UK Freeview and the 4G Disaster

mike65

Well certainly an annoyance - millions of Freeview viewers will have to fork out around 200 quid to have filters installed on their boxes if they live within 4 km of a 4G transmitter. Freesat should see an opportunity here!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/millions-will-have-to-pay-to-get-freeview-tv-7899834.html

Sponge Bob

Exactly the same thing will happen here. The sudden change to channel 30 on 3Rock was timed to avoid a FIFTH of the population of Ireland suffering from interference from 4G transmission.

Except that here it will be worse. Far thinner 4G coverage , fewer cells and weaker networks will lead to absolute chaos.

STB

Spectrum control lies with Comreg.

Any such licensing of that adjacent bandwidth should carry conditions that the 4g operator provides the filters.

It wont wash here.

In the UK there is another agenda to move towards cable.

winston_1

This was written by journalists who, as usual, have no idea of the technology involved. Existing mobile networks use the 900MHz band which causes no problems. Using the 800MHz band may cause problems on ch 59, or 60 only.

The over £200 was for flat dwellers and is, I assume, a charge for the whole block distribution system not individual flat dwellers.

Lets wait and see what happens in practice rather than let a load of hacks cause panic.

lawhec

winston_1 wrote: »

This was written by journalists who, as usual, have no idea of the technology involved. Existing mobile networks use the 900MHz band which causes no problems. Using the 800MHz band may cause problems on ch 59, or 60 only.

The over £200 was for flat dwellers and is, I assume, a charge for the whole block distribution system not individual flat dwellers.

Lets wait and see what happens in practice rather than let a load of hacks cause panic.

900MHz networks generally cause few/no problems, but a lot of that is down to most tuners not being designed to receive beyond 860MHz, particularly since these frequencies have been used by mobiles since the 1980's and manufacturers will have been ensuring that potential interference to the (current) highest UHF broadcast frequencies is minimised.

However once the new 800MHz mobile comms block is being rolled out, current tuners are not designed to reject these frequencies - therefore with the lower part of these frequencies for mobile comms use dedicated to downlink from base station to mobile phone, there could be problems where an 800MHz LTE base station is close by. Those who are using wideband amplifiers have a bigger potential to be affected, in a similar way to how TETRA interference can cause problems on lower UHF broadcast frequencies.

I'd suspect some areas which receive E60 could be prone to this problem, maybe E59 as well. However in places like Australia and New Zealand where 850MHz mobile networks have been in use for some time and TV tuners generally are those similar to those used in Europe, I can't recall too many problems. I'd say through an educated guess is there will be some people with problems, but not a huge amount. A good low-pass, band-pass or even notch filter should do the trick. In some cases, a notch filter might do the trick and if you know what you're doing you can make one of them simply using a splitter, a Beeling-Lee plug and a small length of coax cable (but it might be no good for TV broadcasts on E59 & 60).

watty

Some Mast amps DO get overloaded by GSM 900 MHz actually. And 450MHz or what ever it is Tetra

The Cush

STB wrote: »

Spectrum control lies with Comreg.

Any such licensing of that adjacent bandwidth should carry conditions that the 4g operator provides the filters.

It wont wash here.

Yes it will, the 4g auction rules are in place. Comreg and the Dept has passed the buck to RTÉNL to inform the public and trade regarding potential interference to DTT from DD LTE services and to the public to rectify any interference problems at their own expense, see this previous thread.

The most recent revisions to RTÉNL's Saorview FAQ includes the following notice throughout the document

The spectrum used for wireless services is becoming more and more congested. This includes the radio spectrum used for television broadcasting which is reducing. As different services are moving closer and closer together cross service interference becomes more of an issue. If you are doing work, or having work done on your television aerial, RTÉNL recommend that you ensure that the aerial is restricted, in so far as is possible, to the television broadcast band only (UHF channel 21 to 60). To protect your television services against interference into the future frequencies / channels above and below this should be filtered out.

restive

Sorry to ask such a basic question but when will the auction actually take place? When will we actually see 4g services become available?

I know the auction was meant to be this summer, but this all seems torturously slow!

The Cush

The process is already underway, information here - http://www.comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/application_for_the_award_process.713.1092.html

The new licences, which allow for the mobile network operators to launch 4g services, start on Feburary 1st next. Only the mobile companies know when they'll launch 4g services.

Sponge Bob

Lots of wideband amps around, they amplify and overload the receiver. Remember the fun with Tetra at the OTHER end of the UHF band....same thing really. Same solution.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055535555

As nobody here will be above channel 55 in the main (unlike the UK where channels 59 and 60 are in widespread use) a lot of the problems will be caused by crap 4G networks with weak signals and the handsets compensating by increasing power.

This will become obvious, perhaps in 2013, when you bring your first 4G broadband dongle home though.

reslfj

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Lots of wideband amps around, they amplify and overload the receiver. Remember the fun with Tetra at the OTHER end of the UHF band....same thing really. Same solution.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055535555

As nobody here will be above channel 55 in the main (unlike the UK where channels 59 and 60 are in widespread use) a lot of the problems will be caused by crap 4G networks with weak signals and the handsets compensating by increasing power.

This will become obvious, perhaps in 2013, when you bring your first 4G broadband dongle home though.

The 4G/LTE800 will upload using the frequency-band 832-862 MHz, some 42 MHz above channel 60 - needs an inexpensive filter.
This can be a problem with badly shielded TV equipment due to the very short distance from your phone or dongle. It may - and likely will - overload many existing amplified set top aerials. If may also affect some cable-TV systems using the channels 66-69 (= 830-863 MHz).
Almost all upload problems will be due to substandard TV equipment and/or indoor aerials.

The LTE800 download, however, is using the frequency-band 791-821 MHz and can be transmitted from the mobile mast maybe next door with an EIRP ~1kW (up to 1.6kW).

As there is only a 1 MHz gap to channel 60 it can require a special filter after the DTT aerial and before the first amplifier, if channels 60 (and 59 and maybe 58) is used for DTT. This should only be a problem if the LTE800 transmitter is close and/or in the direction of the DTT transmitter.

Yes, it is the same problem as Tetra, but the filter needed will be a little more expensive if you want to receive channel 59-60.

Lars

Sponge Bob

reslfj wrote: »

Yes, it is the same problem as Tetra, but the filter needed will be a little more expensive if you want to receive channel 59-60.

Lars

We won't. plenty of space to stay below 53 on Muxes 1 and 2. Cheap filter if any.

Thanks Lars.

Antenna

STB wrote: »

should carry conditions that the 4g operator provides the filters.

There was no requirement for the TETRA operator to do that here.
There were lots of problems, especially with Ch60 (TV3 in some places) and a lesser extend Ch 59 as these channels were affected by second harmonic generation of TETRA frequencies.

The Cush

We know that in the UK mitigation will have to deal with interference into 3-6 muxes and maybe 1m households and the debate is beginning to heat up over there. Here in Ireland 4g services will start much sooner and there has been very little discussion to date and no planned mitigation measures.

Ed Vaizey, the UK Minister whose area of responsibility includes broadcasting, mobile services etc. was before a Commons Select Committee earlier this week. The discussion included a Q&A on 4g interference to DTT services.

The video of the committee discussion with Ed Vaisey is available here - http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11120. The relevant discussion on 4g starts at 29:00 mins and 52:18 mins.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jul/03/ed-vaizey-4g-impact
http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2188974/government-failing-cover-cost-4g-tv-interference

The Cush

Ed Vaizey this week in a letter to Ofcom pledged additional support to households to meet the costs of installing filters to protect digital TV services from 4G interference.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/news_stories/9193.aspx

Up to that announcement the following support would be offered to affected households
- provision of information
- provision of free filter for the main TV, self-installed (on a active and procative basis)
- platform change where the filter does not work

Following the increasing awareness of the negative effects 4g services could have on DTT households the Dept responsible announced further measures to assist householders this week
- £50 (+VAT) voucher for professional installation of filter to masthead amps of vulnerable households
- where filter does not work assistance to switch to Freesat or cable provider
- if cable/satellite doesn't resolve problem up to £10,000 per household will be available to restore DTT reception

In communal distribution systems, flats etc., only one filter will be available for the landlord to install, no assistance for interference due to inadequate cabling, equipment etc. and no free filters/assistance to individual flats/units,

No assistance for interference to users of set-top/indoor aerials, cable TV equipment or users of 4g handsets close to TVs.

No free filters for the second or more TVs sets in the home but information to be given on how and where to buy filters.

Funding cap will remain at £180 million.

Even though there is an MoU between Ireland and the UK on the 800MHz band if there happens to be any cross border interference either way, to TV services, who'll deal with it?