Fighting for a British army victory

jonniebgood1

Many Irish nationalists went to fight in WWI as the nationalist leadership had given their blessing to this course of action

Perhaps the most difficult process was that faced by those nationalist volunteers in the British army who had set off, fired by John Redmond's claim that 'Ireland's highest interests' lay 'in the speedy and overwhelming victory of England and the Allies'. Having helped raise what he described as 'a distinctively Irish army, composed of Irishmen, led by Irishmen and trained at home in Ireland', Redmond asserted in the middle of the war that 'the achievements of that Irish army have covered Ireland with glory before the world'. But by the time the survivors of the war returned home, words like these had turned into empty rhetoric. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/ireland_wwone_01.shtml#three

These men would have been in a difficult situation after the 1916 rising. Were they badly advised by Redmond given that he expected a short war with home rule to follow its end?

Manach

A short war with a political payback at the end of it was also a consideration in the Central powers. For instance, Hungarian nationalists drove similar bargains with the Imperial Austrian government for their support in the war. Given prior examples of European Wars since 1815 - these were short-term limited affairs in the most part. Hence Redmond was neither alone or ill-judged in his calculation, just wrong.

Delancey

What did Redmond make of the large scale enlistment of UVF members in the Army - they expected their reward was to be the abandonment of Home Rule ?
The stage was set for serious conflict either way.

jonniebgood1

Delancey wrote: »

What did Redmond make of the large scale enlistment of UVF members in the Army - they expected their reward was to be the abandonment of Home Rule ?
The stage was set for serious conflict either way.

That is also true. Partition of Ulster or part of the province was being contemplated at the outset of WWI- whether home rule was still possible for the whole island in 1914 is debatable and probably unlikely. Redmond had had quite a break with the new laws that allowed bypassing the house of lords after they had blocked a liberal budget.

jonniebgood1

Manach wrote: »

Hence Redmond was neither alone or ill-judged in his calculation, just wrong.

With hindsight is it fair to say that the Irish nationalists who fought for the British cause in WWI were also wrong to go to war to protect Belguim when in fact Belguim was simply an extension of what Ireland had been for many hundreds of years?

tac foley

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

With hindsight is it fair to say that the Irish nationalists who fought for the British cause in WWI were also wrong to go to war to protect Belguim when in fact Belguim was simply an extension of what Ireland had been for many hundreds of years?

Sir - would you care to run that flag up the pole one more time for me?

In what way was British-controlled Ireland an analogue of Belgium, which was then, and still is, a wholly independent monarchist state whose independence had been guaranteed by the Treaty of 1839, and deliberately set up as a 'buffer' between France, The Netherlands, and the states that eventually became Germany?

I'm not being deliberately obtuse - I just don't see your rationale.

tac

Fratton Fred

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - would you care to run that flag up the pole one more time for me?

In what way was British-controlled Ireland an analogue of Belgium, which was then, and still is, a wholly independent monarchist state whose independence had been guaranteed by the Treaty of 1839, and deliberately set up as a 'buffer' between France, The Netherlands, and the states that eventually became Germany?

I'm not being deliberately obtuse - I just don't see your rationale.

tac

And were, as a chap called Roger Casement discovered, a rather brutal empire in their own right.

tac foley

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And were, as a chap called Roger Casement discovered, a rather brutal empire in their own right.

So how was Belgium like pre-WW1 Ireland?

tac

Jawgap

I think they were in a fairly difficult situation once the bullets started flying.

In defence of Redmond he wasn't the only one who expected the war to be finished by Christmas.

Also, I think a lot joined up out of economic necessity - certainly in Dublin the legacy of the 1913 Lockout left a lot of men with no way to earn an income.

Finally, I don't think soldiers who served had a bad time of it immediately after 1916, I think that was something that evolved over the following 5 to 10 years

Fratton Fred

tac foley wrote: »

So how was Belgium like pre-WW1 Ireland?

tac

Small and Catholic? I don't see how they were.

tac foley

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Small and Catholic? I don't see how they were.

Johnniebegood wrote this - 'Belguim [sic] was simply an extension of what Ireland had been for many hundreds of years?'

And I asked him to explain what he meant I guess my English isn't up to interpreting between the lines here and that I'm missing a very important point, but for the life of me I don't understand his statement.

tac

jonniebgood1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Belguim was simply an extension of what Ireland had been for many hundreds of years?

No problem Tac- I obviously did not explain what I meant clear enough. You will disagree but if you look back at my point which you are questioning you will note that it was a question, the aim of which was to promote debate on teh topic rather than to be definitive. In any case you select the part that I have quoted above to be clarified which I do as follows.

My point is that there is an irony in Irishmen going to war to fight for belgiums freedom when Ireland itself was not free at this time (as in the majority of people on the Island would have wanted freedom). Belgium was held as a victim in recruitment drives for enlisting in WWI, that much I presume we can agree:

So my comment is basically that the situation that had Belgium occupied by foreign forces in 1914 was the same as the Ireland of the day had suffered for hundreds of years (i.e. an extension of Irelands situation). I reckon you might not agree but hopefully that clarifies my point.

tac foley

jbg1 - thank you for the clarification. I now clearly understand what your premise was.

However, you do me a disservice in your remote judgement of my opinion on this point by assuming that I'm bound to have an anti-Irish POV or bias - something that I have never ever even hinted at on this, or any other forum. In any case, my opinion here counts for nothing, since I'm only a 'plastic paddy' - I was simply trying to understand what you were getting at.

How can I not agree with the facts of history that you indicate in your explanation? We either have to live them or ignore them - nothing we do by discussion or by wishing can change a single full-stop into a comma on the pages of history.

tac, out of the discussion

jonniebgood1

tac foley wrote: »

jbg1 - thank you for the clarification. I now clearly understand what your premise was.

However, you do me a disservice in your remote judgement of my opinion on this point by assuming that I'm bound to have an anti-Irish POV or bias - something that I have never ever even hinted at on this, or any other forum. In any case, my opinion here counts for nothing, since I'm only a 'plastic paddy' - I was simply trying to understand what you were getting at.

How can I not agree with the facts of history that you indicate in your explanation? We either have to live them or ignore them - nothing we do by discussion or by wishing can change a single full-stop into a comma on the pages of history.

tac, out of the discussion

No need to step out of the discussion. I should not pre-empt your or anyone elses opinion on the forum so if I am inaccurate I apologise.

The premise of Irishmen fighting for the freedom of a small nation like Belgium in WWI is something that is very interesting. There are of course other reasons for this participation most likely social and reflecting the opportunities these men had availiable (my family history reflects this). In the Irish situation this is exacerbated by events that followed.