Cisgender privelege

Annasopra

I came across this today. I found it really interesting. At the start I found myself questioning some of them thinking yes but that's not strictly true because - anyway then I realised that in some senses I was reinforcing the "privilege" by denying it.

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/

wonderfulname

How did you find yourself questioning it?

Annasopra

wonderfulname wrote: »

How did you find yourself questioning it?

A few of them made we think - well - that's not strictly true and then kind of thinking well such and such can happen etc.

wonderfulname

Apologies, that came out wrong, what and how so would be more accurate. There are aspects in that that apply to other groups in society too, and there are trans people who aren't affected by all of them, but in general yeah, trans people have to deal with a lot of stuff others don't on a daily basis.

Could someone define privilege for me in this context? To me that's not privilege, not all of it anyway, for example I'd agree many LGB hold a privileged position over T but I'd call someone smirking at a drivers licence a phobe.

xsiborg

i read that article in the OP (might be helpful if we could copy and paste some of the questions here?), and i as a cisgender male found some of the privileges contained within the article are not strictly limited to transgendered persons.

i know it was more concerned with pointing out the privileges of cisgendered persons, but some of the points the author makes have little to do with sexuality or gender identity, and a lot more to do with one's personality.

for example, the first point alone-

Use public restrooms without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest

takes no account of the fact that cisgendered persons too can face the same verbal, physical or intimidatory abuse, albeit from a different perspective. one example of this alone is "penis envy"- do you "measure up" to the guy standing at the urinal next to you, etc.

this article merely states 32 examples, with the 33rd being a suggestion to leave more examples in the comments. i havent time right now to read the comments as i find commentaries on most articles on the internet usually descend at some point into back and forth bítching with no useful information to add to the article, but my point being that i could come up with at least another 30+ examples of cisgender insecurities by way of rebuttal to what the author of this article sees as cisgender "privileges".

transgender identity is a fairly new concept for most people, and you cannot avoid ignorance, because people instinctively fear what they dont understand, and therefore find it difficult to show tolerance, thereby rejecting the concept of GID. society does not change overnight, but it evolves over time, and i am sure that given time, society WILL evolve to a point where a transgender person in company or otherwise, doesnt have an eyelid batted at them, but this show of indifference will unfortunately do nothing to resolve that individuals inner insecurities. that is something they will have to learn to resolve within themselves.

Annasopra

wonderfulname wrote: »

Apologies, that came out wrong, what and how so would be more accurate. There are aspects in that that apply to other groups in society too, and there are trans people who aren't affected by all of them, but in general yeah, trans people have to deal with a lot of stuff others don't on a daily basis.

Could someone define privilege for me in this context? To me that's not privilege, not all of it anyway, for example I'd agree many LGB hold a privileged position over T but I'd call someone smirking at a drivers licence a phobe.

Here's a definition of cisgender privelege

"cisgender privilege" has recently appeared in the academic literature and is defined there as the "set of unearned advantages that individuals who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth accrue solely due to having a cisgender identity.

wonderfulname

In all fairness is is pretty **** to come out of a bathroom stall to some enraged drunken bint standing over you yelling "eeh what are YOU doing in here!", not quite the same as being worried your member doesn't size up, it's a fear based in reality, I've taken a lot of crap in bathrooms, generally at about 2 in the morning mind you, at least I just have to open my mouth for them to back off.

Captain Graphite

mango salsa wrote: »

I came across this today. I found it really interesting. At the start I found myself questioning some of them thinking yes but that's not strictly true because - anyway then I realised that in some senses I was reinforcing the "privilege" by denying it.

Surely you're free to disagree with any of those points without telling yourself "oh I must be wrong because I'm cisgender and therefore too privileged to agree fully"?

I really REALLY hate the word "privilege". It just reeks of superiority and psuedo-academic jargon. Being constantly told how "privileged" I am for being a white able-bodied male feels like an attempt to make me feel guilty about that, as if I was somehow responsible for not being more disadvantaged in life. Found a post on tumblr (sixth post down) that sums up my feelings towards that word. Incidentally it's nigh on impossible to debate with someone on the merits of privilege with proponents of that term, because if you disagree with anything they say they'll inevitably respond with "oh you only don't see it because you're just too privileged." :rolleyes:

Anyway, as for the article itself, this post in the comments section would sum up how I feel:

This article is well-meaning, and enlightening to many I'm sure. But unfortunately it overstates the advantages to cisgender people, at least some of whom are affected by some of these problems as well. e.g.:
- Many cisgender women get gawked at and harassed on the street.
- Many cisgender gay people have also experienced harassment and violence for simply trying to express their sexuality or relationship status in public.
- Plenty of cisgendered people get used as a punchline by Hollywood, such as fat people, members of minority ethnic groups, and people with disabilities.

My only point is this: society is not divided into two groups, 'privileged people' and 'oppressed people'. It's a complex network of intersectional prejudices, and many people are affected by more than one. Yes, *generally speaking*, all else being equal, transgendered people have it worse off, but don't assume all cisgendered people are having such an awesome time either.

In general, cis people have an easier time in life than trans people. But not every cis person has it easier than every trans person, so I find referring to those people as "privileged" rather insensitive. And I'd take the exact same view when it comes to so-called male/female privilege, black/white privilege, human/ameoba privilege etc.

wonderfulname

mango salsa wrote: »

Here's a definition of cisgender privelege

"cisgender privilege" has recently appeared in the academic literature and is defined there as the "set of unearned advantages that individuals who identify as the gender they were assigned at birth accrue solely due to having a cisgender identity.

So in this context not being discriminated against is a privilege? I'm purely talking sematics, the concept of the privileged majority is one I tend to struggle with.

Annasopra

Captain Graphite wrote: »

Surely you're free to disagree with any of those points without telling yourself "oh I must be wrong because I'm cisgender and therefore too privileged to agree fully"?

I really REALLY hate the word "privilege". It just reeks of superiority and psuedo-academic jargon. Being constantly told how "privileged" I am for being a white able-bodied male feels like an attempt to make me feel guilty about that, as if I was somehow responsible for not being more disadvantaged in life. Found a post on tumblr (sixth post down) that sums up my feelings towards that word. Incidentally it's nigh on impossible to debate with someone on the merits of privilege with proponents of that term, because if you disagree with anything they say they'll inevitably respond with "oh you only don't see it because you're just too privileged." :rolleyes:

Anyway, as for the article itself, this post in the comments section would sum up how I feel:


In general, cis people have an easier time in life than trans people. But not every cis person has it easier than every trans person, so I find referring to those people as "privileged" rather insensitive. And I'd take the exact same view when it comes to so-called male/female privilege, black/white privilege, human/ameoba privilege etc.

I look at things at how they affect groups of people based on a group identity not as individuals. Yes of course some individual trans people have it easier in life but in general as a group they don't.

I actually think that I've completely changed in life since I've discovered the whole concept of privelege. For me it's about societal dominance and actually recognising it is a tool with which to begin creating a more egalitarian society. I have at times noticed how I used my own privileges without realising it and at several times in the last few years I have stood back and not allowed my own privelege to give me certain things based on my identity.

xsiborg

wonderfulname wrote: »

In all fairness is is pretty **** to come out of a bathroom stall to some enraged drunken bint standing over you yelling "eeh what are YOU doing in here!", not quite the same as being worried your member doesn't size up, it's a fear based in reality, I've taken a lot of crap in bathrooms, generally at about 2 in the morning mind you, at least I just have to open my mouth for them to back off.

i dont mean to come across as argumentative or insensitive wonderfulname, but the suggestion that "penis envy" is a fear NOT based in reality, is somewhat dismissive, when for some people, it can become a crippling fixation, based very much in reality, a fear which can very much color their perception of what is reality and what is realistic.

to suggest that cisgendered people havent taken hassle at two o clock in the morning in a club, now in fairness, is that truly unique to transgender people? i would respectfully contend that it is far from a unique phenomenon.

im also trying to follow mango's line of thought on the concept of what is a privilege, but im with Captain Graphite on this one. this isnt so much about privileges as it is about discrimination, and there's no denying that certainly there are advantages to being cisgendered over transgendered, but as Captain Graphite says- this isnt something that a cisgendered person as an individual should be made to feel guilty about.

what needs to happen moreso in my opinion is that a greater understanding of what it is to be transgender, needs to be fostered in society if we are to eliminate discrimination and ignorance.

Annasopra

xsiborg wrote: »

what needs to happen moreso in my opinion is that a greater understanding of what it is to be transgender, needs to be fostered in society if we are to eliminate discrimination and ignorance.

I don't see how making people aware of the priveleges that they actually have as cisgender persons does not do that.

this isnt something that a cisgendered person as an individual should be made to feel guilty about.

I don't see privilege as anything to do with guilt I see it as a way of identifying societal inequality and starting the process of breaking down ineqaulities

xsiborg

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't see how making people aware of the priveleges that they actually have as cisgender persons does not do that.

quite simply mango because you're only making them "aware" of something they took for granted already and never saw it as a privilege in the first place. they'd only see it as a privilege if it's something they were inherently aware of, like the fact that someone earns more money than them. you aren't going to change the attitude of the majority by telling them they should be "grateful" for the privileges bestowed upon them due to circumstances inherently beyond their control, but you can help them to understand the needs of others, and to be more mindful of showing tolerance and understanding towards others they perceive as being "underprivileged", for want of a better word (you see how the word "underprivileged" doesnt even suit the context of this discussion now? because we associate the word underprivileged with the economically disadvantaged).

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't see privilege as anything to do with guilt I see it as a way of identifying societal inequality and starting the process of breaking down ineqaulities

rather than "breaking down" inequalities, i personally prefer to use positive terminology like "building bridges" and raising the standard of the quality of life for transgendered persons. articles like that in the OP do nothing to foster understanding of what it is to be transgender. all it has in fact done for me is highlight the fact that we as a society have a long way to go before the transgender community realises that cisgender persons are not their enemy, and this is not an "us (as in the transgender community) against society" argument. transgender persons are met with the same discrimination in the same way as anyone of any race, color or creed is perceived as "different" from cultural or societal or even peer group "norms". they are not singled out for "special discrimination" as such, they perceive this discrimination based on their own insecurities about themselves, in the same way a cisgender person perceives discrimination and prejudice, albeit as i alluded to earlier, on a different level, or because of what they perceive as different from their perception of the norm, about themselves, if that makes sense?

i am just of the opinion that the transgender community should be talking about what they have in common with cisgender people and not focussing on what makes them "different" (and i dont mean that term in a derogatory fashion, i mean it in the sense that to me, the author of this article alone, almost strains to come up with examples of what separates and segregates a transgender person from a normatively cisgender society, whereas in my opinion, the focus of the transgender community should be on what they have in common with a cisgender society, and bridge the gaps where they exist with helping people understand what it is to be transgender, thereby negating the focus on their differences).

Shakti

Doesn't the thinking on cisgender privilege stem from thinking on gender inequality that is to say 'cisgender privilege' is a 'gender inequality' but alongside that 'CP' is a binary and a narrow way of viewing gender and basing privileges upon that view as are the customs of the time and geography/social/political etc.
TBH I can't even its deconstruction see it's absence from our lives and a transgender person especially one transitioning in the workplace will see gender inequality based on gender as well as the binary gender inequality or 'cisgender privelege', or +/-30% pay and you cant stand up/sit down to pee.

Annasopra

xsiborg wrote: »

quite simply mango because you're only making them "aware" of something they took for granted already and never saw it as a privilege in the first place. they'd only see it as a privilege if it's something they were inherently aware of, like the fact that someone earns more money than them. you aren't going to change the attitude of the majority by telling them they should be "grateful" for the privileges bestowed upon them due to circumstances inherently beyond their control, but you can help them to understand the needs of others, and to be more mindful of showing tolerance and understanding towards others they perceive as being "underprivileged", for want of a better word (you see how the word "underprivileged" doesnt even suit the context of this discussion now? because we associate the word underprivileged with the economically disadvantaged).

I see it very very differently. I do not in any way see this as telling someone that they should be grateful that they are cisgender. I see this as pointing out that because people are cisgender there are ways in which they are treated much better by society. I see this as making a person aware of how they are treated better in society because they are cisgender.

xsiborg wrote: »

rather than "breaking down" inequalities, i personally prefer to use positive terminology like "building bridges" and raising the standard of the quality of life for transgendered persons. .

To me "breaking down inequalities" is a positive and affirming use of terminology. I believe in equality. That means removing barriers to equality and breaking down inequality. "Building bridges" doesn't mean much to me at all

xsiborg wrote: »

articles like that in the OP do nothing to foster understanding of what it is to be transgender. .

Fair enough for you personally it doesn't. I actually learned quite a lot from it.

xsiborg wrote: »

all it has in fact done for me is highlight the fact that we as a society have a long way to go before the transgender community realises that cisgender persons are not their enemy, and this is not an "us (as in the transgender community) against society" argument. .

I think you are reading some sort of self victimisation thing into the article that simply is not there at all.

xsiborg wrote: »

transgender persons are met with the same discrimination in the same way as anyone of any race, color or creed is perceived as "different" from cultural or societal or even peer group "norms". they are not singled out for "special discrimination" as such, they perceive this discrimination based on their own insecurities about themselves, in the same way a cisgender person perceives discrimination and prejudice, albeit as i alluded to earlier, on a different level, or because of what they perceive as different from their perception of the norm, about themselves, if that makes sense?

No. It doesn't make sense to me at all. I vehemently disagree with it and would even go so far as saying it is somewhat insulting. There are specific types of discrimination that transgender face that most other groups in society never face. It's nothing to do with "special discrimination" It's about transphobia being a particular type of discrimination. With regard to the second part I do think it is a bit insulting to say that trans people just perceive and imagine discrimination.

xsiborg wrote: »

i am just of the opinion that the transgender community should be talking about what they have in common with cisgender people and not focussing on what makes them "different" (and i dont mean that term in a derogatory fashion, i mean it in the sense that to me, the author of this article alone, almost strains to come up with examples of what separates and segregates a transgender person from a normatively cisgender society, whereas in my opinion, the focus of the transgender community should be on what they have in common with a cisgender society, and bridge the gaps where they exist with helping people understand what it is to be transgender, thereby negating the focus on their differences).

I can see the benefits of both approaches. I do think wider society does need to understand trans issus more and part of that is about recognising and understanding differences. To me the concept of equality embraces diversity.

Pedant

I didn't quite understand this one:

14. You have the ability to not be profiled on the street as a sex worker because of your gender expression.

Again, don't understand this one:

15. You are not required to undergo an extensive psychological evaluation in order to receive basic medical care.

In relation to the following, "Gay panic" can and and has been used against cisgender LGBs, so this is not confined to transgender people:

16. If you are murdered (or have any crime committed against you), your gender expression will not be used as a justification for your murder (“gay panic”) nor as a reason to coddle the perpetrators.

In relation to the following, cisgender LGBs have been used as a source of ridicule in films too, so again, not confined to transgender people.

18. Hollywood accurately depicts people of your gender in films and television, and does not solely make your identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.

Is relation to the following, there are misunderstandings all the time about cisgender LGBs sexuality and some people are led to believe there are "confused, misled or hell-bound" too when they come out of the closet. So again, this isn't just confined to transgender people.

19. Be able to assume that everyone you encounter will understand your identity, and not think you’re confused, misled, or hell-bound when you reveal it to them.

I don't see how the following would apply only to transgender people. I'm sure there are plenty of people both cisgender and transgender would have to do the same. It's really a non-issue.

21. Being able to purchase shoes that fit your gender expression without having to order them in special sizes or asking someone to custom-make them.

In relation to the following, many cisgender LBGs have to go through the same when they come out of the closet.

28. You don’t have to convince your parents of your true gender and/or have to earn your parents’ and siblings’ love and respect all over again.

Annasopra

Pedant wrote: »

I didn't quite understand this one:

Again, don't understand this one:

In relation to the following, "Gay panic" can and and has been used against cisgender LGBs, so this is not confined to transgender people:

In relation to the following, cisgender LGBs have been used as a source of ridicule in films too, so again, not confined to transgender people.

Is relation to the following, there are misunderstandings all the time about cisgender LGBs sexuality and some people are led to believe there are "confused, misled or hell-bound" too when they come out of the closet. So again, this isn't just confined to transgender people.

I don't see how the following would apply only to transgender people. I'm sure there are plenty of people both cisgender and transgender would have to do the same. It's really a non-issue.

In relation to the following, many cisgender LBGs have to go through the same when they come out of the closet.

I don't think anyone said ONLY transgender people go through everything on the list. With regard to the last one I think it's much more difficult to come out as trans (at the moment) and I don't think they are easily comparable.