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Boundary moved - Implications
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19-06-2012 12:08pm#1
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Why dont you build a wall between yourself and the neighbour? That would keep people from looking in, and keep you from seeing the goings-on in the neighbours garage. It would cost waaaaaaaaaayy less than a legal persuit. This time, you take 8 inches of their ground!
LOL!, newmug! Easier said than done! There already is a a five and half foot wall there and his garage is a lean-to against the part that juts eight inches into my garden!
It was suggested I put a trellis up to block out the view - but that would be a last resort, as I have issues with the noise and sounds of various goings on wafting over from that side. If I were to put up a trellis, that would be saying to them "Carry on as you please!" I'm not ready for that yet!
Also, there is the question of electric wires that they have running down from the house to the lean-to just above the wall. Before putting up trellis, there would the health and safety issue to be considered.
If I tried, I couldn't make up this story!
Thanks newmug, for your interesting suggestion.
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engineermike wrote: »Hi OP,
What you have is a long winding costly road - with no surety of winning due to the time lapsed and the fact the relocation of the boundary was discussed with you at the time the neighbor was doing the work.
The ancillary effects which you mentioned all though difficult to bear - are muddy'd by the fact the relocation of the boundary was accepted in principal by you at the time.
Yes you would need a site survey by an engineer / surveyor with adequate PI and planning law experience in the first instance, secondly very deep pockets to pursue the legal avenue and enter into the process fully in the knowledge that you may lose.
The only aid to your case is if the substantial modifications undertaken by the neighbor have had an adverse affect (which must be proven with recorded damage) - to services or structures upon your property.
Personally having dealt with a number of these type of disputes -
( I actually remember one where the boundary dispute was resolved and a wall rebuilt in place of the old one - however the neighbor having lost the dispute - would not allow access to his property to re build the wall, which was at the side of the extension on my clients property, - suspending the block layers was the only way to rebuild - lucky the foundations of the old wall were still in place)
My advice would be to build / or carry out your own property - rear extension modifications with views and ope's away from the offending neighbor's wall
- take the cost from them to have the boundary redrawn on planning doc's, and plant certain trees to obscure the view ?
Basically I'd be looking for out of the box solutions to the problem.
Regards,
Mike F:)
Mike, I resonate with just about everything you say here! I am painfully aware, that I need to think outside of the box in order to get anywhere with this. Rather, I need very good advice from someone who can help me with it - a person who is prepared to think outside the box on my behalf!
I don't have any extensions ATM and their lean-to garage is at the bottom end of my garden. Certainly, it is a good suggestion to put some kind of structure that would obscure the view of their garage, which opens towards my kitchen / breakfast room. Again I'd have to think, what would use that structure for. A sun-room? a potting shed? I think not, because I would not want to be partaking of any activity in such close proximity to the sounds of what's going on there. The only use I would find for a structure there would be a storage shed, which would take a lot from my garden, which ATM has lawn and a herbaceous border. Besides. I already have a tool shed at the end of my garden where there is a veggie plot.My advice would be to build / or carry out your own property - rear extension modifications with views and ope's away from the offending neighbor's wall
I am thinking my strongest points are the negative results arising form this boundary change - garage activity:
* invasion of my privacy by strangers driving in in high vehicles such as Hi-Ace vans, couriers, taxis etc.
* the fact I've had to move out of my bedroom due to nuisance noises, thus I do not have the full use of my house, which I have paid for.
* my intention to update my kitchen / breakfast room, which will not be possible due to the privacy issue mentioned above, which would even be increased by opening up these rooms.
I believe there is a cumulative issue here, that could be considered, and everything taken into account.
The fact that an auctioneer has told me, off the cuff, that they would find it impossible to sell my house, and therefore would not take it on, due to the presence of that business, seems like a good point too. If I could get an auctioneer to repeat this, it possibly might be a way to go!The only aid to your case is if the substantial modifications undertaken by the neighbor have had an adverse affect (which must be proven with recorded damage) - to services or structures upon your property.
In the original leases under which these houses were sold initially, it clearly states that there should be no businesses set up in the back yards, such as garages, as this is a residential area. That was back in the 60's/70's. That lease stood when I bought my house. I think, though, that the neighbours could have bought out the lease, and therefore wouldn't be bound by it. Smart!Yes you would need a site survey by an engineer / surveyor with adequate PI and planning law experience in the first instance,
I agree. I think that will be my next move.
Re "deep pockets" - there's very few people can claim to have them! :rolleyes:
I think, no matter what I do, it's going to cost some money.take the cost from them to have the boundary redrawn on planning doc's
Agree! I think they should be made to pay something, to wipe the smirks off their faces!
Thanks again, engineermike! The points you made are very valid and have helped me further tease out this question.0 -
Old head on, this solves nothing, only give more money and work to solicitors down the line.....
IMO it (boundary) has, at this stage, nothing to do with Planning and is a job for legals but, depending on the commercial use of the shed, this is an issue that, as PUT has pointed out, is an ongoing issue for, at the very least, the Chief Fire Officer.
Council Rates department might be interested too???????
Bar that, we are not in the business of "Morals" in this forum, just plain good old fashioned, black and white, legislation....:D
Rayjdav, Sorry! I think our posts must have crossed and I'm only seeing your reply to Newmug now! I think Newmug was a bit tongue-in-cheek joking when he/she suggested I build another wall eight inches into the neighbour's property. Nevertheless, I'm glad of everybody's comments.
I agree with you, that it is purely a case of "legislation", as I don't think, there would be a lot of point in appealing to these people' sense of morality. Where legislation is concerned, I may be on some shaky ground, considering so much time has passed. Nevertheless, I intend to leave no stone unturned to find a way of resolving this - to my satisfaction.
Yes, there probably is a case there for the Chief fire officer! They have electric wires (several) going from their house to their shed /garage just above the boundary wall and connecting to the lean-to just about 18 above the wall at the bottom end. I have mentioned, already, that that would definitely be an issue, were I to consider putting up a trellis. There actually are trees from my garden coming in contact with these wires at this very moment. I intend getting advice, first of all, from my electrician, when he next comes by to finish a job he has started.
Thank you, Rayjdav, for these very good points. Every bit helps! 0 -
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They could of built the garage without the 8". Especially because they have such a big site. So your association of the car repair and the boundary is baseless imo.
Drawings won have to be amended.
Jeered?
They offer you compensation for overstepping the boundary?
Was the amount not adequate? Or do you jut want them to knock the garage.
If the car repair has been operating 30 years there may be nothing you can do at this stage.
Regarding the issue of privacy. There was no boundary wall when you bought it. It's not their fault that you can each see into to each other properties. You've had over 30 years to build a wall of some form of privacy. Again this is a separate issue to overstepping the boundary.
Wow! Mellor! Your post sounds like a cross-examination! Nevertheless, I will try to respond to the best of my ability.
Wrong! The boundary was moved in order to facilitate building this lean-to garage, for the son's "hobby" :eek: They could have built anywhere else, except for the fact there was a small hedge jutting into their garden, that they were not willing to uproot, and that served as a screen to hide a lot of stuff. Also, the hedge meant they would not be able to swing cars around into the lean-to without the extra space gained from moving the shed into my garden.They could of built the garage without the 8". Especially because they have such a big site. So your association of the car repair and the boundary is baseless imo.
I'll grant you that point, Mellor.If the car repair has been operating 30 years there may be nothing you can do at this stage. At the same time, I am not prepared to just give up and do nothing, if there is even a small chance that some change may be effected, through looking into every detail and exploring every avenue open to me.
I accept your point, Mellor! True! Back in the 70's though, when I bought my house, things were a lot different. For a start, there were no walls between any of the neighbours. I have neighbours on three sides of me. We all knew and trusted each other unconditionally. Gradully, people wanted more privacy and started to build walls. I did not satrt any of the walls. Before that, we would all chat to each other over the wire, when we were out the back. We all accepted each other just as we are. But now things have changed drastically for me. Instead of just the normal ins and outs people do - hanging out the washing, tending to their flowers, veggies, mowing their lawns, allowing thier children to paly in the back - there's a business going on. There's a lot more activity in that yard. There are high vehicles - hi-ace vans, couriers, taxis. SUV's etc, pulling right up to where they are facing right nito my two back rooms. I don't know these people from Adam! I have to duck back and forth around the house, so as not be seen by these people. I did consider raising the wall, and my neighbour was out "hot-foot" to forbid me, on the grounds that it would restrict her light. That is a good number of years ago.Regarding the issue of privacy. There was no boundary wall when you bought it. It's not their fault that you can each see into to each other properties. You've had over 30 years to build a wall of some form of privacy.
That remains to be seen, based on legal advice.Drawings won have to be amended.
They didn't offer me compensation re the boundary. All she did was sneer, when the boundary was mentioned. Her answer was "Who cares about a boundary?" By that stage the conversation had gone on for about an hour, without getting anywhere, so I ended it at that stage, having reached no solution. What she offered to pay for, as I mentioned, was the transfer of my phone from the bedroom I can't sleep in to the the one I'm now using. I didn't need her to do that, as I didn't need my phone moved. Besides, that was not the problem! When I mentioned what the estate agent had told me re the unsaleabiltiy of my house, due to the presence of the business next door, she offered to employ her own valuer to come in and value my place. Over my dead body! I am not about to allow any agent of hers onto my property unless it's under a court order! At one stage she blurted out "What DO you want"" but that was after she had heard all I had to say and was in denial of every point I had made. That does not sound like she was offering me compensation! As I say, I ended the conversation, as I saw there was no point in continuing it at that time. I was no way near that stage at the time. I had not initiated the conversation with her. It was she who had approached me, based on the word of a neighbour. Basically the whole thing was blown into the open prematurely, which is regrettable, but can't be helped now.Jeered?
They offer you compensation for overstepping the boundary?
Was the amount not adequate?
In the meantime, either she, or her son, could have made some approach to me re attempting to come to some solution - but that has not happened. The son continues on as before, as if nothing has happened.
Bingo! And while they are knocking down the garage, they can put the boundary back where it was! All the garage consists of is a few cement blocks, and corrugated roof! :pac:Or do you jut want them to knock the garage.
And - one last quote!
There are many separate issues here. I am exploring them from every point of view in order to achieve clarity - before taking further action.Again this is a separate issue to overstepping the boundary.
Thank you, Mellor! I would not like to be at the opposite side from you in court - but I can say you have helped me by bringing up some points that might have seemed a bit awkward at first! Again - thanks!0 -
Eyepatch, I think in terms of the boundary issue, the time elapsed will prove too long. There is no real mechanism to deal with boundary disputes in this country, and more often than not, in the absence of agreement between the parties, it will come down to a judge to decide. In these cases, the judges are always cogniscent of the fact that the parties involved will still have to live next door to each other after the dispute is 'resolved', and in that regard will try to ensure that there is no real 'winner', often using costs as the counterbalance to a favourable finding. They will also tend to be very practical in their reasoning .... How long has the fence been in this position ? How soon after it was moved did you question it ? How much of a discrepancy is involved ? In each of these instances, your answer will make you appear to be unreasonable - 30 years, a little under 30 years and eight inches. Bear in mind that the time you will get to outline your case will be quite short, as no one will want to drag this out in to a protracted legal battle (not even the solicitors, who to be fair, in my experience know the difficulties associated with this type of case only too well)
If you wish to outline your grievance to the Planning Authority, they will certainly follow up on it, but the difficutly you will have here is that it will be up to them to decide whether or not the use of the Garage is 'incidental to the residential amenity of the dwelling' i.e ..... a hobby as your neighbour claims. I think you need to play it very carefully, as that decision could possibly go either way. Negotiation with them is probably your best bet. You need to work out what exactly it is that you want (a judge would ask the same thing anyway) and put it to them that if they carry out these measures you will be happy and not report to the council - the 'back off' approach. You also need to give them a timeline. However, above all you need to realise that there is a possibility that neither approach will work, and that the situation may remain almost unchanged, leaving you open to the jeering and ridicule you've experienced before.
With regard to the 'drawings' you mention, the only drawing which has any bearing on title is the Land Registry (now Property Registration Authority) Map or a map from the Registry of Deeds. These are however deemed to be index maps, and identify properties rather than boundaries. Even at that, the tolerance on a map of the largest scale is about 250mm or 10'', so even if the map were to be used as the basis for your case, there is the possibility that this can be used as a counter argument. I know this may all be disheartening for you, but better to be prepared before you make a move in the first place.
Supertech, many thanks for your very well-thought-out reply. There is a lot of very useful information there, which will help me look further into these issues. I am not quoting individual parts of your reply, because everything you have said is so clear, and I don't have anything to argue with.
To everybody, who have posted: This has been a very long thread. I think your post, Supertech has brought the discussion to an end! That is for the moment, anyway, unless I have some progress to relate at a future time.
Once again, I must thank Everybody, for their contributions. You all certainly have helped me get out of the "thinking-in-circles" that I have been doing. It's a question now, of finding the right legal advisers and moving from there. I don't want to go to court and I believe that, with a very experienced and skilled mediator, some satisfactory solutions could be reached. Please wish me luck!
End of discussion - for now!
If you have something else to say, please feel free to PM me!
Cheers, All! Have a lovely day!0 -
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Eyepatch please dont take any comments here personally. You posted your query here for people to give their opinions and if the given opinions are not to your liking then you just have to move on to the next comment or opinion.
People here are actually trying to help you by sometimes stating the obvious. It may not be what you want to hear but as i said dont take it personally.
Cheers.
What's the matter with you, muffler? Haven't you read my replies? Where have I ever said I did not like anybody's reply? Where have I ever said that people were not helping me?
To quote myself:
Have I not made myself clear? I have, for my part, put and end to the discussion, because I believe all good threads come to a climax and there is a sense of completion. After that in my experience, it's all downhill from there. It's becomes like "flogging a dead horse". I don't think we need to do that, do we?Once again, I must thank Everybody, for their contributions. You all certainly have helped me get out of the "thinking-in-circles" that I have been doing. It's a question now, of finding the right legal advisers and moving from there. I don't want to go to court and I believe that, with a very experienced and skilled mediator, some satisfactory solutions could be reached. Please wish me luck!
End of discussion - for now!
If you have something else to say, please feel free to PM me!
Everybody, IMO, has been very nice, and nobody has said anything that I have taken personally. Believe me! Thank you, muffler, for your contributions too. I know you mean to be helpful too! 0 -
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Referring to your previous post, muffler, I think it is plain what I said.Im a tad confused here. In one post you are saying that she was offering compensation, then you are saying that it was your interpretation and finally you state that there was no offer of compensation.
I have highlighted a couple of the points in your posts and I'm just trying to get my head round them as they appear to be contradictory.
The only money the woman ever offered was to pay for the transfer my phone from one bedroom to another 9which was never an issue) - and to employ her agent to value my property (which I would not consider either).
When she said "What DO you want?", I assume, based on the context of the conversion, that she meant money. I did not reply to that - as this is not about money. It was at that point I bowed out of the conversation, as it was obvious to me it was going nowhere.
Hope this clarifies things for you, muffler?
To finally quote you, muffler:Oh most certainly and I can see with that attitude why you have problems.
By the way you dont get to decide when a thread here is finished. I do.
See what I meant when I suggested, that after a certain stage, threads start to go downhill?
I am the OP. I have put my questions. I received answers and the points were debated entirely to my satisfaction. I am very grateful to everybody who has participated. For me it is complete. I am bowing out now. If others want to continue this thread, they are perfectly at liberty to do so, but as for me, I am out!
I have asked already, if anyone else has anything to say to me, please feel free to PM me. Far as I'm concerned, this discussion is finished - for now!
Many thanks to All! Have a good night! 0
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