wait for it.

I hope so, but

I'm not sure Robb's character is liked well enough, at least compared to Ned. Plenty of time for him to get there though.

I think with the changes to the development of Arya and probably to Bran too, they've been slowed down. The ASOIAF series just keeps expanding so stuff that was originally planned to happen midway through the series has been happening (relatively) earlier now. Pretty sure Martin is fully onboard with the TV series stretching it out.

Sleepy

Some of the other stuff has been fast-tracked though... a number of the events at the end of Season 2 actually take place very early in Book 3.

Mickeroo

I think they'll have to change the chronology of how things to play out in aSoS's for it to work on screen. Both season 1 and 2 have kind of built up to something, which was easy since they were just covering one book.

There's several things in Book 3 that could be built to as season finale's (

either of the weddings for example

if you know what I mean, but they all happen in the second part of the book, the only big thing in the first part of the book I thought was maybe

Dany turning the unsullied on the slavers and getting her army at last, delighted to see Ser Barristan should be returning too

.


The

Red Wedding

will be interesting to see how it goes down, in the show

Robb is very much a main protaganist more so than he is in the books, having both him and Catelyn done in in the space of one scene will piss off a lot of people, though Joffrey's subsequent demise might soften the blow.

I've just read the part where

Stannis marches on the wildlings

, will be hard to do that justice on the show, probably be season 4 before we see that anyways

One thing about ASOSs, I know Martin is infamous for axing beloved characters and such, but sometimes its just so damn unsatisfying! The

Wedding

was hard to take, but I accepted it after a while. Strangely enough I was more bothered by

The Red Viper getting killed by the Mountain, because of the way the scene played out, he had won the fight, Clegan was done for(and is probably dead regardless), he was getting his justice but Martin couldn't let us have that the fecker.

He's trolling us.

My favourite thing about the book so far apart from the copnstant excitement has been the sudden likeability of

Jaime, before this book I wanted him gutted in much the same I wanted Joffrey dead, but now that he's learned a bit of humility and that he's become a POV character I'm actually rooting for him.

calex71

Got your reported post there Mickeroo, as long as stuff remains spoiler tagged etc. it's fine to continue here, or you can start a book 3 discussion thread if you prefer. I'll fiddle with the thread title now.

Sleepy

ASOS is being split across season's 3 and 4 so I think

The Red Wedding

will be the big moment towards the end of Season 3 and Season 4 will end roughly where the book does.

quickbeam

Mickeroo wrote: »

the sudden likeability of

Jaime,

Absolutely! I can't remember a time I've done such a 360 degree turn on a character. What a difference a POV makes. Who'd have thought that

pushing a young child out of a high building

would become almost forgiveable.

ArmaniJeanss

I think it would be a mistake if as End of Season 3 Finale they use

the Red Wedding. Because even the most innocent of viewers will be expecting something major to happen purely because it's the last 20 minutes of the last episode of the season.
I think the it worked great in the book because it was a random chapter ~60% of the way through the book - I always believed at the back of my mind that they'd get through the wedding unscathed and that GRRM was just scaring us with all foreboding. Wherras if it was the last chapter I'd have been much more on guard.

Unfortunately for casting reasons it'll probably be handier for the producers not to bring Robb and Cat (and Edmure and the Umbers) back for 2 episodes in Season 4.

Sleepy

I imagine they'll follow the same path as they did with Eddard's beheading and do it in episode 8/9 of Season 3

podgemonster

Ya i think they will tweek the series to make cliffhangers and major events at the end of both.

Season 3:

Jaime loses hand, Dany gets her army, The Red Wedding and finally Jon returning to Castle Black

Season 4:

Dany takes big slave city, Stannis vs. Mance, Joffery Wedding, Tryrion trial and finishing with the crossbrow in the privy

I think when i read the

Red Wedding piece i was mostly distracted by the movement of Ayra and the Hound and was hoping that Catleyn would be finally reunited with one of her children that i didn't notice the threat.

I always get excited when i think the starks children are about to cross paths but it never happens, like when Jon and Bran are a stones throw from each other at one stage at the gift, so frustrating

Mickeroo

I can see Shae being a problem.

Her character is portrayed completely differently in the show, there's a lot of mystery about her background thats not really there in the book. I never really thought she truly loved Tyrion in the book, but in the show that final scene after the battle when he's in bed made me think she did, plus there was her relationship with Sansa.
In the series there seems to be a lot more to her and I genuinely wonder if they'll have her double cross him/be strangled by him.

Tywin is more sympathetic too, but i think after the bomb is dropped about Tysha it will feel like he derves the arrow to the gut. Felt really sorry for Jaime in that scene when he came clen though I hve to say!

Have a couple of more chapters to read & the epilogue, hopefully the postman will have the rest of the books dropped off tomorrow

calex71

Mickeroo wrote: »

Have a couple of more chapters to read & the epilogue, hopefully the postman will have the rest of the books dropped off tomorrow

Ok when you pick your jaw off the floor from the epilogue , don't be in too big a rush for A Feast for Crows, I went at them with no break and 'Crows is really hard work after book 3

I'm half way through book 5 at the minute and I'm not a fan of how they were done, I keep having to remind myself this isn't after book 4 it's parallel to it when certain characters are mentioned, I can see why it was done and likely no other way to have done it better but the series in my eyes suffered a little for it in terms of pacing as a result.

Mickeroo

calex71 wrote: »

Ok when you pick your jaw off the floor from the epilogue , don't be in too big a rush for A Feast for Crows, I went at them with no break and 'Crows is really hard work after book 3

I'm half way through book 5 at the minute and I'm not a fan of how they were done, I keep having to remind myself this isn't after book 4 it's parallel to it when certain characters are mentioned, I can see why it was done and likely no other way to have done it better but the series in my eyes suffered a little for it in terms of pacing as a result.

Just read it there! I had kind of ruined it on myself though,

Absent mindedly flicked to see how many pages were in the book and saw Catelyn's name on the last page. Put 2 and 2 together then from Nymeria pulling her body out of the River and the fact that Merrett was meeting Dondarrion's crew. Still one hell of a stinger though! Would have rathered if it was Robb

Will be hard not to launch straight into Feast for Crows I have to say, though I've picked up from on here that Books 4 and 5 are a step down from the brilliance of Book 3, and it was brilliant! Is the entire Dance with Dragons running parallel with a Feast for Crows? I take it there's certain characters not featured in it at all then?

ArmaniJeanss

Mickeroo wrote: »

Just read it there! I had kind of ruined it on myself though,

Absent mindedly flicked to see how many pages were in the book and saw Catelyn's name on the last page. Put 2 and 2 together then from Nymeria pu

lling her body out of the River and the fact that Merrett was meeting Dondarrion's crew. Still one hell of a stinger though! Would have rathered if it was Robb

Will be hard not to launch straight into Feast for Crows I have to say, though I've picked up from on here that Books 4 and 5 are a step down from the brilliance of Book 3, and it was brilliant! Is the entire Dance with Dragons running parallel with a Feast for Crows? I take it there's certain characters not featured in it at all then?

Yep a handful of characters aren't in AFFC at all including

Tyrion and Daenerys, and Jon only gets half a page. FWIW, I thought it was a fine book, marginally better than A Clash of Kings.

calex71

Mickeroo wrote: »

Just read it there! I had kind of ruined it on myself though,

Absent mindedly flicked to see how many pages were in the book and saw Catelyn's name on the last page. Put 2 and 2 together then from Nymeria pulling her body out of the River and the fact that Merrett was meeting Dondarrion's crew. Still one hell of a stinger though! Would have rathered if it was Robb

Will be hard not to launch straight into Feast for Crows I have to say, though I've picked up from on here that Books 4 and 5 are a step down from the brilliance of Book 3, and it was brilliant! Is the entire Dance with Dragons running parallel with a Feast for Crows? I take it there's certain characters not featured in it at all then?

Step down is not really fair, book 4 is hard work, it's not that it's bad but after 3's pace and revelations it's tough, and 5 being parallel but a better read helps. They are set ups like the 2nd was when after 3 you want the story all now now now , What doesn't help is knowing 5 was only recent and the gap between 4 and 5 being more epic than the books. Which is why i'm taking my time with 5, knowing he only has 200-300 pages of 6 done and the 6 years it took dance to come out

Edit: Bollox I just spoiled something for myself by checking wikipedia for his progress on "Winds of Winter"

Mickeroo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Yep a handful of characters aren't in AFFC at all including

Tyrion and Daenerys, and Jon only gets half a page. FWIW, I thought it was a fine book, marginally better than A Clash of Kings.

Considering the title of the book I'm surprised

Jon Snow isn't in it much! Dang, am eager to see what happens with Tyrion next. where Storm of Swords left Dany was kind of non-cliffhangerish so I'm not too pushed about that, I figured she's just going to play at being a queen a while anyway.

calex71 wrote: »

Step down is not really fair, book 4 is hard work, it's not that it's bad but after 3's pace and revelations it's tough, and 5 being parallel but a better read helps. They are set ups like the 2nd was when after 3 you want the story all now now now , What doesn't help is knowing 5 was only recent and the gap between 4 and 5 being more epic than the books. Which is why i'm taking my time with 5, knowing he only has 200-300 pages of 6 done and the 6 years it took dance to come out

Edit: Bollox I just spoiled something for myself by checking wikipedia for his progress on "Winds of Winter"

I get you. Yeah the huge gap between those books has me worried. At that rate the show will overtake him.

Sleepy

A Feast for Crows definitely improved for me on a second reading. It's much slower paced than the first three but there's lots of very subtle plot development. A slower, more attentive reading style is needed to get the best from it IMHO.

calex71, don't take anything from the Winds of Winter page on Wikipedia page as a given. Amazon had a plot summary up for it for months that simply couldn't have been accurate.

Keogg

Mickeroo wrote: »

I get you. Yeah the huge gap between those books has me worried. At that rate the show will overtake him.

A friend told me there was rumours that if the show does overtake the books that they'll do a prequel series of Roberts rebellion! Which I would absolutely love, so almost half hoping that will happen, but at the same time I'm dying for the next book too!

Sleepy

That would rock! Though they'd have to re-cast Robert, can't see Mark Addy getting in the shape required to play Robert as he was then!

Mickeroo

Would love to see that! Robert smashing Rheagar with his hammer, could you imagine?!

podgemonster

Or Brandon Stark choking to death as he tries to save his father from Aerys trial by fire! Simply mouthwatering

it should be done anyway although the writers would have to think of their own dialogue and some of that can be hit and miss.

Mickeroo

THey could probably squeeze it into a movie if they wanted to.

ArmaniJeanss

Keogg wrote: »

A friend told me there was rumours that if the show does overtake the books that they'll do a prequel series of Roberts rebellion! Which I would absolutely love, so almost half hoping that will happen, but at the same time I'm dying for the next book too!

I doubt it very much to be honest - far more likely is that they'd push on ahead with the main story using their own scripts and outlines of plot direction from GRRM.
It would be unfeasible to halt production on the main storyline for a couple of years and expect the cast to reassemble down the line - crew and more problematically actors would have signed up to different roles in the interim.

Which is not to say the 'prequel' won't be done at some stage, but more likely on a small scale (120 minute special maybe) and in parallel with the main show production.

Mickeroo

calex71 wrote: »

Ok when you pick your jaw off the floor from the epilogue , don't be in too big a rush for A Feast for Crows, I went at them with no break and 'Crows is really hard work after book 3

I'm half way through book 5 at the minute and I'm not a fan of how they were done, I keep having to remind myself this isn't after book 4 it's parallel to it when certain characters are mentioned, I can see why it was done and likely no other way to have done it better but the series in my eyes suffered a little for it in terms of pacing as a result.

I've taken your advice and not rushed into A Feast for Crows. I'm reading Royal Assassin by Robin Hobb (part 2 of the farseer trilogy) first, its pretty slow but really good. A lot of similar stuff in it to a song of ice and fire too though nowhere near as graphic. Decent series to get into when you finish A Dance with Dragons if you haven't already read them.

Gbear

I don't see there being much scope for a full series of Rober't Rebellion but between that, Dunk and Egg and some of the other historical events (war of the Ninepenny kings, Balon Greyjoy's rebellion) they could make a series with a few episodes devoted to each.

It mightn't be necessary - maybe George will have the last 2 books out inside 6 years, but as a contingency it would be easily workable.

Sleepy

If you pitched that as a series of one episode stories á la the old Twilight Zone series, George R.R. Martin would be even longer finishing the books: because he'd jump at it. It's exactly the kind of thing he loves himself.

Mickeroo

Just finished ADWD, utterly utterly sickened with

Jon's last chapter, i don't think he's dead but if he is I might officially be sick of the lack of pay off in the series. I refuse to believe he's actually dead though. I'm convinced he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and his story isn't finished.

The extra Theon chapter from the next book just left me more confused, I can only assume the letter from Ramsey was fake and designedto make Jon do something stupid.

Pretty annoyed we never went back to

Davos after he left White Harbour

Overall I enjoyed AFFC and ADWD but i can't shake the feeling that splitting them didn't really help matters. Also having the 2 streams rejoin in Dance totally killed the pacing for me (apart from Victarions), they could easily have had those Chapters at the end of a Feast for Crows.

Still plenty to look forward to in WOW though I suppose. Was there really 6 years between AFFC and ADWD? THat worries me considering Martin says in his letter at the end of AFFC he practically had ADWD already written and would be out within a year.

Sleepy

Yep, it's a worry alright.

I'm currently re-reading the two books in chronological order (about 2/3rds of the way through each book alternating chapters where a fan has re-ordered the books chapters into a single chrnonologically correct order) and I have to say, so far, I think the story benefits from it.

Mickeroo

Sleepy wrote: »

Yep, it's a worry alright.

I'm currently re-reading the two books in chronological order (about 2/3rds of the way through each book alternating chapters where a fan has re-ordered the books chapters into a single chrnonologically correct order) and I have to say, so far, I think the story benefits from it.

I'm not sure I have that in me just yet might be something to do after Winds of Winter comes out.

Sleepy

Ah, there was a fair gap from reading them the previous time. I'd devoured A Dance of Dragons in the couple of days after it's midnight release so not all of it quite sank in and other parts I'd completely forgotten as I probably read them when sleep deprived!

ArmaniJeanss

Sleepy wrote: »

Ah, there was a fair gap from reading them the previous time. I'd devoured A Dance of Dragons in the couple of days after it's midnight release so not all of it quite sank in and other parts I'd completely forgotten as I probably read them when sleep deprived!

I did almost the complete opposite. Waited until this year to start it, then limited myself to one chapter a day and a max of three chapters a week, just to soak it all in and enjoy it. And after each chapter I spend some time reading the 'Still reading - chapter by chapter' section on the ASOIAF forum just to see other peoples opinions.

Just two chapters and the epilogue left. :mad:

Mickeroo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I did almost the complete opposite. Waited until this year to start it, then limited myself to one chapter a day and a max of three chapters a week, just to soak it all in and enjoy it. And after each chapter I spend some time reading the 'Still reading - chapter by chapter' section on the ASOIAF forum just to see other peoples opinions.

Just two chapters and the epilogue left. :mad:

There should be another Theon chapter from the next book after the epilogue and appendices if you have the same version I do.

Frank Black

Just finished episode 7 of Season 2.
I'm quite surprised at the amount of deviation from the second novel given how faithfully season 1 followed the source material. In general however, I can see why the writers have made most of the alterations.

The scenes between Arya and Tywin are fantastic. Both actors are superb and the whole father/daughter relationship between the two is played perfectly.
Some of the other changes were obviously made to cut down on the running time or to remove some of the more minor characters. I was suprised that the Reeds didn't show up.


From reading the thread I was a bit surprised at the shock most readers felt at how the

The Red Wedding

panned out in Book 3 - I always felt when reading the book that it was building up to something nasty at that point.