Zig zagging in open water swim

Redzah

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to tri and have completed one olympic in 2011. I have recentely started open water training (by myself) for next months beast of the east. I am training in seapoint using the yellow buoys as the course and I continuously find myself going off track from the target in a zig zag route. I am now trying to look up more and breast stroke a couple of times to get myself back on route before getting back into the front crawl. I feel like this halts momentum and time and im just wondering what tips you could give to eliminate this to a newbie?

Thanks in advance

Micilin Muc

I've only started swimming at Seapoint too and have the same problem.

I usually line up the buoy with a point on Howth Head on the way out, with a point on the West Pier on the way over, and the railings with the Martello tower on the way back. I have improved but it takes practice I presume.

Redzah

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I've only started swimming at Seapoint too and have the same problem.

I usually line up the buoy with a point on Howth Head on the way out, with a point on the West Pier on the way over, and the railings with the Martello tower on the way back. I have improved but it takes practice I presume.

Yep the buoys are great to use as a course but i suppose i'm looking to see if there are any other tips apart from just practice (which of course is very valid) that can help with me with this?

As a matter of interest do u use a garmin watch that tells u the distance of the swim?
Without the watch i've managed to calculate the distance using my Golf Laser rangefinder and using basic trigonomitery which should be fairly accurate but i'd be interested to know if u know the distance.

I have the distance as follows;

Triangle around buoy 1 (far left) and 2 and back to shore is 590 metres ish

Triangle around buoy 1 (far left) and 2 and 3 and back to shore is 860 metres ish

I can't clock buoys 4 and 5 as the range is really 400 metres max on the laser

Micilin Muc

I don't know the distance but your estimates are in and around what I thought too. I might get a lend of a tri Garmin next week and will post the info here.

How often do you sight? I sight about every 6 strokes or every 9 strokes but am a complete OW beginner.

Redzah

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I don't know the distance but your estimates are in and around what I thought too. I might get a lend of a tri Garmin next week and will post the info here.

How often do you sight? I sight about every 6 strokes or every 9 strokes but am a complete OW beginner.

Cheers, i'd appreciate if u posted it if possible. I probably sight every 12 strokes i.e. 3 sets of 4 strokes with breath to the side and a forward sight/breath on 3rd set. I find having to look up towards target instead of just a side breath very disruptive to the stroke and was wondering is there any tips to minimise this disruption, its just too easy in the pool with the target line below.

I am in the beginner category too, i did hell of the west last year with f all training and relied on general fitness (i played rugby about 6 years ago :rolleyes:) and determination to survive (and not drown in difficult conditions) so i'm trying to train a little for beast of the east this year.

catweazle

Use mapmyrun but turn off follow roads, I was able to get my distance out to the rock and back in my local lake.

I started to sight by doing a big stroke which would push my head and shoulders out of the water where I would take a quick peek on the way back down, not the most efficient way of doing it though.

However if you practice it, it should start to come fairly easily to take a peek which shouldn't ruin your stroke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_ZChLzvII

Micilin Muc

Redzah wrote: »

Cheers, i'd appreciate if u posted it if possible. I probably sight every 12 strokes i.e. 3 sets of 4 strokes with breath to the side and a forward sight/breath on 3rd set. I find having to look up towards target instead of just a side breath very disruptive to the stroke and was wondering is there any tips to minimise this disruption, its just too easy in the pool with the target line below.

When I sight, I turn my head to the side as I usually do for taking a breath but then look forward before planting my face into the water. It doesn't slow me down as much as it would if I just lifted my head forward for taking a breath and sighting.

catweazle wrote: »

Use mapmyrun but turn off follow roads, I was able to get my distance out to the rock and back in my local lake.

I started to sight by doing a big stroke which would push my head and shoulders out of the water where I would take a quick peek on the way back down, not the most efficient way of doing it though.

However if you practice it, it should start to come fairly easily to take a peek which shouldn't ruin your stroke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_ZChLzvII

Google/Bing satellite images don't have clear resolution for spotting the buoys at Seapoint. Thanks for the video

gottarun

Have a look at this video which shows a good sighting technique. If you work with the rhythm of looking forward in the middle of your stroke you can make slight adjustments as you are swimming rather than big corrections every 10 / 12 strokes.

Plenty of other videos on youtube showing much the same techniques

Fazz

I'd categorise myself as pretty brutal for ow sighting, and it's priority 1 beig addressed in sea swims for me.

I've found it obviously a lot better to sight more frequently, and it's become easier to do so without losing rhythm as the more you get used to it the easier it comes.

I'm now prob sighting every 5 strokes max, slightly more only if I've another sighting marker to sides.
I've also found this useful for keeping on drafts where bubbles aren't enough.

My recommendation - sight more frequently and practise it more.
I do 2 sighting methods - one is look up slightly whilst in normal stroke and head back down then (no breath).
Other is to sight on breath so head kinda goes up and to the side.
This seems to be the pro method but takes some getting used to.

Redzah

Fazz wrote: »

I'd categorise myself as pretty brutal for ow sighting, and it's priority 1 beig addressed in sea swims for me.

I've found it obviously a lot better to sight more frequently, and it's become easier to do so without losing rhythm as the more you get used to it the easier it comes.

I'm now prob sighting every 5 strokes max, slightly more only if I've another sighting marker to sides.
I've also found this useful for keeping on drafts where bubbles aren't enough.

My recommendation - sight more frequently and practise it more.
I do 2 sighting methods - one is look up slightly whilst in normal stroke and head back down then (no breath).
Other is to sight on breath so head kinda goes up and to the side.
This seems to be the pro method but takes some getting used to.

Cheers, just saw the video there of the 2 methods. Sight and breath looks like the preferred method but i'd imagine this would take a lot more out of me than what i'm doing at present but i suppose in the long run mastering this method and eliminating the zig zagging is what i'm after. I'll practice it for the next few weeks and update with my progress, cheers. After that its onto biking methods which unfortuneately are limited with my current giant rapid 2 hybrid, although i did get clipless pedals recently.

gottarun

Redzah wrote: »

Cheers, just saw the video there of the 2 methods. Sight and breath looks like the preferred method but i'd imagine this would take a lot more out of me than what i'm doing at present but i suppose in the long run mastering this method and eliminating the zig zagging is what i'm after. I'll practice it for the next few weeks and update with my progress, cheers. After that its onto biking methods which unfortuneately are limited with my current giant rapid 2 hybrid, although i did get clipless pedals recently.

Try and time you sighting with the top of a swell or wave. You will rise naturally our of the water and get a much clearer view of what you should be looking at.

Also long sight. Pick something behind the buoy as your line, its easier to spot from the lower level in the water as the buoy could be in a trough at the moment you look to check.

longshank

gottarun wrote: »

Try and time you sighting with the top of a swell or wave. You will rise naturally our of the water and get a much clearer view of what you should be looking at.

Also long sight. Pick something behind the buoy as your line, its easier to spot from the lower level in the water as the buoy could be in a trough at the moment you look to check.

i've heard this idea of long sighting before iro ow swimming, but in navigation it is considered a big no no.
1degree at 1mile = 35yds
1degree at 3mile = 105yds
the nearer the object you're navigating off the more accurate your judgement. If you miss the buoy on one sighting, look again, forget distant objects would be my advice.

gottarun

In OW swimming its used to help you locate the buoys. You are only looking for a second mid stroke and if you can spot the approximate line the markers are on using the background, you can drop your view to the water pretty much spotting the buoy right away.

Its very hard to spot exit points from water level but a land based marker of building will give you a good guide til you get close enough to spot properly.

Redzah

Did the 590m course in Seapoint last night using the above techniques, i.e. a shallow look forward before falling into a sideways breath every 2 strokes and using a distant object as a sight aid. Worked out alright and def helped, just will take a bit of getting used to. I'll go for the 860m course (to buoy 3) next time to build up the stamina using this technique as i felt pretty good after last night.

One question I have is even though I feel good in the water when I get up out of it i'm very dizzy? Is this normal? Any tips to combat this?

BTH

Redzah wrote: »

One question I have is even though I feel good in the water when I get up out of it i'm very dizzy? Is this normal? Any tips to combat this?

Ear plugs

longshank

Redzah wrote: »

Did the 590m course in Seapoint last night using the above techniques, i.e. a shallow look forward before falling into a sideways breath every 2 strokes and using a distant object as a sight aid. Worked out alright and def helped, just will take a bit of getting used to. I'll go for the 860m course (to buoy 3) next time to build up the stamina using this technique as i felt pretty good after last night.

One question I have is even though I feel good in the water when I get up out of it i'm very dizzy? Is this normal? Any tips to combat this?

when your swimming you are horizontal and the blood is being pumped to your arms/shoulders, when you then stand vertical and stop using your arms the change in blood flow due to change in activity and gravity makes you light headed....the more you practice the less this affects you. You can also kick more at the end of the swim to ease transition of blood flow.
Never heard of ear plugs as a cure for this??

BTH

longshank wrote: »

when your swimming you are horizontal and the blood is being pumped to your arms/shoulders, when you then stand vertical and stop using your arms the change in blood flow due to change in activity and gravity makes you light headed....after a while you stop getting this. You can also kick more at the end of the swim to ease transition of blood flow.
Never heard of ear plugs as a cure for this??

Something about water in your ears affecting your balance. I don't know the science behind it but I can assure you it bloody works.

Redzah

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Ear plugs

Cheers, is it really that simple? I feel stupid for asking now

miller82

Redzah wrote: »

One question I have is even though I feel good in the water when I get up out of it i'm very dizzy? Is this normal? Any tips to combat this?

maybe i am totally wrong and someone will tell you otherwise, but
i thought this was just the blood rushing from your head down to your legs because you werent using them that much (improve your kick :P )
As a result, towards the end of a swim / race i kick a lot harder and more frequently so that i can run out of the water easy enough

okane1

Regarding sighting and number of strokes between sights, here is a little exercise for you.

Go into a swimming pool with lanes. With an empty lane, push off in the middle of the lane. After your first stroke, close your eyes. Keep swimming, counting your strokes and wait until you either hit the lane rope or the wall at the end of the length.

Whatever number of strokes you got when you hit the lane, you should be sighting on this number.
For me, I do a lot of OW swimming and I sight every 20-30 strokes but I tend to swim pretty much in a straight line. When I do the above test, I can do a full length without hitting the lane ropes.
I breathe and sight separately, never at the same time. Then again, I used to play a lot of water polo; swimming with head up is not an issue for me

Micilin Muc

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I don't know the distance but your estimates are in and around what I thought too. I might get a lend of a tri Garmin next week and will post the info here.

FYI I spoke to the lifeguard at Seapoint this afternoon and he said it's 200m out to the first buoy and 250m between the other buoys.

Redzah

Micilin Muc wrote: »

FYI I spoke to the lifeguard at Seapoint this afternoon and he said it's 200m out to the first buoy and 250m between the other buoys.

Yep, 200m to the first buoy is spot on by my calculations as my laser hit it at 219 yards which is pretty much spot on when converted to metres. Although i think its def shorter than 250m between buoy 1 and 2 unless my maths is failing me , based on those calculations I need to go out to buoy 4 and back to be well prepared which will give me a distance of 1.9km. It sounds alright once i get my stroke and sighting technique in shape, cheers.

Did u manage to get in for a dip yourself once out there? how is the training progressing?

miller82

Micilin Muc wrote: »

FYI I spoke to the lifeguard at Seapoint this afternoon and he said it's 200m out to the first buoy and 250m between the other buoys.

sorry lads, just want to get this clear in my head, as i sometimes swim out there. so when you get into the water at the tower, facing out, the first buoy is 200m and then swing a right is it ? to the next buoy and thats another 250 metres and then 250 again to the next one ?

Its been a few weeks since i've been out there

Redzah

miller82 wrote: »

sorry lads, just want to get this clear in my head, as i sometimes swim out there. so when you get into the water at the tower, facing out, the first buoy is 200m and then swing a right is it ? to the next buoy and thats another 250 metres and then 250 again to the next one ?

Its been a few weeks since i've been out there

Yep exactly so from the slip the fartherst left buoy is 200m which 100% accurate as I checked it with my laser rangefinder from the slip. Then swinging a right the lifeguard says its 250m to each buoy but personally i think its shorter from buoy 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3 as well, I have it more around the 175m mark but i'm using trigonometory to calculate this and its not a perfect right angle. However, its def not 250m from buoy 1 to 2 based on the time it took me to swim this backed up by my calculations, it'd be great if some1 with a garmin could let us know the distance.

Micilin Muc

Redzah wrote: »

Yep, 200m to the first buoy is spot on by my calculations as my laser hit it at 219 yards which is pretty much spot on when converted to metres. Although i think its def shorter than 250m between buoy 1 and 2 unless my maths is failing me , based on those calculations I need to go out to buoy 4 and back to be well prepared which will give me a distance of 1.9km. It sounds alright once i get my stroke and sighting technique in shape, cheers.

Did u manage to get in for a dip yourself once out there? how is the training progressing?

I'm not really training for anything tri- or swim-wise just yet, but certainly building up a base Did the 400m course at lunchtime as I work nearby. Hope to build up to the longer course more regularly. I'm still getting to know the water there and have already badly cut my toe on rocks (needed tetanus booster in arm).

miller82 wrote: »

sorry lads, just want to get this clear in my head, as i sometimes swim out there. so when you get into the water at the tower, facing out, the first buoy is 200m and then swing a right is it ? to the next buoy and thats another 250 metres and then 250 again to the next one ?

Its been a few weeks since i've been out there

That's it My 4th-class maths is cr^p, can someone calculate the distance back to the Martello Tower from the second buoy?!!

Maybe a Seapoint swimming thread would be handy, any mods fancy splitting out the posts into a new thread?

Redzah

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I'm not really training for anything tri- or swim-wise just yet, but certainly building up a base Did the 400m course at lunchtime as I work nearby. Hope to build up to the longer course more regularly. I'm still getting to know the water there and have already badly cut my toe on rocks (needed tetanus booster in arm).



That's it My 4th-class maths is cr^p, can someone calculate the distance back to the Martello Tower from the second buoy?!!

Maybe a Seapoint swimming thread would be handy, any mods fancy splitting out the posts into a new thread?

I also hit it from the slip to buoy 2 with my laser and from what i remember i think it came in at 261 yards which is 237m.

Actually based on that my original maths calculations are a bit off (as i used 261 as the metres figure but it was yards) so taking 237m as the hypothenuse then the calculation would be;

200m sq'd + X sq'd = 237m sq'd

= 40000 + X sq'd = 56169
= 16169 = X sq'd
= 127 = X

Therefore my caculations would have buoy 1 to 2 at 127m which is way off 250m but mine would be slightly off as its not a perfect right angle, it's def not 250m though.

Total loop of out to buoy 1 then to 2 and then back would be = 200+127+237=564m

miller82

Redzah wrote: »

I also hit it from the slip to buoy 2 with my laser and from what i remember i think it came in at 261 yards which is 237m.

Actually based on that my original maths calculations are a bit off (as i used 261 as the metres figure but it was yards) so taking 237m as the hypothenuse then the calculation would be;

200m sq'd + X sq'd = 237m sq'd

= 40000 + X sq'd = 56169
= 16169 = X sq'd
= 127 = X

Therefore my caculations would have buoy 1 to 2 at 127m which is way off 250m but mine would be slightly off as its not a perfect right angle, it's def not 250m though.

Total loop of out to buoy 1 then to 2 and then back would be = 200+127+237=564m

lifeguard would hardly have been that far off ??

Redzah

miller82 wrote: »

lifeguard would hardly have been that far off ??

You'd like to think he's not but based on the math and from the practical experience i have from swimming it i def think that buoy 1 to 2 is not 250m nor is it even close to that, if some1 can prove me wrong with a garmin then fair enough but i think he's between 100-125m off from buoy 1 to 2 i.e. that its somewhere between 125-150m. It's great if i'm proved wrong coz it means i've swam furhter than i though i did and in a good time

Micilin Muc

Definitive answer on distance between buoys at Seapoint in Dublin - Garmin Link.

Martello Tower to 1st buoy (on the left looking out) - 200m
1st to 2nd - 134m
2nd to 3rd - 133m
3rd to 4th - 156m
4th to 5th - 155m
5th back to Tower - 650m

I walked out at low-tide today with my Garmin in the air :rolleyes: I should have been in the pub :pac:

Redzah's trigonometry is not bad at all!

insinkerator

That's the first practical use of trigonometry I've seen since I left school :P