TCD vs UCD

kathryn 95

Hi all,
I dont know if i have this in the right forum but maybe some of you guys may help I am quite interested in the Science course at TCD but I saw that they have the exact same course at UCD as well. I can't decide which one to put down on my CAO first, at the moment i have TCD first but which is the better college?
Any help greatly appreciated!

whendovescry

I think in UCD you have to choose your specific field earlier than in trinity (possibly before you start) whereas in here you specialize after two years, so in that regard you have more leeway. Also it was announced today that Trinity is in the top 100 in the world in Physics/mathematics, Chemistry and biological sciences which is pretty good. Its horses for courses at the end of the day though.

Actor

Troll thread warning!

But seriously, Trinity is falling behind in terms of facilities and I'd say that within the next ten years, UCD will out-rank Trinity.

Trinity just don't have the space/facilities that UCD have. You can only live off the legend for so long. Sooner or later, those attracted to academic life will see UCD as the go-to place.

Jammyc

Here are just a few of the many threads on this topic:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59860446
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63106729
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75634397

Also, here is a general UCD or Trinity thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056600065

And here is the current thread for people studying/interested in studying Science.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055649595

Lisandro

Actor wrote: »

Troll thread warning!

But seriously, Trinity is falling behind in terms of facilities and I'd say that within the next ten years, UCD will out-rank Trinity.

Trinity just don't have the space/facilities that UCD have. You can only live off the legend for so long. Sooner or later, those attracted to academic life will see UCD as the go-to place.

I see. For all this "UCD will usurp Trinity" rhetoric that we hear every few years, I find it rather interesting that it never actually happens. It reminds me of the way Liverpool fans tell us Utd fans that the next time they get some investment in their squad, they're going to leave us trailing in their shadow, as if somehow money spent is the only thing that matters in determining quality.

Tut tut. What an unoriginal troll. And I bet he's a Liverpool fan too. Get back under the bridge and wear your Ian Rush pajamas.

NeuroCat

Actor wrote: »

Troll thread warning!

But seriously, Trinity is falling behind in terms of facilities and I'd say that within the next ten years, UCD will out-rank Trinity.

Trinity just don't have the space/facilities that UCD have. You can only live off the legend for so long. Sooner or later, those attracted to academic life will see UCD as the go-to place.

In what way does Trinity not have the facilities that UCD has? Trinity just invested in a new Biosciences building with state of the art equipment. The Immunology department was ranked 3rd in the world in 2010. I smell a troll...

Lisandro

NeuroCat wrote: »

In what way does Trinity not have the facilities that UCD has? Trinity just invested in a new Biosciences building with state of the art equipment. The Immunology department was ranked 3rd in the world in 2010. I smell a troll...

In all fairness, he did flag it at the start of his post like a good little troll. Trouble is, it kind of stopped anyone from really biting. If he'd told us he was a UCD student, we'd believe him!

Actor

NeuroCat wrote: »

In what way does Trinity not have the facilities that UCD has? Trinity just invested in a new Biosciences building with state of the art equipment. The Immunology department was ranked 3rd in the world in 2010. I smell a troll...

Eh, compare that to UCD's new science centre - the largest single biggest investment in science in the history of the State. Will be opening in another year or two.

NeuroCat

Actor wrote: »

Eh, compare that to UCD's new science centre - the largest single biggest investment in science in the history of the State. Will be opening in another year or two.

If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas...

oppenheimer1

Go to which ever is closer or is more convenient to get to, or where your friends are going. At undergraduate level there is zero difference between UCD and TCD - and that goes across all subjects and departments.

gutenberg

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Go to which ever is closer or is more convenient to get to, or where your friends are going. At undergraduate level there is zero difference between UCD and TCD - and that goes across all subjects and departments.

Hmmm I wouldn't agree with that, in the arts & humanities TCD is much better than UCD, even just in terms of things like class sizes and library facilities (which are crucial for A+H people).

OP the advice on this thread is good: research particularly the later stages of each course and see the specialisms and so on that are on offer, and see if one or the other appeals on that basis. After that, consider issues such as how easy both are to get to for you, societies/sports clubs/student life etc. I presume this is to start in 2013? If so you've loads of time!

ride-the-spiral

There is not zero difference. Although for job or postgrad consideration which degree you did may not make much difference, there can be a big difference in what you study depending on which college you go to. I know one of the reasons I didn't go to UCD is because I thought the credits allocated to the elective system (Horizons is it?) would take away from my final degree.

And I know for theoretical physics there are more obvious examples with TCD doing Quantum Field Theory and Yang-Mills Theory in 4th year.

languagenerd

gutenberg wrote: »

Hmmm I wouldn't agree with that, in the arts & humanities TCD is much better than UCD, even just in terms of things like class sizes and library facilities (which are crucial for A+H people).

+1
I think the arts courses in TCD are better than in UCD (from personal experience, friends' stories and people I know who switched from one to the other). I think the UCD Arts course is far more vague than the TCD ones, with a lot of chopping and changing of subjects (which may appeal to some people, not me though). Plus class sizes are a huge plus - my biggest class this year was 40 people, with most of my classes being less than 15. TCD arts departments mark very hard though, don't know if that sways you or not!

I have heard that business subjects are done better in UCD though, and that the Science specialities are quite different in each.
All depends what you're looking for, in fairness.

Actor, this is the second thread I've seen you post that in. The last time, it was sports facilities, now it's academic. Care to explain your theory further?

jan shyr

Go to which ever is closer or is more convenient to get to, or where your friends are going. At undergraduate level there is zero difference between UCD and TCD - and that goes across all subjects and departments.

I have to agree. Travel can affect your grades and other things as well, so choose the one which takes less time to travel to. As for which one is better, I know for sure that you can easily pull off (simply because not that many people are applying) a summer project after third year and possibly after second year which give you a nice bit of much needed experience. Not sure if it is the same in TCD.

oppenheimer1

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

There is not zero difference. Although for job or postgrad consideration which degree you did may not make much difference, there can be a big difference in what you study depending on which college you go to. I know one of the reasons I didn't go to UCD is because I thought the credits allocated to the elective system (Horizons is it?) would take away from my final degree.

And I know for theoretical physics there are more obvious examples with TCD doing Quantum Field Theory and Yang-Mills Theory in 4th year.

At the end of the day, the bold bit is all that really matters. If the two courses are the same, then the college chosen will make absolutely no difference to your future prospects. The quality of the different departments only comes into play at postgraduate level where facilities and specialities are really evident. In Ireland you are unlikely to gain an advantage by doing an undergraduate course in a specific Irish university over another. This is unlike the UK, where there are real differences in quality between golden triangle/russell group universities, red bricks, plate glass and former polys at undergratuate level.

Yes, the library in TCD is better, it is a UK copyright library after all. However undergraduates in UCD will have all the materials they need to undertake their courses in their own library. Choose your university based on access, student experience, horizons/broad curriculum etc. You do not need to make a choice on percieved notions of quality, because at your level, they really are both the same (decent quality, thankfully).

I say that as a TCD student.

EuropeanSon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Go to which ever is closer or is more convenient to get to, or where your friends are going. At undergraduate level there is zero difference between UCD and TCD - and that goes across all subjects and departments.

You are talking nonsense here. Perhaps that is true across most departments, but there are certainly exceptions, notably in Mathematics and TP in Trinity, and (from what I've heard) Business courses in UCD. Certainly the Maths degrees you can get from TCD are far better than anything you can get from UCD.

oppenheimer1

EuropeanSon wrote: »

You are talking nonsense here. Perhaps that is true across most departments, but there are certainly exceptions, notably in Mathematics and TP in Trinity, and (from what I've heard) Business courses in UCD. Certainly the Maths degrees you can get from TCD are far better than anything you can get from UCD.

The acid test of your argument is that with all other things being equal, would a person with a II.II degree in maths from Trinity, get a job or postgraduate place ahead of someone with a II.I degree (or even a II.II degree) from UCD.


I doubt it.

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

EuropeanSon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The acid test of your argument is that with all other things being equal, would a person with a II.II degree in maths from Trinity, get a job or postgraduate place ahead of someone with a II.I degree (or even a II.II degree) from UCD.


I doubt it.

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

You are entitled to doubt it all you like (given your lack of any knowledge on the matter, or at least your failure to make any you do have clear, forgive me if I don't care), but I would say yes possibly to the former, and yes definitely to the latter.

Certainly for postgrad places, a first or 2:1 from TCD is considerably better than one from UCD. (Let me stress to anyone reading this without context, I am referring strictly to Maths related degrees here, and not in general to TCD vs UCD degrees)

Lisandro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

I think you'll find that degrees from some universities carry a lot more weight than a degree from another university. It is the reason I would be somewhat more likely to get employed/further studies if I graduate with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge as opposed to an equivalent degree with DIT or IADT (with all due respect to those two institutions).


The point is the institution from which you get a degree isn't arbitrary; this is a direct result of competition between universities to provide the best education and facilities for its students. Trinity College as of 2011 was ranked the 15th best in the world when it comes to mathematics. UCD meanwhile was ranked in the top 150.


Once again, with all due respect to UCD, there is a vast disproportionality between those rankings to the extent that an employer/institution cannot plausibly ignore them. That is the way these things work in the real world, in case you thought this was all just an arrogant assertion of personal opinion.

oppenheimer1

Lisandro wrote: »

I think you'll find that degrees from some universities carry a lot more weight than a degree from another university. It is the reason I would be somewhat more likely to get employed/further studies if I graduate with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge as opposed to an equivalent degree with DIT or IADT (with all due respect to those two institutions).


The point is the institution from which you get a degree isn't arbitrary; this is a direct result of competition between universities to provide the best education and facilities for its students. Trinity College as of 2011 was ranked the 15th best in the world when it comes to mathematics. UCD meanwhile was ranked in the top 150.


Once again, with all due respect to UCD, there is a vast disproportionality between those rankings to the extent that an employer/institution cannot plausibly ignore them. That is the way these things work in the real world, in case you thought this was all just an arrogant assertion of personal opinion.

If you cared to read my other posts, you would have noticed that I did say that there was an appreciable difference in quality across universities in the UK. The university sector over there is much broader however. There is some real difference in quality say between the golden triangle/russell group and the former polys, but much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class. Yes employers are sensitive to it. Thet are also sensitive to the a degree from a university over an institute of technology or new private college here too unfortunately. The 7 universities don't suffer from such prejudices though.

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc. Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none. A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

Lisandro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

...much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class...

To suggest that employers/institutions judge based on heritage and class, but not on the reputation and quality of that department is somewhat myopic to the way these processes work. They take into account a broad selection of criteria, and if an academic department is inside the top twenty in any internationally recognised university rankings, employers have a good reason to sit up and take notice. It is not the only nor the most important criteria, but to suggest it doesn't even register is to deny the impact of differences in quality between departments. Even if your assertion were true, the international reputation and history of Trinity alone should surely pander to that prejudice.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc.

Well, these parameters do have an effect on the way a department is perceived. Academic output, papers, etc. suggest a very productive department with not only active staff but active students as well, as most institutions have a range of internships and research programmes that involve students. Employers and institutions are to some extent self-interested and selection of graduates isn't arbitrary; the fact is a department with a high standard of output will generally have a high standard of internal quality, and this isn't a factor that's ignored.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none.

Well, they can't really test the teaching short of attending lectures themselves, so that's understandable. The chances are, however, that a department full of Fields medals is pretty damn good and the lecturers are probably bringing a depth of quality that you're unlikely to get anywhere else. It's also quite well known that the maths department offers very advanced modules, in pure mathematics and in theoretical physics, particularly with respect to analysis, where the maths department has a strong reputation for excellence. Even if the rankings didn't reflect this, the general standard of teaching in the department is not a secret.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

That is predicated on the rather false assumption that a high quality of research work and undergraduate teaching are mutually exclusive. There are almost as many counterexamples to this as there are top universities.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

Really, is our assessment that outlandish? In general, I can acknowledge that differences between departments in universities aren't that appreciable, but the difference in reputation as far as the maths department is concerned is particularly pronounced.

EuropeanSon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you cared to read my other posts, you would have noticed that I did say that there was an appreciable difference in quality across universities in the UK. The university sector over there is much broader however. There is some real difference in quality say between the golden triangle/russell group and the former polys, but much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class. Yes employers are sensitive to it. Thet are also sensitive to the a degree from a university over an institute of technology or new private college here too unfortunately. The 7 universities don't suffer from such prejudices though.

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc. Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none. A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

You are repeating yourself, and providing no basis for your argument. This discussion is no longer useful.

Enkidu

EuropeanSon wrote: »

You are entitled to doubt it all you like (given your lack of any knowledge on the matter, or at least your failure to make any you do have clear, forgive me if I don't care), but I would say yes possibly to the former, and yes definitely to the latter.

For the vast majority of mathematics masters and PhDs a 2:1 or 1:1 from practically anywhere is superior to a 2:2 from practically anywhere else. You are mainly judged based on the interview (if you are asked for one), personal statement and overall degree results. I know of a case (physics research at Oxford) where a UCD student with a good degree got a position instead of a TCD student with a lower degree result.

Trinity is the best university for research in Ireland in most fields, but an undergraduate is not really affecting their postgraduate opportunities by doing a degree elsewhere.

Lisandro

Enkidu wrote: »

Trinity is the best university for research in Ireland in most fields, but an undergraduate is not really affecting their postgraduate opportunities by doing a degree elsewhere.

Yes. I think it should be emphasised for anyone who's skimmed down to the bottom that the discussion about reputation and how that affects the perceptions of employers and institutions is generally overshadowed by personal factors, such as approach, enthusiasm, evidence of engagement beyond what is normally encountered in the degree. Reputation normally can only be observed when all else is equal.