Switching from pad to stick for SF4. How long to see results?

I've recently made a decision to switch permanently to stick over pad for SSFIV because of the ass whooping i got handed at my first XGC casuals a while back by all of you stick players. It was clear to me that a pad just wasn't going to give me the response/execution time i need to deal with high level play.

I've got Myself a Qanba Q4, which is lovely, and I'm determined to learn it, and to up my game. The stick is great, and straight away feels very instinctive, but the buttons are taking some getting used to.

What can i do to make re-training myself easier, and how long can i expect to wait before using a stick is as instinctive as using a pad has become? I know repetition is key, and there are certain B&B combos and punishes i'm just repeating ad-nauseum at the moment, but do you guys have any general tips on stuff like default hand placement, etc that could save me some time?

Specific questions:

• Bat top versus ball top on the stick, and why? (I'm looking for anything concrete here, rather than just general personal preference). I have always preferred bats, but i have both options for my Q4, and am looking to go with the best option for my game from day 1.

• Stick grip. I've read up and watched vids, and daigo's take on how to grip the stick (shaft between pinky and ring finger, holding the top between index finger and base of thumb) seems to give the fastest response. Is there a better way or does it matter?

• Is it best to assign a finger to each strength of attack button and move the right hand/palm as little as possible, or to move the right hand around and use whatever finger(s) you're more comfortable with to strike the buttons ? Why?

• Is it better to avoid using the 3K/3P macro buttons and just use the standard buttons for ultras etc? Why?

Any other help or pointers you guys could offer to help me get up to speed would be very welcome.

Thanks!!

Scavenger XIII

It's been said plenty of times before, stick won't make you better.

Certain techniques involving odd combinations of buttons can be easier to perform but outside of that it's all preference. Sure a good couple of the countrys top players use pad.

UberPrinny_Baal

How long is a piece of string?

Sorry but it's a massive "Your milage may vary" question. It took me weeks or maybe even months before I felt like I was better on stick than I had been on pad originally, but then you have players who feel they've made the transition within a single set of casuals.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've recently made a decision to switch permanently to stick over pad for SSFIV because of the ass whooping i got handed at my first XGC casuals a while back by all of you stick players.

You didn't get a whooping because you use a pad, you got a whooping because you're new; and some of the guys in the scene have a three year headstart on you. There isn't any quick fix to that.

I'm afraid only time and practice are going to be able earn you wins. What input device you're using doesn't actually matter.

If you still want to transition to stick, the annoying (but true) answer to all your questions is "Whatever you find most comfortable".

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've recently made a decision to switch permanently to stick over pad for SSFIV because of the ass whooping i got handed at my first XGC casuals a while back by all of you stick players. It was clear to me that a pad just wasn't going to give me the response/execution time i need to deal with high level play.

I've got Myself a Qanba Q4, which is lovely, and I'm determined to learn it, and to up my game. The stick is great, and straight away feels very instinctive, but the buttons are taking some getting used to.

What can i do to make re-training myself easier, and how long can i expect to wait before using a stick is as instinctive as using a pad has become? I know repetition is key, and there are certain B&B combos and punishes i'm just repeating ad-nauseum at the moment, but do you guys have any general tips on stuff like default hand placement, etc that could save me some time?

Specific questions:

• Bat top versus ball top on the stick, and why? (I'm looking for anything concrete here, rather than just general personal preference). I have always preferred bats, but i have both options for my Q4, and am looking to go with the best option for my game from day 1.

• Stick grip. I've read up and watched vids, and daigo's take on how to grip the stick (shaft between pinky and ring finger, holding the top between index finger and base of thumb) seems to give the fastest response. Is there a better way or does it matter?

• Is it best to assign a finger to each strength of attack button and move the right hand/palm as little as possible, or to move the right hand around and use whatever finger(s) you're more comfortable with to strike the buttons ? Why?

• Is it better to avoid using the 3K/3P macro buttons and just use the standard buttons for ultras etc? Why?

Any other help or pointers you guys could offer to help me get up to speed would be very welcome.

Thanks!!

There's no really easy way to go from one to the other, although I found going back to stick to be quite easy tbh. I'd play arcade mode a few times and hit the training room for combo practice.

I prefer ball as its a solid shape and like touch typing my hand is guided to it's best position on the stick. It's like a reference point. I don't get that with bap top at all. It also means I can use the vast majority of sticks if I don't have mine to hand (which does happen, with all the best intent in the world).

Virtually every tutorial I've seen about stick use has said use whatever's comfortable to you. I was suprised in Cork to hear my style described as a claw, I didn't even know that

My thumb and first finger pretty much live over the lp and lk buttons for reaction teching. The rest of my fingers then find it completely natural floating over other buttons (even plinking feels natural after a while). Again the two leftmost buttons are "reference points" which I use to guide all my fingers. I cannot use sticks where the left most buttons have been plugged (CHOPPER).

In general, it's considered best not to use the 3 button macros. I personally simply don't use them because sometimes you will be handed a 6 button stick: Most of my stick choices come down to practicality
I do think however there is a bit of... snobbery about it, AFAIK tournaments don't ban them, so if you really want to...

I guess another reason is that you've only got 5 fingers, spreading your reach across another 2 can't be a good thing.

Leprekaun

To be honest, you can be as good or better with a pad as anyone with a stick, that is my own personal opinion. I think one of the primary reasons why most people use sticks is because they grew up in the arcades so its what they spent most of their time playing are with joysticks and buttons. Proof that you can be as good with a pad are Cobelcog and Hound (I believe but don't quote me on that). They're both pad users and are two of the best SF players in the Irish scene.

An arcade stick won't make you a better player, its all a mental game and muscle memory training. The mental game thing is something you'll have to train up yourself to develop your own strategies. The muscle memory just comes from practicing all the time the same move constantly to get it out right. Eventually, you won't have to think about the inputs and you can just pull them off on command. An arcade stick can just make inputs for different moves simpler because you have a larger area to perform quarter-circles, half-circles or whatever. With a pad, if you were like me and using the dpad, it can take some very finite precision to get the moves you want (my own personal example: Balrog's dash upper, everytime I used a pad, I would keep getting the dash smash which is instead of hold back, forward + K, is hold back, down-forward + K) so the inputs there are very close, making it difficult to execute it properly with a pad but again, that is my own personal example, it may not be applicable to other players.

Anyway, to get to the specifics of using an arcade stick, it really is what you're most comfortable doing. Some players like to hold the stick with the palm of their hand, others like to hold it tight and others something in between. Just do what feels most natural to you and stick with it. If you go on trying to use the wine glass grip, because most Japanese players do, and persist with it and you're not getting anywhere then there is no real point to stick with it if its hindering your game. Since you're still new to using an arcade stick, just try different grips and see what you like best but it really doesn't matter if you even come up with your own new grip, even different grips for different character directions. For example, in Virtua Fighter, I main Akira and I find that when I'm facing right, I use one grip and when I'm facing left, I use a different grip or different techniques to executing moves.

Just keep practicing and carefully analyse your inputs. For example, if you keep trying to pull off the hadoken and its not coming out, think about how you're rotating the joystick, are you not rotating it enough (example: d, df but no f at the end) or are you rotating it too much (d, df, f, uf), although with SSFIV, the inputs are looser than with previous games so if you're a bit sloppy, its not a big deal since the game will most likely register the inputs as a hadoken. Also, it helps to go into training mode and turn on the input display. That way you can see what movements you're doing with the joystick and see where you might be going wrong.

In regards to the whole 3P/3K thing, the way I look at it, most arcade sticks have 8 buttons so why the hell not use them? They're there and working aren't they? People disrespect players who use them because they're not playing the game like you would in an arcade (which has 6 buttons) but lets face it, there are no SSFIV arcades in Ireland, maybe not even SFIV arcades, so everyone will be spending all their time playing on PC/PS3/X360 so there is nothing wrong or shameful for using the extra 2 buttons. If you want to use them for ultras, do, who cares what everyone else thinks?

I would recommend though for trying to do FADCs from an EX move to use 2 buttons to perform that EX move because lets say you want to FADC off an EX hadoken, you could press qcf+3P and that will give you an EX hadoken but you'll have to shift your fingers a couple of button columns left to get to the MP+MK to do the FADC so if you did the EX hadoken using MP+HP, you'd only have to press MK for the FADC with your thumb, provided you're using the same finger you used for MP for the EX move before.

Anyway, to sum up all I've said, nothing wrong with using a pad if you want to but also keep persisting with an arcade stick and see how you get on. You bought it now so you may as well give it a fair chance . I grew up on consoles, not arcades so my switch to an arcade stick took me a bit longer than perhaps most people who would've grown up on arcades but I'm proficient now with an arcade stick so I just use it when I'm playing any fighting games so you'll eventually get used to it. Experiment with different joystick grips to see what you're most comfortable with. None of them necessarily have an edge over others, its just preference. Nothing wrong with using buttons 4 and 8 for 3P/3K and its not advantageous to use 3 buttons to pull off an ultra over using 1 button.

Thats it. Sorry for the long post!

Ramza

Stick vs pad is preference but it's nice to experiment and see if you like stick better, some things like plinking are instinctively easier tho. Hound, Cobelcog, Stev0, myself (har), and tonnes of other players who do very well in tournaments (not me anyway as far as inferno goes!!) and who are noted good players (alioune for example), play pad. I was in your shoes not too long ago and here is my advice

Find a grip on the stick which suits you, I drilled with a certain grip and then found I didn't like it, so I had to switch. The one that I use now and love the most is stick held between the pinky and third fingers using t he rest for control. It just so happens daigo uses this grip too, and I found it to be the most comfortable for me

If you've preferred bats then buy a bat top but I'm p sure you need an adapter of some sort for sanwa sticks to use bat tops from HAPP. Try both em out

Right hand is preference. I find my right hand moving a lot and using whichever fingers are available, but mostly I have a set mental config for buttons and fingers. My plinking for example is very strict and I only use the same certain finger setups I have drilled in training and burned into muscle memory

Also another tidbit, stick with 4 way if you can, it is THE standard imo, 99% of sticks at tourneys etc and arcades use 4 way square gates and there really is no point in switching to an 8 way thinking it will change your execution, unless you prefer 8 way gate,. Otherwise I highly recommend you stick with 4

UberPrinny_Baal

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

You didn't get a whooping because you use a pad, you got a whooping because you're new

That's undoubtedly true, and the whooping really doesn't bother me, particularly as several of you were kind enough to give me feedback and help me learn from my mistakes, but regardless, several times i felt that i needed an edge in speed and reaction time that pad wasn't giving me, for stuff like reaction SRKing jump-ins and so on. I've only been playing around with stick for the last week or so seriously, and already i can see that my reaction time from seeing something happening to getting a move out to counter it is much faster, which helps immensely.

I've settled on ryu as my main. Deejay's lack of wakeup options just weren't cutting it, and he's looking like low to bottom tier in all the lists i've seen. While i had mostly always played charge characters on pad, i feel at a distinct disadvantage using a shoto on pad with the high level of input precision that SF4 needs for the advanced stuff. I guess it is personal preference, but i do feel that there's a lot more potential in learning stick for me for this game, i just need to get over the bump of learning it initially, until it feels instinctive.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I prefer ball as its a solid shape and like touch typing my hand is guided to it's best position on the stick. It's like a reference point. I don't get that with bap top at all.

Thanks. I was leaning towards putting the ball top back on and just going with it, i think I'll do that and see how i get on. It's the way that all the best players play, even the ones from the US, where bat top is the arcade standard, so there must be something to it.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

My thumb and first finger pretty much live over the lp and lk buttons for reaction teching....The rest of my fingers then find it completely natural floating over other buttons (even plinking feels natural after a while).....Again the two leftmost buttons are "reference points" which I use to guide all my fingers.

Thanks again, i was looking for something exactly like this. I feel like staying more or less stationary with the right hand and having a constant reference point is something that would probably be a good approach versus jumping around too much. I think I'll force myself to play like that for a while and see how i get on.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

In general, it's considered best not to use the 3 button macros

Yeah, i had often wondered, it seems unnatural to try to go for them in a pinch, especially when the individual buttons are instantly accessible with the other "reference point" method. 8 buttons seems so much more unwieldy than 6. I may even end up blanking them off, depending on how i get on. All of my prefious experience on sticks has been 6 buttons rather than 8.

Specific to the Qanba Q4, going for the 3P or 3K buttons in a hurry seems to cause problems for me with that stupidly placed start button. If i use the macros, my instinct is to hit them with my index finger or thumb, which means my pinky is way too close to start for my liking. For such a great stick with so many thoughtful features, they really messed up there, it's the one really dumb design flaw it has....

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

I've only been playing around with stick for the last week or so seriously, and already i can see that my reaction time from seeing something happening to getting a move out to counter it is much faster, which helps immensely.

That's different then. If you already feel more comfortable on stick, go with that.

Regarding the 3xP 3xK buttons, I think a lot of people in the scene use controller type A, which auto-assigns them to the far right buttons.

I don't use them personally. Not because of any kind of stigma, but simply because when you keep your hand hovering over your 6 standard buttons, moving all the way over to the right side of stick feels unnatural and a bizarrely long distance.
I tried to use them before but my hand would honestly get lost trying to find it's way back to the default position. I found it far easier to just manually press three punches or kicks, since they're right there.

If there was a default controller set-up to unassign them, I'd use that, but controller type A is the laziest and quickest way to button check.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've settled on ryu as my main. Deejay's lack of wakeup options just weren't cutting it, and he's looking like low to bottom tier in all the lists i've seen.

Haha, you can't say I didn't warn you. There's a Japanese tier list posted in another thread that has him as 2nd worst in the game. Worse than Dan :pac:

Leprekaun

Leprekaun wrote: »

I would recommend though for trying to do FADCs from an EX move to use 2 buttons to perform that EX move.....

Thanks for the advice. Yeah that's something that i had actually given a lot of thought to, and come to the same conclusion. Using macros for EX moves with characters like Akuma caused problems with overlapping moves, getting teleports instead of ex SRK etc. Also, I'm steering clear of macros for focusing and ex moves generally on stick.

On a pad i use a wierd custom config, and i used to FADC xx ultra with ryu in a kind of funny way, by setting my taunt to "none" and then doing an LP SRK, then pressing and holding both macros (which gives you a focus cancel when you've deactivated taunting), then dashing to cancel the focus, then doing 2X QCF, and then finally releasing the 2 macros to activate the ultra on button up. That still works on stick, but it just seems like i've got the full button layout at my fingertips, which wasn't the case as much with pad, so why not focus properly, and learn to use the buttons as they were intended?

Ramza wrote: »

The [grip] that I use now and love the most is stick held between the pinky and third fingers using the rest for control. It just so happens daigo uses this grip too, and I found it to be the most comfortable for me

Yup, that seems to have been working really well for me. Whenever i don't seem to be able to pull off something, and i change to that grip, it makes a big difference.

Ramza wrote: »

If you've preferred bats then buy a bat top but I'm p sure you need an adapter of some sort for sanwa sticks to use bat tops from HAPP. Try both em out

I have both, and I'm leaning towards putting the ball top back on. The bat top uses a sanwa thread adaptor, which also adds a little length to the shaft.

Ramza wrote: »

Also another tidbit, stick with 4 way if you can, it is THE standard imo, 99% of sticks at tourneys etc and arcades use 4 way square gates and there really is no point in switching to an 8 way thinking it will change your execution, unless you prefer 8 way gate....

No way. I just can't deal with the square gate, it feels totally unnatural to me. The corners are handy for chargers, but otherwise i think they're a real pain. I've always swopped square gates out for octo on any stick i've ever had, all my cabs, an old TE i have since sold, etc. I understand why people like them, but i guess it's personal preference. I ride the gate when i'm pulling off quarter circles etc, and the corners just mess me up every time.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Regarding the 3xP 3xK buttons...I don't use them personally. Not because of any kind of stigma, but simply because when you keep your hand hovering over your 6 standard buttons, moving all the way over to the right side of stick feels unnatural and a bizarrely long distance. I tried to use them before but my hand would honestly get lost trying to find it's way back to the default position.

Yeah, i think i've been coming to the same conclusion. It seems like it only gives rise to confusion in finding your way back to your usual reference point, and having to look down and see where your hand is at. That half a second glance leads to you missing something that results in eating a big combo. I'm gonna stick with six over six and train my brain to keep my hand stationary so it knows where everything is instantly.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Haha, you can't say I didn't warn you. There's a Japanese tier list posted in another thread that has him as 2nd worst in the game. Worse than Dan

Lol, yeah i saw it. It's the de-facto japanese tier list. Seeing deejay worse than Dan sealed the deal TBH. I've got enough problems and handicaps at the moment without picking up a bottom-tier character and adding to my woes.

I've always approached street fighter tiers the same way, i always pick a character who i like, and who suits my play style, but i will only ever pick from the top half of the roster, and preferably from the upper tiers if possible.

I love deejay as a character, and will still play him as an alt, but a main that's 2nd from the bottom?? No thanks!

Doctor DooM

I would strongly advise against octogate.

Here's me quoting me as to why (I say the same thing every time:)

I'd just buy the quanba and don't bother with the octogate, you're just handicapping yourself.

To quote me 7 months ago:

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'm gonna say it again.

This is what happens with octo gates:

Person's execution sucks and they decide to do something about it. they see this alternate stick type the octogate, and go for it.

It feels weird but they put hundreds of hours into getting good with it and lo and behold, their execution is suddenly good.

They then attribute the change to the octogate and not their own work...

For a result they could have got just by doing the practice anyway AND could use everyone elses stick.

Doctor DooM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I would strongly advise against octogate.....I'd just buy the quanba and don't bother with the octogate, you're just handicapping yourself...

I get what you're saying, but octogate doesn't feel wierd or handicapped at all to me, it feels much more natural, easier to pull off moves freely with, and much more in tune with the way i use the stick. All of my JLF's (I have several sticks in varous machines) are octo modded, and from the very first time i swopped out a square gate for an octo, it just felt right. I would have to learn a square gate, but an octo already feels natural to me.

I read an article on this years ago, which basically said there was two ways to use a stick for fighters, the jap style, (more suited to square gate, which is the norm there) which involves holding the stick and making the switch contacts without the stick's actuator making any contact with the edge of the gate itself, and the american style, which (because of the standard circle gates or lack of gates all together in most of their arcades) involved using the restrictor to guide your stick's movement, or "riding the gate".

Neither were deemed less valid, the japanese one was fractionally faster, but less precise, the american one was more precise but fractionally slower, but ultimately it was a matter of matching your play style to the hardware, whatever worked for you.

If you've been used to circle gates (or American arcade machines in general), as I've been, it's much more likely that your preference will be to ride the gate. Mine is, and i have always struggled with square gates for that reason, whereas i rarely have a problem with my stick execution on an octo. It actually feels better than a circle for me, like the best of both worlds. It's got the freedom of movement to ride the gate, but it's got just enough definition on it's corners so that you can still find directions easily like on the square restrictor.

I really do think there's little or no difference, at the same level, between a square and octo player, it's just personal preference.

Doctor DooM

I grew up on American arcade machines and the only concession to the "old" way I made was using semitsus for a while: You don't realise it but your basically making an excuse for your own bad execution, and in trying to resolve it (which octogates won't, as I pointed out above, you will put in hard work and become good on either) you ARE handicapping yourself in the sense that maybe 2 other people use an octogate whereas everyone else uses square. If you use octogate and your stick gives out mid tournament, what are you going to do? Forfeit? Or just get annoyed because you can't play to the best of your ability?

It's not that octogate is the wrong choice: There's just 2 right choices and chosing square is the easiest right choice long term. You've already stated you've got a ways to go, so it comes down to that.

Well, i'll certainly bear it in mind. As it is i have a bunch of mods to do on my Q4, i'll consider sticking back in a square gate and see what happens. I can always swop it back out anytime i want.

Making the artwork all pretty on it is number one priority though