P Grad Construction Law TCD

david4791

Hi,
Any experiences of this course?, offered a place for SEP 2012?

ColinMc

Hi David,

May I ask what background you are coming from and what you hope to get out of the TCD course? I looked into the course myself and I think at the time the fees were €5,000 + and lectures were held on Friday evenings and Saturday mornings which didn't suit. I instead went for the M/Sc/LLM in Construction Law and Arbitration from The Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen. It's a three year (part time) course with an award given at the end of each year. As you progress the next years award overrides the last. Year 1 is a cert, Year 2 a diploma and Year 3 an LLM/MSc depending on how you structure your dissertation.
The course costs approx £10k, the advantage is has over TCD is the flexibility from being part time and the masters award over the diploma. If you were to opt out at the diploma stage the costs would be £7k. I've been awarded the LLM this summer. In terms of job prospects afterwards, I came from a QS background. I've had job offers from oil and gas firms in Brazil, Cameroon and The Shetland Islands however travelling to those destinations doesn't really suit my current predicament. If you're willing to travel the additional qualification will certainly open doors for you.

david4791

Hi Colinmc,
I'm a civil engineer based on sites full time. I was hoping the course would offer a good insight into contract admin/tendering/law, this is an area where I really should be more proficient in.

In terms of what I wish to take from this course, well I feel I should add a postgrad in some area relevant to my experience to date. I firmly believe in upskilling on a regular basis, this would add another string to my bow so to speak.

However, like yourself, the only negative with the TCD course is the Fri eve/Sat am committments, I usually wouldn't arrive home Monday to Friday until 7pm, and with 2 kids under 4 its a busy house to say the least. The wife wouldn't appreciate 1/2 of the weekend written off weekly studying.

I did look at that course you have completed at Gordon, was there many hours committed per week with tutorials and personal study?

ColinMc

Hi David,

You're right about the up-skilling. The only thing I would say about the RGU course is it is based on English law and English building contracts. This can be an advantage as the English contracts are more detailed and if you can understand the JCT / NEC suite of contracts then I'm sure you'll have no problem getting your head around the Irish contracts. As well as that the Irish law tends to be a carbon copy of the English system.

In terms of your predicament then I think the RGU course would suit you best. The academic year runs from September to May with an assignment in October, 2 in January and 2 in May. I used to spend 2 hours on a Saturday morning and 2 hours on a Sunday evening reading the lecture notes and studying. There were also online tutorials run every week and I used to try my best to be online for those. All in all you'd need to be putting aside 5-6 hours a week of productive study.

From memory the modules in first year were as follows:

1) Legal Systems and Contract Law
2) Reparation Law and Evidence (Tort)
3) Arbitration Law
4) Arbitration Practice and Procedure

Each of those is divided up into 12 different topics. You are given 8 weeks to study each topic and then an assignment is posted up on the campus moodle for you to complete and submit for marking. At the end of year 1 you obtain a post graduate cert in construction law and arbitration. This gives you the minimum entry requirements to do your arbitration exams.

I think RGU are offering a Construction Law and Adjudication course as well. If this Construction Contracts Bill 2010 ever gets passed it may be useful to have the Adjudication qualification over the Arbitration.

david4791

Thanks for your useful information on the course.

Based on conversations with ICE & IEI, adjudication seems to be the way forward. One of my colleagues who studied the course at TCD stated the only flaw with the adjudication lies with the whole AMBUSH trick which can be used by the Contractor, when this occurs the case could very well lead to arbitration.

How is the Gordon Uni ranked in the UK for law?

ColinMc

Hi David,

This could very well be the case if the Irish Bill as it is currently drafted remains unchanged. It does not impose any time limit at all on the referring party who may give notice to refer disputes at any time.

It remains to be seen whether adjudication is the way forward in Ireland. One of the key features of an adjudication regime is the speedy resolution of disputes and the vast majority connected to the construction industry in the UK and Australia would have little hesitation in stating that adjudication is the industry's method of dispute resolution. The Irish bill fails in this regard through its proposals for a non binding form of adjudication. I wouldn't get my hopes up that its going to be the way forward in Ireland or there is going to be huge money to be made from it.

With regard the ranking for RGU I think in a recent poll it was voted best modern university in Scotland and second best in the UK.

david4791

Finally Colinmc,
If you were doing the course again from scratch would you still opt for Arbit route over the adjud route?

ColinMc

Arbitration is a hard industry to break into. It's sort of an old boys club at the minute with a lot of old legal heads dictating the play. That seems to be slowly changing though but you need to put in a lot of work to get your name on the panel and get recognized. I've absolutely no confidence in the adjudication bill proposed in Ireland at the minute. Saying that though there is a higher incidence of adjudication in the UK than arbitration so if you were looking to break into the market there then I'd chose adjudication.

In my view you could be the Albert Einstein of construction but without an indigenous industry to support your talents you're going to struggle no matter what field of construction you're in. There's just no activity at the minute in Ireland. Hopefully it will improve, we're four years into this recession and nothing has changed so who knows what will happen.

david4791

Did you get into this space to get involved directly in dispute resolution as an Arbitrator, or to get an in depth understanding of law for your role as a QS?

Nopeare

Hi David

I was wondering did you decide to do the TCD course in the end, I am looking at applying for it for it for next September and wondering what it is like?

I am looking into the course in RGU as well, but I am not sure if I want to commit 3 years as I have just finished my degree (QS) and might look at going travelling/working abroad. So if you did go ahead with the course some information would be appreciated.

SWL

Nopeare wrote: »

Hi David

I was wondering did you decide to do the TCD course in the end, I am looking at applying for it for it for next September and wondering what it is like?

I am looking into the course in RGU as well, but I am not sure if I want to commit 3 years as I have just finished my degree (QS) and might look at going travelling/working abroad. So if you did go ahead with the course some information would be appreciated.

Save your money not a very good course IMHO, you are paying for the campus, most of what is covered is studied at any half decent QS, Eng etc course. what course are your looking into in RGU?

Nopeare

SWL wrote: »

Save your money not a very good course IMHO, you are paying for the campus, most of what is covered is studied at any half decent QS, Eng etc course. what course are your looking into in RGU?

I was looking at the construction law course talked about at the top but I don't think I will do it (I was interested because they offered a course with adjudication which I was going to do as I did my dissertation on the Construction Contracts Bill) but after looking into I am leaning towards the Arbitration course in UCD. Do you have any experience of that course?

Thanks for the advice on the TCD course

SWL

Nopeare wrote: »

I was looking at the construction law course talked about at the top but I don't think I will do it (I was interested because they offered a course with adjudication which I was going to do as I did my dissertation on the Construction Contracts Bill) but after looking into I am leaning towards the Arbitration course in UCD. Do you have any experience of that course?

Thanks for the advice on the TCD course

I looked into the UCD course never got round to doing it, but it appears to be well regarded, I also think it better and easier to study this topic in Ireland,although going the UK route is also a good back up plan, as the contracts are numerous and more complex than in Ireland, work is limited in Ireland as the industry tends to be less adversarial than the UK.

Best of luck in what ever you do.

david4791

Hi NOPEARE,
Sorry for late reply, no I didnt take the course due to work location and finance reasons, I believe its a good course but very pricey.

Nopeare

SWL wrote: »

I looked into the UCD course never got round to doing it, but it appears to be well regarded, I also think it better and easier to study this topic in Ireland,although going the UK route is also a good back up plan, as the contracts are numerous and more complex than in Ireland, work is limited in Ireland as the industry tends to be less adversarial than the UK.

Best of luck in what ever you do.

Just wanted to pop back and say thanks for your advice on this, applied for the UCD course and have since being accepted to do it. So hopefully will be starting in September

rafwee80

Hi guys,
I want to do a construction law course and came across this thread. I would appreciate any advice.

I have enquired about the TCD course but my level 7 degree and 10yrs + project mgt experience is not enough to be accepted onto the course. Glad to hear it wasn't very good.

Some discussion above about which route to go - Adjudication or Arbitration. What are your thought now that we are out of the recession ?

I really only want to commit to a 1yr course and get the best possible value from it.

All advice appreciated.