difference between credit unions?

lolo62

i want to open a credit union account to start saving with them and plan to apply for a loan later to further my studies

ive heard you can get better loans in some credit unions than others based on their location....is this true?

i live between ballyfermot and inchicore so am trying to decide whether it would be better to go with one over the other...

coylemj

I believe local credit unions will only deal with people who live in their catchment area, this is to prevent people hopping from one to the other and leaving debts behind them. In your case, you will probably find that the two CUs you mentioned have an agreed boundary between their respective areas, the boundary may be defined along public roads or it may correspond to electoral areas or Catholic parishes. Whichever way they have carved up your part of the city, I'd be pretty certain that you will not have a choice as to which of them you can join.

By 'local' I mean credit unions with a local office near you as opposed to work-related credit unions like the Gardai, ESB, Aer Lingus etc.

sallywin

Why do the Gardaí and ESB get their own credit unions and preferential rates? Grossly unfair to private tax payers.

coylemj

sallywin wrote: »

Why do the Gardaí and ESB get their own credit unions and preferential rates? Grossly unfair to private tax payers.

Explain 'preferential rates'?

Each CU takes in money from it's members and lends it out to the same members. If one CU gives better rates than another, it's a combination of more efficient management i.e. less operating costs and/or better credit control i.e. less bad debts.

The Gardai, ESB etc. credit unions are all run on the same basis as your local CU, they get no subsidy from the taxpayer and have to cover their costs same as any other CU.

sallywin

coylemj wrote: »

Explain 'preferential rates'?

Each CU takes in money from it's members and lends it out to the same members. If one CU gives better rates than another, it's a combination of more efficient management i.e. less operating costs and/or better credit control i.e. less bad debts.

The Gardai, ESB etc. credit unions are all run on the same basis as your local CU, they get no subsidy from the taxpayer and have to cover their costs same as any other CU.

It's another benefit in kind. They get preferential rates based on the security of their jobs which are effectively paid for by the tax payer (of course). I don't see why they should get better loan rate than that tax payer though, do you?

coylemj

sallywin wrote: »

It's another benefit in kind. They get preferential rates based on the security of their jobs which are effectively paid for by the tax payer (of course). I don't see why they should get better loan rate than that tax payer though, do you?

If the ESB and other semi-state CUs offer better rates than local CUs, its because 100% of their members are in paid employment and defaulters can't just run away and leave debts behind them because deductions to pay loans are via the payroll so there is an extremely low rate of bad debts. However the same circumstances would obtain in a CU based in private companies like Guinness and CRH, it has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

westies4ever

sallywin wrote: »

Why do the Gardaí and ESB get their own credit unions and preferential rates? Grossly unfair to private tax payers.

eircom, teachers, hse workers, an post, the army and probably more professions all also have their own credit unions. its nothing to do with prefrential rates or benefit in kind. they open an account and save as with all credit unions. all credit unions are basically co-operatives. the tax payers money doesnt come into it at all.

sallywin

It does, in the sense that these are civil service jobs, paid for by the taxpayer. It is unfair that the guy working a 40 hour week in the private sector gets a 0.5% on his savings in the credit union and a 10% rate on a personal loan, while the post office worker or whoever gets more interest on savings, pays less on loans. It's unfair and it is a benefit in kind. Tell me how it's not a benefit in kind. I have no issue with private sector based credit unions, none whatsoever. They are the life of the economy.

Also I don't begrudge them it in case people have that in their minds, I am simply pointing out the unfairness of it.

westies4ever

sallywin wrote: »

It does, in the sense that these are civil service jobs, paid for by the taxpayer. It is unfair that the guy working a 40 hour week in the private sector gets a 0.5% on his savings in the credit union and a 10% rate on a personal loan, while the post office worker or whoever gets more interest on savings, pays less on loans. It's unfair and it is a benefit in kind. Tell me how it's not a benefit in kind. I have no issue with private sector based credit unions, none whatsoever. They are the life of the economy.

Also I don't begrudge them it in case people have that in their minds, I am simply pointing out the unfairness of it.

rubbish - there is no such thing as interest on savings in a credit union; if the credit union does well, a dividend is paid to the member at the end of the year; if it doesnt then a lesser or no dividend is paid.

how do you know what interest rate these credit unions charge on loans? the interest rate on loans in the An post credit union is 8.9% - same as my local credit union.

maybe you'd like to back up your allegations with some links or evidence??

as well as that you've got the ethos of a credit union all wrong. its a group of people or a community, be that a town, or a profession who have got together to set it up.

as previously stated, if it is well run, chances are interest rates on loans will be lower and dividends will be higher. its got nothing to do with private or public sector and/or tax payers money. fairness is completely irrelevant. i suggest you look at creditunion.ie and do some research on the background of credit unions.

sallywin

westies4ever wrote: »

rubbish - there is no such thing as interest on savings in a credit union; if the credit union does well, a dividend is paid to the member at the end of the year; if it doesnt then a lesser or no dividend is paid.

how do you know what interest rate these credit unions charge on loans? the interest rate on loans in the An post credit union is 8.9% - same as my local credit union.

maybe you'd like to back up your allegations with some links or evidence??

as well as that you've got the ethos of a credit union all wrong. its a group of people or a community, be that a town, or a profession who have got together to set it up.

as previously stated, if it is well run, chances are interest rates on loans will be lower and dividends will be higher. its got nothing to do with private or public sector and/or tax payers money. fairness is completely irrelevant. i suggest you look at creditunion.ie and do some research on the background of credit unions.

Rubbish. You know by interest I meant dividends- as in a gain, an increase to your savings. I have a credit union account for years as I have a bank account. An increase is an increase, call it dividend, or interest, you know what I meant, so stop being disingenuous.

I have heard about garda credit unions giving loans at 6% before and I'm sure that would be very easily verified if I wanted to get evidence of that. I know that my own local credit union gives charges interest on loans at 10%, a far cry from that 6% I'm sure you would agree.

It's a benefit in kind that I don't begrudge a public service worker but it is an unfair one.

westies4ever

round and round and round we go :rolleyes:

golden lane

sallywin wrote: »

Rubbish. You know by interest I meant dividends- as in a gain, an increase to your savings. I have a credit union account for years as I have a bank account. An increase is an increase, call it dividend, or interest, you know what I meant, so stop being disingenuous.

I have heard about garda credit unions giving loans at 6% before and I'm sure that would be very easily verified if I wanted to get evidence of that. I know that my own local credit union gives charges interest on loans at 10%, a far cry from that 6% I'm sure you would agree.

It's a benefit in kind that I don't begrudge a public service worker but it is an unfair one.

open the sallwin credit union......charge no interest....it's a free country......

sallywin

westies4ever wrote: »

round and round and round we go :rolleyes:

I'm afraid is it is yourself and coyle who repeated my comments back at me if you care to go back over the posts.
If you can't admit it's unfair then you've got a problem.

amen

I believe local credit unions will only deal with people who live in their catchment area

Sort of true. The members must have a common bond which is normally a geographic location but it could just as easily be club/sport. There is nothing stopping someone forming a credit union with membership of boards and greater than 1000 posts as the common bond.

I have heard about garda credit unions giving loans at 6% before

I know some CUs that give loans of 4% for community loans, 5% for education, 6% for cars and 7-9% for other loans.

coylemj

sallywin wrote: »

I'm afraid is it is yourself and coyle who repeated my comments back at me if you care to go back over the posts.

You take offence at my use of the 'Quote' button? Why do think there is a quote button in the first place?

For your information, the quote button is used by responders as a courtesy to the poster they are replying to in order that people are in no doubt as to exactly which post is being responded to.

If you have a problem with the basic protocols of boards.ie maybe you should find a different forum.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

I believe local credit unions will only deal with people who live in their catchment area

amen wrote: »

Sort of true. The members must have a common bond which is normally a geographic location but it could just as easily be club/sport.

That was a selective quote you picked, I also said the following...

coylemj wrote: »

By 'local' I mean credit unions with a local office near you as opposed to work-related credit unions like the Gardai, ESB, Aer Lingus etc.

I was only addressing the issues concerning credit unions with a geographic base because that was the nub of the OP's query, I made that quite clear if you care to study my post in full.

Marquis de carabas

sallywin wrote: »

westies4ever wrote: »

round and round and round we go :rolleyes:

I'm afraid is it is yourself and coyle who repeated my comments back at me if you care to go back over the posts.
If you can't admit it's unfair then you've got a problem.

If you believe something is unfair then presumably you have a fairer arrangement in mind. So you want to do what? Take money from some credit unions and give them to others, turn them into small banks by letting everyone join?

Credit unions are groups of people who come together and pool their resources. It has nothing to do with one group having an unfair advantage over another. If my friends and I want to lend money to another friend and not charge him for it would you think that's unfair to you?

This culture of entitlement where everyone thinks they should get something because someone else has it really annoys me.

sallywin

coylemj wrote: »

You take offence at my use of the 'Quote' button? Why do think there is a quote button in the first place?

For your information, the quote button is used by responders as a courtesy to the poster they are replying to in order that people are in no doubt as to exactly which post is being responded to.

If you have a problem with the basic protocols of boards.ie maybe you should find a different forum.

Good lord, where did I mention anything about quotes? I meant that you had repeated (reiterated) my own comments (as per job security ascertaining the preferential rates) thereby adding no value to this thread. Seriously, how you managed to think that I meant using the quote button is unfathomable.

sallywin

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

If you believe something is unfair then presumably you have a fairer arrangement in mind. So you want to do what? Take money from some credit unions and give them to others, turn them into small banks by letting everyone join?

Credit unions are groups of people who come together and pool their resources. It has nothing to do with one group having an unfair advantage over another. If my friends and I want to lend money to another friend and not charge him for it would you think that's unfair to you?

This culture of entitlement where everyone thinks they should get something because someone else has it really annoys me.

Again it's nothing to do with culture of entitlement. When Michael O'Leary calls for abolition of tourist taxes on flights because other places don't charge those taxes do you call that a culture of entitlement also?

BuffyBot

sallywin wrote: »

It's a benefit in kind that I don't begrudge a public service worker but it is an unfair one.

Absolutely nonsensical, on so many levels. If you live in Ballygobackwards and the Credit Union there has a rate of 7% where your neighbour in Kilmacbogtown has a rate of 9% with their CU would you be crying unfair on their behalf? No.

Credit Unions can settle their own rates on the basis of their own memberships, the risks involved etc. The money no more comes from the state than if your neighbour in Kilmacbogtown was a teacher at the local school. Would that mean Kilmacbogtown CU is "effectively" being subsidised by the state? The members of the Garda CU etc are paying in out of their own money, which they earn.

Life is very rarely "fair". Financial institutions do better deals for some customers than others all the time.

You might as well criticise banks for giving fee-free accounts to students, insurance companies for rewarding safer drivers.

Marquis de carabas

sallywin wrote: »

Again it's nothing to do with culture of entitlement. When Michael O'Leary calls for abolition of tourist taxes on flights because other places don't charge those taxes do you call that a culture of entitlement also?

Lending rates by private organisations and tax are two completely different things.

There worlds apart in practically every way. I shouldn't have to explain why a tax system exists the way it does but the reason why Mr O'Leary's company pays taxes is so the burden is reduced on other citizens.

The tax system forms part of a wide social contract and some of us pay more towards it then others and this level is agreed on by a government we elect. There are so many problems with your comparison I could go on all day.

At the end of the day none of this deals with the op's issue. But really in future I wouldn't use Michael O'Leary as an example of someone who doesn't expect something for nothing.

sallywin

Marquis, there is a breakdown in understanding here, again. I used the example of Michael O'Leary precisely for that reason, i.e because he is the last person to expect something for nothing. It was to get across to you that just because I think preferential rates for civil service jobs are unfair does not necessarily mean that that adds up to a sense of entitlement. No more than O'Leary demanding reduction in unfair and self-defeating taxes.

Do you understand why I brought O'Leary up now?
If not, then at this stage I really can't help you.

Like I said, good luck to those who gain from it but it's their job security that gains them these preferential rates, as I mentioned in one of the first posts on this thread, and therefore this is a benefit in kind. Take that or leave it. But remember that it is the private sector who provide that job security. Those people do their day's work like the private sector worker and I have no issue with that whatsoever, we won't get in to productivity in certain parts of the civil service, lack of bench-marking, etc. Leaving aside all of that stuff taking it on the basis that the private sector guy on contract can't get access to these rates and yet the public service guy can, it's an anomaly.

Marquis de carabas

sallywin wrote: »

Marquis, there is a breakdown in understanding here, again. I used the example of Michael O'Leary precisely for that reason, i.e because he is the last person to expect something for nothing. It was to get across to you that just because I think preferential rates for civil service jobs are unfair does not necessarily mean that that adds up to a sense of entitlement. No more than O'Leary demanding reduction in unfair and self-defeating taxes.

Do you understand why I brought O'Leary up now?
If not, then at this stage I really can't help you.

Like I said, good luck to those who gain from it but it's their job security that gains them these preferential rates, as I mentioned in one of the first posts on this thread, and therefore this is a benefit in kind. Take that or leave it. But remember that it is the private sector who provide that job security. Those people do their day's work like the private sector worker and I have no issue with that whatsoever, we won't get in to productivity in certain parts of the civil service, lack of bench-marking, etc. Leaving aside all of that stuff taking it on the basis that the private sector guy on contract can't get access to these rates and yet the public service guy can, it's an anomaly.

You mis read my post. Michael O'Leary does expect something for nothing. He bullies and threatens his staff and the government to get what he wants. That's why I don't understand you.

What I do understand is your one of those people who turns everything into a public/private thing.

Not withstanding the flaws in looking at the world in that way the reason why no one is agreeing with you is because credit unions are private organisations. Most have members from all sectors of society.

If you can't understand that then you have a problem.

coylemj

sallywin wrote: »

Like I said, good luck to those who gain from it but it's their job security that gains them these preferential rates, as I mentioned in one of the first posts on this thread, and therefore this is a benefit in kind.

You should open a new thread if that's your point. This thread is about credit unions where being a civil servant or Garda confers no advantage whatsoever because all the members are treated equally.

Your grievance seems to be that civil servants and other state employees who have job security are able to get loans at preferential rates. Yes they can, but not from credit unions.

Anyone

Occupational CU's get paid directrly from a persons wages. This removes a lot of the risk and costs involved in lending. Also, I would imagine 99% of the transactions done are electronic, so theres little or no need for tellers which again cuts costs.

You can claim they are "preferential" rates Sallywin, but they aren't, they just dont have the same levels of costs as community credit unions.

westies4ever

sallywin so you're right and we're all wrong. i get it. but what about bank staff getting preferential interest rates on loans and mortgages? what about certain employers providing free health insurance as part of a package, reduced membership fees to gyms etc? and sure salesmen often get company cars and a free phone? are you going to bash all these as benefits in kind? or is it just the public sector?

you're arguments are flawed on so many levels and i suspect you have a problem with the publice service sector rather than the credit unions.

and by the way i looked it up - the gardai credit union charge 8.25% interest on loans (not the 6% you quoted) - the information is freely available on the gardai credit union website - your information is hearsay and speculation.

sallywin

Nope I have no issue with public servants, especially the likes of the gardaí, good teachers, nurses, etc. I will admit to having issues with the middle management sods on 60k plus who add very little value to the country and yet are all the while happy to suck as much from the system as they can. they are little better than the politicians and they get almost no slack about it. But then this is Ireland.

I take your point, though, that the cus are private organisations, and can call their own rates.

Can any group or entity with a common interest set up their own credit union? Like what kind of capital do you have to have to start one up? How many members?

I like dealing with my own credit union but despite it being a rural area where everyone knows everybody else, bad debts mounted in, leaving me with crap interest rate on my savings that it wasn't worthwhile leaving any money on deposit. So on one level can you see how i might think the system is unfair? I pay back my debts but I get punished because another person can't/don't pay their loans back. Whereas the civil servant's credit union do get the preferential rates in comparison.

I take your point but can you accept mine also?

Anyone

The Financial Regulator wont allow any new Credit Unions to form these days, they want a lower amount of Credit Unions, not more. So while legally any group of people can form a credit union, you wont get regulator approval to start one.

westies4ever

sallywin wrote: »

I like dealing with my own credit union but despite it being a rural area where everyone knows everybody else, bad debts mounted in, leaving me with crap interest rate on my savings that it wasn't worthwhile leaving any money on deposit.

oh dear; again completely missing the point of The Credit Union. its a co-operative. everyone is in it together. its never been somewhere to hold savings for a high return. its for local people to have access to credit at a reasonable rate. people who would otherwise not be able to access lending aside from moneylenders.

Many people have lost their jobs and are unable to repay their loans or at least not at the level that they were. The Credit Unions are much more reasonable to deal with when this happens than the banks are. So they should be punished? what happens when or if you lose your job and cant repay your loan?

As well as that, there are other benefits that you dont get with other financial institutions. free life insurance, loan protection - in other words if you die, or if you are rendered unable to work through accident or illness, the credit union insurance clears your loan - the banks would either continue to pursue you or claim back the money from your estate.

if you die, your loved ones get your shares and extra - if no money withdrawn and depending on the balance of your shares, this can be up to €7k. you dont get that with banks.

Flexible repayment terms to suit you on loans, friendly, local staff - i could go on. you say your local credit union charge 10% on loans - thats still a hell of a lot less thna the banks charge on personal loans.

the credit union are always there through good times and bad. when this recession ends and people get back to work, they'll look after the credit union that was good to them. the credit union profits will then go back up and you'll get your dividend. like any good community, credit union members enjoy rewards in the good times and stick together and look after each other in the bad. that is the core of the credit union ethos.

i suggest you visit creditunion.ie and read up on the history of the organisation. ireland would be lost without them.

SerialComplaint

sallywin wrote: »

It does, in the sense that these are civil service jobs, paid for by the taxpayer. It is unfair that the guy working a 40 hour week in the private sector gets a 0.5% on his savings in the credit union and a 10% rate on a personal loan, while the post office worker or whoever gets more interest on savings, pays less on loans. It's unfair and it is a benefit in kind. Tell me how it's not a benefit in kind. I have no issue with private sector based credit unions, none whatsoever. They are the life of the economy.

Also I don't begrudge them it in case people have that in their minds, I am simply pointing out the unfairness of it.

It's a nonsense argument. Large numbers of people in the public sector have lost their jobs, through contracts not being renewed. These credit unions are dealing with bad debts and unemployment too. The reason why these credit unions work is through cooperative spirit. It was open to any group of employees to set up their own cooperative credit union - and some did - such as the Taxi owners Credit Union.

sallywin

Anyone wrote: »

The Financial Regulator wont allow any new Credit Unions to form these days, they want a lower amount of Credit Unions, not more. So while legally any group of people can form a credit union, you wont get regulator approval to start one.

Cheers for that info Anyone. I was almost led to believe that it was available to any group! And imagine my audacity in questioning the fairness of the system, oh deary me indeed. So the benefit in kind stands. Lovely dovely.

sallywin

westies4ever wrote: »

i suggest you visit creditunion.ie and read up on the history of the organisation. ireland would be lost without them.

Like I said I'm a member of one in a long time but I didn't know that 1/ Any group could have set one up and 2/ That is no longer the case.

Viva la Financial Regulator.

SerialComplaint

sallywin wrote: »

Cheers for that info Anyone. I was almost led to believe that it was available to any group! And imagine my audacity in questioning the fairness of the system, oh deary me indeed. So the benefit in kind stands. Lovely dovely.

There is no benefit in kind. The benefit arises from the particular group of employees getting together and working cooperatively. This option was available to any group of employees, and indeed is still available to area-based credit unions and other CUs.

sallywin

@Anyone, would you know when the Financial Regulator ruled that new credit unions cannot be set up? And if it wasn't a ruling as such is it deemed as 'policy'?

Anyone

sallywin wrote: »

@Anyone, would you know when the Financial Regulator ruled that new credit unions cannot be set up? And if it wasn't a ruling as such is it deemed as 'policy'?

Its not a ruling, they will just make it impossible to form one. The regulations there right now and coming would make it impossible.

westies4ever

@salllywin - you're jumping around all over the place - what exactly is your issue? The Credit Unions, The Public Sector or the Financial regulator?????

sallywin

westies4ever wrote: »

@salllywin - you're jumping around all over the place - what exactly is your issue? The Credit Unions, The Public Sector or the Financial regulator?????

Fairness.

What's your own view on the public sector- not just front line staff?
What's your own view on the new regulations the FR has put in place regarding the creation of new credit unions?

SerialComplaint

sallywin wrote: »

Fairness.

And what specifically is unfair about a group of employees who have a whole range of working conditions and entitlements (including fixed term contracts, part time contracts, shift workers, casual workers) coming together in a cooperative manner to share their resources for the benefit of the group?

One might wonder why, if this model is so unfair, there wasn't a mad rush to set up the Microsoft credit union and the Intel credit union and the Pfizer credit union during the good times?

sallywin

SerialComplaint wrote: »

And what specifically is unfair about a group of employees who have a whole range of working conditions and entitlements (including fixed term contracts, part time contracts, shift workers, casual workers) coming together in a cooperative manner to share their resources for the benefit of the group?

One might wonder why, if this model is so unfair, there wasn't a mad rush to set up the Microsoft credit union and the Intel credit union and the Pfizer credit union during the good times?

Do you think it's fair that private sector workers, say in IT industry, who have just graduated. set up their own companies, for example, and want their own credit union just like the post office workers, can't actually have one, and yet their tax revenue is providing the job security for the public sector workers who do enjoy their own credit union?

I've yet to hear Marquis', and your, actual views on public sector (outside of front line staff) and on the FR regulations for new credit unions.

Abair amach é.

Marquis de carabas

sallywin wrote: »

I've yet to hear Marquis', and your, actual views on public sector (outside of front line staff) and on the FR regulations for new credit unions.

Abair amach é.

I don't know why you'd single me out as you never even asked me about my views.

You have two problems. The first is despite multiple posters explaining it you seem incapable of actually grasping what a credit union is.

The second is you want to start a discussion on public versus private. That's fine but start a new thread to add to the hundreds already out there. This was about credit unions not where people work. As I've already stated most credit unions have members from all sectors of the economy.

By the way you may say you have no problem with front line staff but all your language suggests you view the public sector as a leech on the private. My view since you asked is that I have no time to discuss such things with someone with such a narrow point of view.

The economy works as a whole and we rise or fall together. People who think one sector has to be destroyed so the other can survive are misguided at best. Think communism in reverse.

I might have my issues with the public sector but Im not insane enough to view everything in life as a public/private issue. I'd like to believe your not trolling but that just makes it even sadder.

BuffyBot

Indeed, folks might want to reign in the conversation and pull it back on topic

westies4ever

sallywin wrote: »

Fairness.

What's your own view on the public sector- not just front line staff?
What's your own view on the new regulations the FR has put in place regarding the creation of new credit unions?

This is my last post given the Moderators post above but since you asked:

It none of your business what my opinion is on the public sector - this is a thread about credit unions and that is the only subject I have spoken on here.

i have no opinion on the regulations the FR has put in place regarding the creation of new credit unions as it's the first I've heard of it and I have done no research/background reading on it - and neither have you.

SerialComplaint

sallywin wrote: »

Do you think it's fair that private sector workers, say in IT industry, who have just graduated. set up their own companies, for example, and want their own credit union just like the post office workers, can't actually have one, and yet their tax revenue is providing the job security for the public sector workers who do enjoy their own credit union?

It's a nonsense arguement. There is no general ban on new credit unions opening up, as others have pointed out. You're trying to use the fact that there have been difficulties in the credit union sector to stir up yet another public vs private debate. If your group of IT workers can make a case to the regulator as to how they can set up a stable CU, then off they go.

It does seem just a little bit strange that there has never been any huge outcry from the IT industry about difficulties setting up their own credit union. But feel free to keep trying to build a huge mounting out of a molehill, or just an anthill really. It's a non-issue. The IT folk can join their local credit union, depending on where they live or where they work. If they happen to work in Dublin Airport for example, they can join St Josephs Credit Union, regardless of whether they are public or private sector employees. If they do a bit of nixer taxi driving, they can join the Taxi credit union. There are no shortage of CUs out there for private sector employees.

sallywin wrote: »

I've yet to hear Marquis', and your, actual views on public sector (outside of front line staff) and on the FR regulations for new credit unions.

That's right - you've yet to hear my actual views on a whole range of issues, because none of them are relevant to this thread. Stop trolling please.

sallywin

Yup, not willing to come out and state your own views, but instead happy to say what you think mine are. Weak, folks, weak.

sallywin

SerialComplaint wrote: »

That's right - you've yet to hear my actual views on a whole range of issues, because none of them are relevant to this thread. Stop trolling please.

I'm not the one trolling. People here tried to insinuate that I have a problem with the public sector en masse, someone even used the word 'leech'. Read back over the posts!

I'm done here anyway by the way!

BuffyBot

Sometimes when you're told to put something down, you should really just put it down.