Racing Flats - who needs them?

HelenAnne

Not that I need a new pair of shoes at the moment (just bought a new pair of my beloved Brooks Ghosts last week), but I was wondering how often would you need to be racing short distances & how fast would you need to be running to get any benefit from racing flats?

light shoes definitely make a difference in running. if you have a reasonably neutral gait you could wear these for 5k and 10k. If you're a very efficient runner you could wear them for 1/2 marathon and even full. Only really needed if you're doing races. If you are doing 2 or 3 5k or 10k or around that distance a year then surely worth having a pair. other option is to have a light pair of shoes that aren't flats - something like the Saucony Kinvara - great for racing and general use.

HelenAnne

glasso wrote: »

Only really needed if you're doing races. If you are doing 2 or 3 5k or 10k or around that distance a year then surely worth having a pair. other option is to have a light pair of shoes that aren't flats - something like the Saucony Kinvara - great for racing and general use.

Hmmm, I probably race enough to get a pair then (I've done about 24 or 25 races of 10k or less this year), but I'm not sure how efficient a runner I am, or if I'm fast enough for them to make a difference. I don't think I'd run 10k in them, I was thinking of them for races of up to about 3 miles. Maybe I'll try on the Kinvaras the next time I'm shoe shopping. Thanks for the suggestion!

menoscemo

HelenAnne wrote: »

Hmmm, I probably race enough to get a pair then (I've done about 24 or 25 races of 10k or less this year), but I'm not sure how efficient a runner I am, or if I'm fast enough for them to make a difference. I don't think I'd run 10k in them, I was thinking of them for races of up to about 3 miles. Maybe I'll try on the Kinvaras the next time I'm shoe shopping. Thanks for the suggestion!

Flats will make a difference to everyone in terms of speed. The shoes are lighter so there is no such thing as 'not being fast enough' to wear flats. In fact the slower you are the more speed they will give you....for the top guys they reckon it can cut about 3-4 seconds/mile off your time, so for slower runners this could translate as 5-6 seconds/mile.

I am far from an elite runner but I would use flats for pretty much every run, from recovery runs to races and have worn them over Ultras. If you normally wear neutral shoes they should cause you little problems. If you normally wear stability shoes you might have to stick with only shorter races (though you can get some flats with support).

Flats are essential just ultra light trainers but many of them have loads of cushioning (like Nike Lunarracers0.

tunguska

HelenAnne wrote: »

Hmmm, I probably race enough to get a pair then (I've done about 24 or 25 races of 10k or less this year), but I'm not sure how efficient a runner I am, or if I'm fast enough for them to make a difference. I don't think I'd run 10k in them, I was thinking of them for races of up to about 3 miles. Maybe I'll try on the Kinvaras the next time I'm shoe shopping. Thanks for the suggestion!

Definitely wear racing flats. You're giving away such an advantage to those around you in races who are wearing them. Even if you're not so efficient right now I'd start wearing them as I found that the more you wear them the more efficient you become. You gotta be careful of course, I mean dont try a half marathon in flats straight off the bat, test them out in a 5 or 10k. Your calves and quads will probably be a bit sore so it would be an idea to schedule a non runnng day the following day.
The kinvaras are training shoes, fairly light ones but still training shoes. For racing you should look in the direction of asics DS racers, Mizuno ronin, Brooks ST5s, or adidas adizeros. Then after a while go for lighter shoes like Brooks T7s

dna_leri

menoscemo wrote: »

Flats will make a difference to everyone in terms of speed. The shoes are lighter so there is no such thing as 'not being fast enough' to wear flats. In fact the slower you are the more speed they will give you....for the top guys they reckon it can cut about 3-4 seconds/mile off your time, so for slower runners this could translate as 5-6 seconds/mile.

I am far from an elite runner but I would use flats for pretty much every run, from recovery runs to races and have worn them over Ultras. If you normally wear neutral shoes they should cause you little problems. If you normally wear stability shoes you might have to stick with only shorter races (though you can get some flats with support).

Flats are essential just ultra light trainers but many of them have loads of cushioning (like Nike Lunarracers0.

I agree with a lot of what Meno says but I am not convinced that the improvement for slower runners is greater than for top guys - it may still only be 3-4 secs /mile.

One benefit of flats, is that they weigh less and therefore being lighter we can run faster. An arguement often made is that for non-elite runners the weight benefit is marginal and that we are better off focusing on losing weight elsewhere.

A secondary benefit of flats is that they promote better mechanics - not them lads that fix your car - but how your body moves. Because they are generally minimalist (low heel to toe drop), you will tend to run less on your heels.

However the downside to flats is that they are generally less supportive and with less cushioning, also because they change the way you run you may find aches and strains. Starting to use racing flats is a bit like transitioning to minimalist shoes - it's not for everyone and needs to be done with care.

In my case I bought my first pair of racing flats last May and wore them in 5 races last year (and 6 training sessions), all 10K or less. Certainly the first few times I felt strains as a result but I think they helped me run faster, but I know I would not have been ready for them before then.

So the real question is not "do I need racing flats" but "am I ready for racing flats" - only you can decide that.

HelenAnne

dna_leri wrote: »

So the real question is not "do I need racing flats" but "am I ready for racing flats" - only you can decide that.

I think I'm not ready, especially not psychologically. I'd feel sort of sheepish putting them on when I'm not a six-minute miler or anything.

Thanks everyone for the info though, I'll definitely consider them in a year or so.

tunguska

HelenAnne wrote: »

I think I'm not ready, especially not psychologically. I'd feel sort of sheepish putting them on when I'm not a six-minute miler or anything.

Thanks everyone for the info though, I'll definitely consider them in a year or so.

Its your choice of course but I think you're allowing yourself to be intimidated a little bit by names and categories of shoes. I wasnt ready either when I tried my first pair of racing shoes, but I took a leap of faith and it worked out just fine. Like I said, its your call but at the same time dont fall into the trap of thinking that you have to feel ready, because a lot of the time you wont feel it. Sure theres risks but there always is when you're trying to progress. I think Brooks ST5 would be a perfect shoe to tip your toe into. They're light enough to be consdered a racing shoe but they have a fair bit of support in them. Honestly I cant imagine you having any problems whatsoever with them. And maybe after a while, when you're a little more confident you could graduate to a lighter shoe.

http://www.brooksrunning.com/Racer-ST-5/100018,default,pd.html

hardCopy

HelenAnne wrote: »

I think I'm not ready, especially not psychologically. I'd feel sort of sheepish putting them on when I'm not a six-minute miler or anything.

Thanks everyone for the info though, I'll definitely consider them in a year or so.

The people in front of you won't see your shoes and the ones behind won't know the difference

RayCun

Give some lighter shoes a go. Even if you don't go all the way down to racing flats, get a pair of shoes that have less cushioning and support, and try them on your next 5k or 10k. If they don't give you trouble (and they almost certainly won't) go down another level and use your medium shoes for faster training sessions.

(I have two pairs of heavier runners, Mizuno Inspire and Brooks Adrenaline, that I use for longer and easier runs, a pair of Mizuno Elixir for club training sessions - and probably the half marathon, and a pair of Mizuno Ronin for races)

RacoonQueen

Brooks ghost are a neutral shoe so you should be fine with a transition from them.

ST5 and adidas tempo are both good flats and have a teeny bit of support in them. You could have a look at the brooks pureproject range as well to take a look at lighter training shoes.

HelenAnne

Thanks everyone. I was reading an article in Runner’s World about racing flats, that’s what sparked my query off. Maybe I will investigate all the shoes recommended in this thread and consider buying a pair. I’ve just bought shoes, so it won’t be for a while though! If & when I do, I’ll definitely try to phase them in gradually over shorter distances. I know it’s different (because you have the soft ground cushioning you) but I actually really like the lightness of my cross country spikes, so maybe I’ll love flats too …

Thanks, everyone!

BobMac104

ha there is nothing like putting on a pair of bright orange shoes for the first time and thinking "these are way faster looking than I am".

Id go along with what meno said above.

antomagoo

tunguska wrote: »

Definitely wear racing flats. You're giving away such an advantage to those around you in races who are wearing them. Even if you're not so efficient right now I'd start wearing them as I found that the more you wear them the more efficient you become. You gotta be careful of course, I mean dont try a half marathon in flats straight off the bat, test them out in a 5 or 10k. Your calves and quads will probably be a bit sore so it would be an idea to schedule a non runnng day the following day.
The kinvaras are training shoes, fairly light ones but still training shoes. For racing you should look in the direction of asics DS racers, Mizuno ronin, Brooks ST5s, or adidas adizeros. Then after a while go for lighter shoes like Brooks T7s

Just asking as I'm a bit green to the techy side of shoes, but what makes the Kinvara a training shoe & the ST5 a racer if the Kinvara is lighter & has smaller heel to toe drop (I think)

Or I suppose the question should be what makes a shoe a racing shoe?

BobMac104

antomagoo wrote: »

Or I suppose the question should be what makes a shoe a racing shoe?

flashy colours!!!

tunguska

antomagoo wrote: »

Just asking as I'm a bit green to the techy side of shoes, but what makes the Kinvara a training shoe & the ST5 a racer if the Kinvara is lighter & has smaller heel to toe drop (I think)

Or I suppose the question should be what makes a shoe a racing shoe?

Yeah the st5s are slightly heavier(240g compared to 215g for kinvara) but Im not so sure about the heel - toe drop, I think ST5s is smaller. Kinvaras are fairly light but they do have a fair bit of cushioning. I mean its probably six of one and half a dozen of the other between the two shoes for what the OP is looking to do. They're both good gateway shoes.

menoscemo

tunguska wrote: »

Yeah the st5s are slightly heavier(240g compared to 215g for kinvara) but Im not so sure about the heel - toe drop, I think ST5s is smaller. Kinvaras are fairly light but they do have a fair bit of cushioning. I mean its probably six of one and half a dozen of the other between the two shoes for what the OP is looking to do. They're both good gateway shoes.

Kinavaras have a 4mm heel to toe drop. http://www.runningwarehouse.com/descpageMRS-SKN3M3.html
St5s have a 12mm heel to toe drop.
http://www.runningwarehouse.com/descpageMRS-BST5M2.html

You won't find many shoes with a lesser heel to toe drop than Kinvaras. You might think they are a trainer but they are lighter and flatter than most racing flats on the market.

thirstywork2

Most racing flats will weight around 230grams or less and your right about the bright colours

Go into a store and try some on and have a test instore if you can.
like alot of running shoes you will get a great feel instantly when you try them on.
everyone has listed a good range there and as Raycun says a performace shoe can be a nice shoe to start with and you can train in it also.
RQ the Tempo isn't a racing flat :rolleyes:

TFBubendorfer

antomagoo wrote: »

Or I suppose the question should be what makes a shoe a racing shoe?

Wikipedia is your friend.

Racing flats are lightweight athletic shoes designed for "long distance" track and field, cross country, and most often, road races. They differ from normal training shoes mainly by the lack of a substantial heel (hence the name). They are also a great deal less durable and typically last half to a quarter of the distance of a normal training shoe (125–250 miles or 200-400 kilometers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_flat

RacoonQueen

thirstywork2 wrote: »

RQ the Tempo isn't a racing flat :rolleyes:

I agree. Adidas and most retailers don't. :P

antomagoo

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Wikipedia is your friend.

Racing flats are lightweight athletic shoes designed for "long distance" track and field, cross country, and most often, road races. They differ from normal training shoes mainly by the lack of a substantial heel (hence the name). They are also a great deal less durable and typically last half to a quarter of the distance of a normal training shoe (125–250 miles or 200-400 kilometers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_flat

Wikipedia is no friend of mine with its half truths like Pat Kenny is from outer space

Saucony Kinvara is a great light shoe full stop. It is cushioned but as also noted by other posters has a low enough heel to toe differential (drop) which will make you more likely to run with a midfoot or forefoot strike than something with a 10mm + difference heel-to-toe. It can be used as a racer and as a training shoe. You won't go much faster in the lightest, flattest racer than you will go in this shoe. Unless you really want to get in barefoot running (0mm drop with very minimal or no cushioning) you can't do much better imo. It's also pretty durable and will last a fair few miles more than a true racing flat.

Pisco Sour

These are the flats I got recently. They are very light which is why I got them for my sprint reps. 160g. I know bugger all about racing flats. Would this be on the extreme lower weight end of the spectrum for racing flats? It's certainly taking me time to get used to having my calves under such pressure for multiple sprint reps in such a short time frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlAcb3jmzk8

Pisco Sour

Pisco Sour wrote: »

These are the flats I got recently. They are very light which is why I got them for my sprint reps. 160g. I know bugger all about racing flats. Would this be on the extreme lower weight end of the spectrum for racing flats? It's certainly taking me time to get used to having my calves under such pressure for multiple sprint reps in such a short time frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlAcb3jmzk8

they are pretty light but there are even lighter shoes out there. for example there is the nike mayfly which is only designed to last 60 miles.

BobMac104

Ah i have been looking to get those but you can't get them in Europe for love nor money. They look like a great flat.

thirstywork2

Mizuno Universe 108 grams

Asics Pirahana 120 grams

Im using the Adidas Haggio which is 170 grams right now.Find them great up to 10k distance so far.

tunguska

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Mizuno Universe 108 grams

Asics Pirahana 120 grams

You've been holding out on me man, We need to talk about these Universe shoes.........

BobMac104

ya but the universes cost a bomb!

RacoonQueen

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Im using the Adidas Haggio which is 170 grams right now.Find them great up to 10k distance so far.

You got them in the shop? Had my eyes on them...

Also, how do you find the universe? They're the mizuno shoes I considered giving mizuno a second chance for. Read some good reviews about the update at the start of the year.

average_runner

Has anyone ever use orthodics in flats? Currently moved to Brooks Ghost with my orthodics and find them great.

average_runner

average_runner wrote: »

Has anyone ever use orthodics in flats? Currently moved to Brooks Ghost with my orthodics and find them great.

Bought a pair of brooks racer st 5 at the weekend. Looking forward to running in them.

HelenAnne

Hello

Thanks again to everyone for their recommendations. I placed in a race at my club for the first time ever last night (only because some faster women didn't turn up, but anyway!), so maybe it is time for flats ...

Anyway, saw this and thought people might be interested:

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/kit/summer-racing-shoes-reviews/8482.html

BobMac104

I would go with the saucony grid typeA5 out of those id say. looks to be a great shoe.

BTH

BobMac104 wrote: »

I would go with the saucony grid typeA5 out of those id say. looks to be a great shoe.

Been racing in them this year. Love em.

Marthastew

HelenAnne wrote: »

Hello

Thanks again to everyone for their recommendations. I placed in a race at my club for the first time ever last night (only because some faster women didn't turn up, but anyway!), so maybe it is time for flats ...

Anyway, saw this and thought people might be interested:

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/kit/summer-racing-shoes-reviews/8482.html

Congrats Helenanne, I'm delighted for you, your hard work is paying off.

Thanks also for starting this thread... It prompted me to head to Amphibian King to get a recommendation as I'd been wearing the same type of asics since I've started running. I got mizuno wave inspire, not racing flats but a lot lighter than what I'd been wearing. I'll let you know how they work out

HelenAnne

Marthastew wrote: »

Congrats Helenanne, I'm delighted for you, your hard work is paying off.

.... I got mizuno wave inspire, not racing flats but a lot lighter than what I'd been wearing. I'll let you know how they work out

Thank you! And hope the Mizunos work out well!

sconhome

antomagoo wrote: »

Just asking as I'm a bit green to the techy side of shoes, but what makes the Kinvara a training shoe & the ST5 a racer if the Kinvara is lighter & has smaller heel to toe drop (I think)

You are right on the smaller profile of the Kinvara.

The Kinvara is considered more of a light weight minimalist shoe better suited to training than racing. Where the Brooks ST5 is more suited to racing than training.

Why? It depends on what you want or like in a racing shoe. Most racing shoes are typically light and low profile by nature (same as minimalist or natural shoes). The extra feature of a racing shoe is that they usually have a firmer sole and forefoot which provides more response when toeing off.

Rather than a cushioned sole which absorbs energy the firmer sole of racers allows a good transfer of energy from the foot to the ground resulting in a more positive push off and faster movement. There is, lies the main difference.

carlton36

amphkingwest wrote: »

You are right on the smaller profile of the Kinvara.

The Kinvara is considered more of a light weight minimalist shoe better suited to training than racing. Where the Brooks ST5 is more suited to racing than training.

Hi Amphkingwest: is the Brooks ST5 (which I find great for racing) a suitable shoe for the marathon? The longest race I've run in them is a half-marathon and I found my calf's very tight for a couple of days afterwards. Not sure if this was down to the race, the shoe or both but would appreciate your thoughts. BTW, my time was under 90 minutes and I weigh approx 11 stone. Thanks

asimonov

carlton36 wrote: »

Hi Amphkingwest: is the Brooks ST5 (which I find great for racing) a suitable shoe for the marathon? The longest race I've run in them is a half-marathon and I found my calf's very tight for a couple of days afterwards. Not sure if this was down to the race, the shoe or both but would appreciate your thoughts. BTW, my time was under 90 minutes and I weigh approx 11 stone. Thanks

I know your question was asked to amphkingwest, but if it is any use to you, i am a similar sub90 half / 11 stone runner and have used the st5 (old and new models) for two full marathons and found them great. My legs weren't particularly beaten up after either of them (well - no more than you'd expect) - but we are all different.

HelenAnne

tunguska wrote: »

I think Brooks ST5 would be a perfect shoe to tip your toe into. They're light enough to be consdered a racing shoe but they have a fair bit of support in them. Honestly I cant imagine you having any problems whatsoever with them. And maybe after a while, when you're a little more confident you could graduate to a lighter shoe.

Got the Brooks ST5 yesterday. Ran 4 miles in them when I got them home and loved them. No aches & pains today, so I think I'll wear them in my next short race.
Tried on the Kinvaras and also loved them, but I felt the heel tab was rubbing even just on a run around the car park, so I went with the Brooks. Thanks everyone for the advice.

wrstan

Hi HA
I got a pair of ST5's about 6 weeks ago and I love them too. Initially I just used them for intervals and tempo runs, but I raced the Kilomarathon and Longford Half in them recently without any issues. I haven't started to wear them on my LSR's but I wouldn't have any concerns about doing so.
For me it also came down to a choice between the ST5's and the Kinvaras, our friends in AK let me take both pairs down the road for a a quick test drive, but the ST5's just felt right and I haven't looked back.
Well wear!

HelenAnne

Thank you, Brooks ST Racers - I placed in a race tonight in they first outing (tiny club race, and the two women usually ahead of me weren't running tonight, but still, vote of confidence for the shoes!)

Bungy Girl

Racing flats are awesome ! Took a big chunk off 1 mile and 2 mile PBs recently wearing a pair of Saucony Fastwich . No adverse effects in the calves after, if anything the body felt better after racing in these than it normally would in my heavier Saucony Hurricanes.

My question is, I've a 10K coming up and am considering racing in the flats. Am I tempting fate (5K is the most I've done in them before) ?

RayCun

If you felt fine after 5k you should be okay for 10k, though you'll probably feel it more next day

BrokenMan

I've raced 10 miles and half marathon in the Saucony Fastwich and no problems afterwards.

RacoonQueen

I've done 50k in them, woundknee has done 100k in them. Fastwitch are fine for long distances.

antomagoo

Picked up a pair of Saucony Grid Lightspeed off the Amphibian King lads for next to nothing last Saturday (Cheers Kevin ). Have only been wearing them around the house, but hoping to give them a try at the Rathfarnham 5K