Is it legal if an atheist mother forbade her son to attend mass?

one4on

Lets say THEORETICALLY an atheist mother forbade her son, lets say 13 or 14, from attending mass in the same town, based purely on the fact that she does not want him affiliated with any religion.

MOD NOTE: Mods, I am not seeking legal advice, it is just something which crossed my mind, and am genuinely curious as to what would happen here.
Regards.

seamus

Yes.

As the child's guardian, the parent is entitled to dictate where the child goes and what he does or does not do.

Freedom of religion really only kicks in when the child is their own legal authority, before that the parent decides.

It's the same basis on which parents have been baptising their babies for generations.

Farcear

Parents are the Guardians of their children. Guardians are responsible for the Welfare of children. Welfare includes Religious welfare.

I see no reason why not -- unless the other parent / Guardian objects.

Dan133269

Very interesting question, OP.

Parents are given a constitutional right to look after the education and religious instruction of their children.

The Irish courts have clearly prioritised the Constitutional right of freedom of religion over the Constitutional right of freedom from religion in the case law. In light of this, and deferring to the fact that the catholic church usually conduct confirmations at the age of 12 or thereabouts, I would say that the argument could be made that at that age, children are in a position to make their own religious choices (according to catholic church) and any choice of a child would trump that of a parent.

That is theoretical, it may be a bit different in practice of course. Although the prospect of some religious lobby group taking a parent to court to make sure their child can go to church doesn't sound far-fetched to me.

Blackhorse Slim

Dan133269 wrote: »

deferring to the fact that the catholic church usually conduct confirmations at the age of 12 or thereabouts, I would say that the argument could be made that at that age, children are in a position to make their own religious choices (according to catholic church) and any choice of a child would trump that of a parent.

Cool, so a 12-year old who is forced to go to mass could take his parents to court?

Sin City

There are 13 or 14 year olds who want to go to mass?

Thats shocking, Back in my day I would do anything to avoid going to mass at that age

Whats the world comming too

Seriously though at taht age if teh child wants to attend mass the parent should respect their wishes. At least both sides should be able to discuss this sensibly and go from there.

opinion guy

one4on wrote: »

Lets say THEORETICALLY an atheist mother forbade her son, lets say 13 or 14, from attending mass in the same town, based purely on the fact that she does not want him affiliated with any religion.

MOD NOTE: Mods, I am not seeking legal advice, it is just something which crossed my mind, and am genuinely curious as to what would happen here.
Regards.

OP I think you should give the legal types here the full context if you want answers appropriate to your situation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056683406

So the OP is actually asking is it legal for an atheist mother to prevent a child from going to mass when the Christian father wants the child to go to mass.

one4on

opinion guy wrote: »

OP I think you should give the legal types here the full context if you want answers appropriate to your situation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056683406

So the OP is actually asking is it legal for an atheist mother to prevent a child from going to mass when the Christian father wants the child to go to mass.

no, nothing to do with Christian father. I am not referring to my atheist fiancé either. I am just asking if both parents were atheist, would the child have a legal leg to stand on if they both refused to let him go to mass.

Dan133269

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

Cool, so a 12-year old who is forced to go to mass could take his parents to court?

Maybe, I doubt the court would entertain it though. However, a kid who wants to go to church and whose parents are stopping him, then I think a court would take such a case seriously, provided he's over a certain age (maybe 12) and has an actual person/group representing him/her with legal arguments.

one4on

Dan133269 wrote: »

Maybe, I doubt the court would entertain it though. However, a kid who wants to go to church and whose parents are stopping him, then I think a court would take such a case seriously, provided he's over a certain age (maybe 12) and has an actual person/group representing him/her with legal arguments.

Then arrested for denying religious freedom

Farcear

Dan133269 wrote: »

Maybe, I doubt the court would entertain it though. However, a kid who wants to go to church and whose parents are stopping him, then I think a court would take such a case seriously, provided he's over a certain age (maybe 12) and has an actual person/group representing him/her with legal arguments.

Who would make the application for the child?

Parental / family autonomy is very strong under Irish law.

Kids do what their guardians decide.

Maybe in an *extreme* case of say, satanic, immoral, sacrificial animals religion then the HSE _might_ have the ability to intervene but unlikely.

one4on

Farcear wrote: »

Who would make the application for the child?

Parish priest / other parishioners I'm sure.

Farcear

They do not have a right to make an application to court in matters concerning the welfare of the child, only the parents/guardians do.

one4on

Farcear wrote: »

They do not have a right to make an application to court in matters concerning the welfare of the child, only the parents/guardians do.

one4on wrote: »

Parish priest / other parishioners I'm sure.

yes, but the parents are denying the child's welfare. freedom of religion is guaranteed under UN, EU and Irish law for ALL

Farcear

Parents are Central

Article 41 of the Constitution provides that the family is the fundamental unit of society. Parents have almost absolute autonomy to decide how their children are raised. This has been re-stated in many, many Supreme Court cases -- e.g. http://www.supremecourt.ie/supremecourt/sclibrary3.nsf/%28WebFiles%29/519E6B732519B872802575F3002D35BE/$FILE/School%20Attendance_%5B1943%5D%20IR%20334.htm


Child has little / no autonomy

The only, very limited right of the child, is under Article 44.2.4° provides that a child has a right not to receive religious instruction at a school if it receives public funds. There has only been one case on this Article to date and this has been in the context of this as a further right of the PARENT, not exercised by the child.


State can Intervene sometimes...

There is limited scope in the Constitution for the State to intervene in cases where the parents are failing in their duty (Article 42.5). This is on objective test and really requires the child to be in serious danger -- e.g. needing to give the child a blood transfusion and the parents refusing http://www.hayes-solicitors.ie/news%5CChildrenOfJehovahsWitneses.html


Conclusion

Children have no autonomy; parents decide everything.

State could possibly intervene; not a chance a random third party / parish priest could possibly intervene.

Manach

There would be a measure of religious freedom, but paternal authority has been be explicitly written into the constitution, Art41?, and this would have a more persausive authority than UN/ECHR treaties?

ahnowbrowncow

one4on wrote: »

yes, but the parents are denying the child's welfare. freedom of religion is guaranteed under UN, EU and Irish law for ALL

Sounds like you and your atheist fiance are going down a rocky road, best of luck. You seem very naive if you think your kids will actually want to go to mass and take their mum to court if they don't go

Dan133269

Farcear wrote: »

They do not have a right to make an application to court in matters concerning the welfare of the child, only the parents/guardians do.

one4on wrote: »

yes, but the parents are denying the child's welfare. freedom of religion is guaranteed under UN, EU and Irish law for ALL

I don't think it's a welfare issue really, more of a freedom of religion question.

It wouldn't be the State intervening if a case was taken by some private person/group. In that case, it would be the State (through the judiciary) giving effect to the principle of freedom of religion.

Constitutional rights, as far as I understand, are not simply applicable to those over the age of 18, and automatically inapplicable to those under that age. The courts have recognised that children develop autonomy and independence gradually through their adolescence. That's why I mentioned the age of 12 as it is generally the age at which catholics are confirmed, and a court may take this into account. Medical operations are another example, a "child" of 16 can decide for him/herself whether they want or do not want a medical operation, regardless of the wishes of his/her parents, because the law deems them to have enough autonomy to be able to decide that issue for themselves.

This is all just theory anyway, it would take an actual case to give any real outcome. It would be interesting though!

Dan133269

Farcear wrote: »

Who would make the application for the child?

Some do-good christian lobby group, perhaps like the one that took extensive legal action against the HSE when they tried to intervene in the Roscommon incest and neglect case.

johnnyskeleton

If I were such a kid I would tell my folks that I'm off to go do drinking cans in the street then quietly dip into mass. I'd smoke a few cigarettes to disguise the smell of incense.

valleyoftheunos

Dan133269 wrote: »

I don't think it's a welfare issue really, more of a freedom of religion question.

It wouldn't be the State intervening if a case was taken by some private person/group. In that case, it would be the State (through the judiciary) giving effect to the principle of freedom of religion.

Constitutional rights, as far as I understand, are not simply applicable to those over the age of 18, and automatically inapplicable to those under that age. The courts have recognised that children develop autonomy and independence gradually through their adolescence. That's why I mentioned the age of 12 as it is generally the age at which catholics are confirmed, and a court may take this into account. Medical operations are another example, a "child" of 16 can decide for him/herself whether they want or do not want a medical operation, regardless of the wishes of his/her parents, because the law deems them to have enough autonomy to be able to decide that issue for themselves.

This is all just theory anyway, it would take an actual case to give any real outcome. It would be interesting though!

No court will intervene in such a situation, the Parents have clear constitutional rights of autonomy over their children's upbringing and the courts have repeatedly said they will only intervene in cases where there has been a total abdication of such parental responsibility which simply isn't present in the hypothetical situation outlined here. Furthermore the courts would only intervene in the Family if there was an issue of the child's welfare being at risk so seeking to run the line of a question of religious freedom would like not be successful

Furthermore no third party be it either a concerned parishioner, grandparent or Parish Priest would have the necessary Locus Standi to bring such a case and as a result the Court would refuse to hear it meaning that any such arguments are a moot point.

looksee

Would there not be some parallel with a situation where a parent was RC and the other was (say) C of I. There would not be any legal argument if one parent decided to insist the child went to their church rather than the partner's, would there? It would be between them to decide.

As an aside, I signed away my rights to raise my children as anything but Catholics when I got married, if I had changed my mind would that document (of the RC church) have had anything other than moral authority?

Jame Gumb

Can't see how the law comes into it if the child's a minor?

Could fall foul of freedom of religion provisions in somewhere like the US though?