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Boundary moved - Implications

  • 19-06-2012 12:08pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭


    Many years ago, my neighbour, who owns the party wall to our houses. moved it 8 inches into my property and built a lean-to garage onto it. My deeds drawings now do not represent the true plan re my property.

    In fact the neighbour told me, at the time, that they were "correcting the boundary" and I was naive enough to believe them! :eek:

    I now want to rectify this situation and get my boundary set back as it was.

    If I want to sell my house, what implications does this situation have re the sale?

    Any help or suggestions appreciated.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Eyepatch wrote: »
    Many years ago, my neighbour, who owns the party wall to our houses. moved it 8 inches into my property and built a lean-to garage onto it. My deeds drawings now do not represent the true plan re my property.

    In fact the neighbour told me, at the time, that they were "correcting the boundary" and I was naive enough to believe them! :eek:

    I now want to rectify this situation and get my boundary set back as it was.

    If I want to sell my house, what implications does this situation have re the sale?

    Any help or suggestions appreciated.

    Google "Adverse Posession", if he did it more than 12 years ago, it might be his land now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Thank you, Gerard!
    if he did it more than 12 years ago, it might be his land now.

    That's what I'm afraid of! :eek:

    Before selling, would the plans for deeds have to be redrawn?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Thanks for that advice! I Googled "Adverse Possession" It was very helpful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 richban


    Eyepatch -

    More details please - Did your neighbour maybe demolish an existing wall/fence then build a new re-located wall/fence in front of a new garage wall? - any chance of a pic


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    richban wrote: »
    Eyepatch -

    More details please - Did your neighbour maybe demolish an existing wall/fence then build a new re-located wall/fence in front of a new garage wall? - any chance of a pic

    Thank you for your interest, richban.

    The original boundary was marked by a wire stretching between two concrete posts. That wire stretched from a post which was at the end of a short wall, which divided the two houses, down to a garage, which was in the original plans at the bottom of the garden. It clearly states in the drawing, which came with my deeds, that the boundary on my side, juts up the the end wall of the original garage. That original garage is still there, so there would be no question as to where the boundary stops on my side. (The boundary actually belongs to the neighbours.) The concrete post nearest to the houses, from which the wire was strung still, still exists, though it is now part of the wall they built going down from it to replace the wire. You can still see the holes in that post where the wires were strung.

    They decided they needed a 2nd garage, for the son to indulge his car repairing "hobby". One day, when I got home from work, they had removed the wire at the bottom end and swung it at the far end about 8 inches into my property. They already had a wall constructed in place of the wire up to a height of about 2 and a half foot. Following on to that wall they were in the process of constructing the new garage, but the new garage jutted 8 and 3-quarter ins. into my garden at the bottom end. The new garage is a lean-to onto that wall opening up towards the back of my house and is between the houses and the original garage, which is still there. The new garage juts about 8 ins, further into my garden than the original garage.

    I dare not put a pic, because these people are very street-wise and could possible be reading this!

    They told me they were in the process of "correcting the boundary". That is etched in my memory! I was so naive at that time, and being new to the area, I never doubted for a minute but that they were telling the truth.

    These neighbours were there at the building of the houses, and the father had a lot of local lore about the area and the building of our two house, which he used to reminiscence about often. I had no reason to distrust anything they would have told me at that time, as they had always been very helpful and appeared very upstanding in every way. As my deeds were with my mortgage provider, I had no way of checking that at the time - and frankly, it never crossed my mind to check it.

    I have lived to regret sorely that omission now. Am wondering what hope I have of getting things set back as they were!

    The results for me are catastrophic -
    * a full-blown car repair business, though not full-time, as the son has another (full-time) job. This in full view of the back of my house!
    * a garage which looks into my kitchen / breakfast-room,
    * the nuisance that goes with a garage operating next door, at the back of my house,
    * large high vehicles pulling in, such as courier vans, taxis etc where the drivers, strangers to me, can see straight into the back of my house.

    The list goes on!

    The results of all of this are

    * devaluation of my property, apart from loss of land

    * being told by a Auctioneer that they would not take on such a house as mine, in the present economic climate, because of this situation.

    * original plan tampered with - deeds may have to be adjusted! :eek:

    * nuisance of noises associated with a repair service from the tools used, phone-calls coming in in the yard and talking on the phone, dealing with people etc.

    * invasion of my privacy - strangers driving in and being able to see into my back windows. Right now, I want to upgrade my kitchen / breakfast-room by opening it up a bit, which would leave me with even less privacy.

    * Have had to move out of my bedroom, which was at the back, because of the anxiety I experienced re what noise I was going to awaken to the next morning - so am not having the full benefit of all the rooms in my house. (Sometimes I like to sleep in until about ten a.m. and that is not possible in that room).

    I have consulted a solicitor, but he does not seem to have much stomach for getting involved. Have been advised to seek a second opinion!

    All the best - and thanks for your interest!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    OP, what is key here is when the boundary was changed...whether you agreed to it is another issue. So, when was the boundary moved?!

    Are you sure the boundary is not now in the correct position?? Boundary disputes do go legal and i think you may need the services of professional such as a land/building surveyor - this is also to get either the right advice or possibly a map for the PRAI which is land registry compliant for any possible deed of rectification drawn up by your solicitor.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    There is also the 'unauthorised' change of use from domestic garage to commercial garage from a planning point of view, not to mention fire safety. For any more relevant advice we do need to know:

    1. When the fence was changed?
    2. When the garage use was changed from domestic to commercial?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    astrofluff wrote: »
    OP, what is key here is when the boundary was changed...whether you agreed to it is another issue. So, when was the boundary moved?!

    Are you sure the boundary is not now in the correct position?? Boundary disputes do go legal and i think you may need the services of professional such as a land/building surveyor - this is also to get either the right advice or possibly a map for the PRAI which is land registry compliant for any possible deed of rectification drawn up by your solicitor.

    Thank you, Astrofluff!

    Yes, unfortunately, it could be up to 30 years ago that the boundary was changed.

    I suppose it could be assumed I agreed because i did not abject at the time. As I have explained, I completely believed them when they said they were "correcting the boundary". It never crossed my mind at the time that they could be lying to me. As my deeds were with the mortgage provider and they had been present at the building of these houses, I thought they were privy to knowledge that I didn't have access to. As I say, this man, the father, who is now in a "home", used to spend hours recalling local lore and talking about it, so he seemed to be a fund of knowledge about everything to do with the local area, having lived there all his life. I was taken in by that. I am hoping it may be significant that that change of this boundary was based on a lie. Again proving that that was said might be difficult!

    I am certain the boundary is now not in the correct place. It is 100% clear in the drawings, which I have only seen for the first time recently - and there is firm evidence remaining.

    Sorry - I don't know what PRAI stands for.

    Am consulting with a solicitor, but think I may need to look for 2nd opinion, as my present solicitor does not seem particularly interested in teasing this out.

    Many thanks for your interest and helpful reply!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    There is also the 'unauthorised' change of use from domestic garage to commercial garage from a planning point of view, not to mention fire safety. For any more relevant advice we do need to know:

    1. When the fence was changed?
    2. When the garage use was changed from domestic to commercial?

    Fence change could be up to 30 years ago. Have no record of date.

    Again the garage gradually grew by introducing more and more tools. Initially it was a hobby, using just basic wrenches. then pneumatic tools, drills etc. were introduced. Also a hoist that sits flat on the ground, i.e. there is no hole dug into the ground under the hoist. The man has had an interest in reparing cars since he was 13 and he is now in his fifties. There are no definite times and dates.

    Even still, his mother, who is the sole resident in the house, would argue it's a hobby. Though she did offer me money, if I would back off!!! Considering she's in receipt of a state pension, I don't know where the money was supposed to come from!

    Many thanks, Poor Uncle Tom, for your interest and helpful reply.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Duncan31


    The length of time that has passed is very significant imo.
    The fact that it is so long like this would mean that he can most likely claim ownership of the additional area now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Duncan31 wrote: »
    The length of time that has passed is very significant imo.
    The fact that it is so long like this would mean that he can most likely claim ownership of the additional area now.

    Thank you, Duncan!

    I'm just wondering if there could be any way I could use pressure on him on moral grounds, to give back what was wrongfully taken in the first place. So much has resulted from this land being taken i.e the garage that' driving me crazy in so many ways. The way the boundary is now, impinges on the shape of my garden in a detrimental way, making it a more awkward, unattractive shape. Besides, if you saw the plans, their site is a least four times the size of mine. Talk about greediness!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Unfortunately, the long time-frame involved doesn't work in your favour, OP. This reminds me of two things I've been told. One was from a retired barrister who said to avoid litigation if at all possible - that the hassle and stress of going through it is often not worth it in the end. The other thing was from a surveyer who said that in Ireland the average boundary dispute is 10cm, lasts a year and a half in court, and costs €36,000.

    Ask yourself if it's worth it, OP. If you think it is, then having a sympathic solicitor would be essential. Judging from the attitude of the people that you've described, they're not likely to be swayed by moral arguments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Aard wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the long time-frame involved doesn't work in your favour, OP. This reminds me of two things I've been told. One was from a retired barrister who said to avoid litigation if at all possible - that the hassle and stress of going through it is often not worth it in the end. The other thing was from a surveyer who said that in Ireland the average boundary dispute is 10cm, lasts a year and a half in court, and costs €36,000.

    Ask yourself if it's worth it, OP. If you think it is, then having a sympathetic solicitor would be essential. Judging from the attitude of the people that you've described, they're not likely to be swayed by moral arguments.


    Thank you, Aard, for your helpful comments. Those statistics are interesting.

    I would hope that this issue could be solved through mediation. That would need a very good solicitor, who has specialized in this type of work.

    Already I have mentioned that, when it came up between me and the owner of the house, all she did was jeer and sneer and talk about herself. She had no empathy whatsoever as to what I was going through. It was all about HER! She was frightened, behind it all, because she did offer "money"! It would take an awful lot of money to "buy" my silence! :eek:

    It's about my "taking back my power"! I just don't want to let them away with they have done and continue to do, by saying nothing.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Why dont you build a wall between yourself and the neighbour? That would keep people from looking in, and keep you from seeing the goings-on in the neighbours garage. It would cost waaaaaaaaaayy less than a legal persuit. This time, you take 8 inches of their ground!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭rayjdav


    newmug wrote: »
    Why dont you build a wall between yourself and the neighbour? That would keep people from looking in, and keep you from seeing the goings-on in the neighbours garage. It would cost waaaaaaaaaayy less than a legal persuit. This time, you take 8 inches of their ground!

    Old head on, this solves nothing, only give more money and work to solicitors down the line.....

    IMO it (boundary) has, at this stage, nothing to do with Planning and is a job for legals but, depending on the commercial use of the shed, this is an issue that, as PUT has pointed out, is an ongoing issue for, at the very least, the Chief Fire Officer.
    Council Rates department might be interested too???????

    Bar that, we are not in the business of "Morals" in this forum, just plain good old fashioned, black and white, legislation....:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    newmug wrote: »
    Why dont you build a wall between yourself and the neighbour? That would keep people from looking in, and keep you from seeing the goings-on in the neighbours garage. It would cost waaaaaaaaaayy less than a legal persuit. This time, you take 8 inches of their ground!


    LOL!, newmug! Easier said than done! There already is a a five and half foot wall there and his garage is a lean-to against the part that juts eight inches into my garden!

    It was suggested I put a trellis up to block out the view - but that would be a last resort, as I have issues with the noise and sounds of various goings on wafting over from that side. If I were to put up a trellis, that would be saying to them "Carry on as you please!" I'm not ready for that yet!

    Also, there is the question of electric wires that they have running down from the house to the lean-to just above the wall. Before putting up trellis, there would the health and safety issue to be considered.

    If I tried, I couldn't make up this story!

    Thanks newmug, for your interesting suggestion. ;):D


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 280 ✭✭engineermike


    Aard wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the long time-frame involved doesn't work in your favour, OP. This reminds me of two things I've been told. One was from a retired barrister who said to avoid litigation if at all possible - that the hassle and stress of going through it is often not worth it in the end. The other thing was from a surveyer who said that in Ireland the average boundary dispute is 10cm, lasts a year and a half in court, and costs €36,000.

    Ask yourself if it's worth it, OP. If you think it is, then having a sympathic solicitor would be essential. Judging from the attitude of the people that you've described, they're not likely to be swayed by moral arguments.

    Hi OP,
    What you have is a long winding costly road - with no surety of winning due to the time lapsed and the fact the relocation of the boundary was discussed with you at the time the neighbor was doing the work.
    The ancillary effects which you mentioned all though difficult to bear - are muddy'd by the fact the relocation of the boundary was accepted in principal by you at the time.
    Yes you would need a site survey by an engineer / surveyor with adequate PI and planning law experience in the first instance, secondly very deep pockets to pursue the legal avenue and enter into the process fully in the knowledge that you may lose.
    The only aid to your case is if the substantial modifications undertaken by the neighbor have had an adverse affect (which must be proven with recorded damage) - to services or structures upon your property.

    Personally having dealt with a number of these type of disputes -
    ( I actually remember one where the boundary dispute was resolved and a wall rebuilt in place of the old one - however the neighbor having lost the dispute - would not allow access to his property to re build the wall, which was at the side of the extension on my clients property, - suspending the block layers was the only way to rebuild - lucky the foundations of the old wall were still in place)
    My advice would be to build / or carry out your own property - rear extension modifications with views and ope's away from the offending neighbor's wall
    - take the cost from them to have the boundary redrawn on planning doc's, and plant certain trees to obscure the view ?
    Basically I'd be looking for out of the box solutions to the problem.
    Regards,
    Mike F:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Hi OP,
    What you have is a long winding costly road - with no surety of winning due to the time lapsed and the fact the relocation of the boundary was discussed with you at the time the neighbor was doing the work.
    The ancillary effects which you mentioned all though difficult to bear - are muddy'd by the fact the relocation of the boundary was accepted in principal by you at the time.
    Yes you would need a site survey by an engineer / surveyor with adequate PI and planning law experience in the first instance, secondly very deep pockets to pursue the legal avenue and enter into the process fully in the knowledge that you may lose.
    The only aid to your case is if the substantial modifications undertaken by the neighbor have had an adverse affect (which must be proven with recorded damage) - to services or structures upon your property.

    Personally having dealt with a number of these type of disputes -
    ( I actually remember one where the boundary dispute was resolved and a wall rebuilt in place of the old one - however the neighbor having lost the dispute - would not allow access to his property to re build the wall, which was at the side of the extension on my clients property, - suspending the block layers was the only way to rebuild - lucky the foundations of the old wall were still in place)
    My advice would be to build / or carry out your own property - rear extension modifications with views and ope's away from the offending neighbor's wall
    - take the cost from them to have the boundary redrawn on planning doc's, and plant certain trees to obscure the view ?
    Basically I'd be looking for out of the box solutions to the problem.
    Regards,
    Mike F:)

    Mike, I resonate with just about everything you say here! I am painfully aware, that I need to think outside of the box in order to get anywhere with this. Rather, I need very good advice from someone who can help me with it - a person who is prepared to think outside the box on my behalf!
    My advice would be to build / or carry out your own property - rear extension modifications with views and ope's away from the offending neighbor's wall
    I don't have any extensions ATM and their lean-to garage is at the bottom end of my garden. Certainly, it is a good suggestion to put some kind of structure that would obscure the view of their garage, which opens towards my kitchen / breakfast room. Again I'd have to think, what would use that structure for. A sun-room? a potting shed? I think not, because I would not want to be partaking of any activity in such close proximity to the sounds of what's going on there. The only use I would find for a structure there would be a storage shed, which would take a lot from my garden, which ATM has lawn and a herbaceous border. Besides. I already have a tool shed at the end of my garden where there is a veggie plot.

    I am thinking my strongest points are the negative results arising form this boundary change - garage activity:

    * invasion of my privacy by strangers driving in in high vehicles such as Hi-Ace vans, couriers, taxis etc.

    * the fact I've had to move out of my bedroom due to nuisance noises, thus I do not have the full use of my house, which I have paid for.

    * my intention to update my kitchen / breakfast room, which will not be possible due to the privacy issue mentioned above, which would even be increased by opening up these rooms.

    I believe there is a cumulative issue here, that could be considered, and everything taken into account.
    The only aid to your case is if the substantial modifications undertaken by the neighbor have had an adverse affect (which must be proven with recorded damage) - to services or structures upon your property.
    The fact that an auctioneer has told me, off the cuff, that they would find it impossible to sell my house, and therefore would not take it on, due to the presence of that business, seems like a good point too. If I could get an auctioneer to repeat this, it possibly might be a way to go!

    In the original leases under which these houses were sold initially, it clearly states that there should be no businesses set up in the back yards, such as garages, as this is a residential area. That was back in the 60's/70's. That lease stood when I bought my house. I think, though, that the neighbours could have bought out the lease, and therefore wouldn't be bound by it. Smart!
    Yes you would need a site survey by an engineer / surveyor with adequate PI and planning law experience in the first instance,

    I agree. I think that will be my next move.

    Re "deep pockets" - there's very few people can claim to have them! :rolleyes: :D

    I think, no matter what I do, it's going to cost some money.
    take the cost from them to have the boundary redrawn on planning doc's

    Agree! I think they should be made to pay something, to wipe the smirks off their faces!



    Thanks again, engineermike! The points you made are very valid and have helped me further tease out this question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    rayjdav wrote: »
    Old head on, this solves nothing, only give more money and work to solicitors down the line.....

    IMO it (boundary) has, at this stage, nothing to do with Planning and is a job for legals but, depending on the commercial use of the shed, this is an issue that, as PUT has pointed out, is an ongoing issue for, at the very least, the Chief Fire Officer.
    Council Rates department might be interested too???????

    Bar that, we are not in the business of "Morals" in this forum, just plain good old fashioned, black and white, legislation....:D

    Rayjdav, Sorry! I think our posts must have crossed and I'm only seeing your reply to Newmug now! I think Newmug was a bit tongue-in-cheek joking when he/she suggested I build another wall eight inches into the neighbour's property. Nevertheless, I'm glad of everybody's comments.

    I agree with you, that it is purely a case of "legislation", as I don't think, there would be a lot of point in appealing to these people' sense of morality. Where legislation is concerned, I may be on some shaky ground, considering so much time has passed. Nevertheless, I intend to leave no stone unturned to find a way of resolving this - to my satisfaction. ;)

    Yes, there probably is a case there for the Chief fire officer! They have electric wires (several) going from their house to their shed /garage just above the boundary wall and connecting to the lean-to just about 18 above the wall at the bottom end. I have mentioned, already, that that would definitely be an issue, were I to consider putting up a trellis. There actually are trees from my garden coming in contact with these wires at this very moment. I intend getting advice, first of all, from my electrician, when he next comes by to finish a job he has started.

    Thank you, Rayjdav, for these very good points. Every bit helps! ;):D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,647 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I wouldn't be arguing over 8 inches of - you've survived it for 30 years.

    Notably, they only have adverse possession of what is on their side of the wall - the cannot occupy the wall, so they can't gain adverse possession.

    I would seriously talk to a solicitor about getting an agreed settlement - that they moderate the garage activity and pay for raising the wall. I'm not certain, but on a rear wall, you don't need planning permission once you don't raise it above 2 metres (about 6 foot 7). This might reduce the noise and intrusion somewhat. Of course, planning permission could be sought to raise the wall.

    A noise / nuisance complaint is probably your strongest avenue of attack, however that you have lived with it may go against you.
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    Though she did offer me money, if I would back off!!!

    Back off about what?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭2rkehij30qtza5


    Two things strike me about this. Firstly your neighbour may have adverse possession if 12+ years of occupancy on said land went unchallenged by you.
    Secondly, the noise issue...if you have 'put up' with it for a significant length of time I can't see any district court going in your favour all of a sudden. However, if the noise increases or changes so as to cause you not to be able to enjoy your own property, the yes, you could pursue this line. But it does depend on whether you have 'put up' with this for a length of time already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Victor wrote: »
    Back off about what?

    I'm surprised you ask this question, Victor.

    TBH, she did not use these words. That is my assumption as to the reason. I'm also presuming she was offering to compensate me.

    She was very concerned that I was about to take some action, and obviously, she was attempting to "buy" me in some way, so that I would not proceed.

    She actually made several offers to pay for different things, such as have my phone moved from the back bedroom to the room I'm in now - which I refused.

    She also offered to pay for a valuer/auctioneer to come and value my house. Well, any auctioneer, will come and do that for free. I did not take up that offer.

    Then she asked - "What do you want? i.e "name the sum!" (my interpretation) I had already described the problems in detail, and she was in denial of just about all of them, insisting only on drawing attention to herself and her needs. All she was prepared to do was sneer. I had already told her what I needed rectified and she did not accept any of it. I presume she thought that if she offered me money, I would forget about my grievances.

    No amount of money is going to solve this problem as it stands ATM. Unless, she intends to buy me another house that I can move into to get away from all of this! [Joking!] Besides - she has no money!

    No amount of money can buy Peace!

    Hope that answers your question, Victor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Victor wrote: »
    I wouldn't be arguing over 8 inches of - you've survived it for 30 years.

    Notably, they only have adverse possession of what is on their side of the wall - the cannot occupy the wall, so they can't gain adverse possession.

    I would seriously talk to a solicitor about getting an agreed settlement - that they moderate the garage activity and pay for raising the wall. I'm not certain, but on a rear wall, you don't need planning permission once you don't raise it above 2 metres (about 6 foot 7). This might reduce the noise and intrusion somewhat. Of course, planning permission could be sought to raise the wall.

    A noise / nuisance complaint is probably your strongest avenue of attack, however that you have lived with it may go against you.



    Back off about what?

    I missed the top part of your post, Victor. Maybe you were in the process of editing it, or something, while I was in the middle of replying to your question, "Back off about what?"
    I wouldn't be arguing over 8 inches of - you've survived it for 30 years.
    It's that 8" that has enabled them to build the lean-to garage in the way they did. I have lived with it for a long time - and been very irritated by it for that length of time. Meanwhile, I've had other concerns apart from all of that, mainly to do with health, which took my energy and attention - so I have not been able to focus on this problem until now. Also the fact that the original drawings now are not accurate and will have to be amended if I am to consider selling.
    I would seriously talk to a solicitor about getting an agreed settlement - that they moderate the garage activity and pay for raising the wall.
    I'm inclined to think this is the way to go, Victor. What you say makes sense.

    The fact that they just jeered and ridiculed at my complaints make s me all the more determined to make them face up to what they have done and are doing.

    Someone suggested to me that, when the present owner passes on, they may want to sell that house, and divide the proceeds among the next of kin. If there were to be a legal issue, they might be the ones to lose out due to that, so it may not be in their interests to get caught up in a legal dispute. [I'm just surmising about a different scenario.] Also, I think I would be well-advised to get that all sorted before the present owner would pass on - assuming I don't go first! :eek:.

    Many thanks, Victor, for your well-thought-out reply. The points you have made are very relevant, IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Two things strike me about this. Firstly your neighbour may have adverse possession if 12+ years of occupancy on said land went unchallenged by you.
    Secondly, the noise issue...if you have 'put up' with it for a significant length of time I can't see any district court going in your favour all of a sudden. However, if the noise increases or changes so as to cause you not to be able to enjoy your own property, the yes, you could pursue this line. But it does depend on whether you have 'put up' with this for a length of time already.

    You make very valid points, IMO, Bishop Spicy Revenge! The noise issue has increased gradually over the years, due to this person investing in pneumatic tools in place of the old-fashioned wrenches he used at the beginning. He also has things that trundle across the yard. There is talk on mobiles, negotiating with customers, engines running etc, etc- all very irritating, when the sounds are coming into my kitchen, from the back. It's not a question of decibels of noise, but the irritation quality of hearing nuts being loosened with these electric tools. It's not a lot different to having the road being dug up outside of your house. These people would be the first to complain about noise, if there was work being done on the road. but they don't hear any noise when it is being made by themselves.

    Yes, it would be a point I would hope to use, the fact that all of this has been on the increase over the years. He could have six cars clogging up in his back yard waiting for servicing in a day. That's a far cry from just messing around with one car, as a hobby. Just looking out and seeing all those cars, makes my blood boil!

    Many thanks, Bishop Spicy Revenge, for taking the time and thought to reply. Your input is much appreciated!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,232 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Eyepatch wrote: »
    It's that 8" that has enabled them to build the lean-to garage in the way they did. I have lived with it for a long time - and been very irritated by it for that length of time.
    They could of built the garage without the 8". Especially because they have such a big site. So your association of the car repair and the boundary is baseless imo.
    Also the fact that the original drawings now are not accurate and will have to be amended if I am to consider selling.
    Drawings won have to be amended.
    The fact that they just jeered and ridiculed at my complaints make s me all the more determined to make them face up to what they have done and are doing.
    Jeered?
    They offer you compensation for overstepping the boundary?
    Was the amount not adequate? Or do you jut want them to knock the garage.

    If the car repair has been operating 30 years there may be nothing you can do at this stage.

    Regarding the issue of privacy. There was no boundary wall when you bought it. It's not their fault that you can each see into to each other properties. You've had over 30 years to build a wall of some form of privacy. Again this is a separate issue to overstepping the boundary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    Eyepatch, I think in terms of the boundary issue, the time elapsed will prove too long. There is no real mechanism to deal with boundary disputes in this country, and more often than not, in the absence of agreement between the parties, it will come down to a judge to decide. In these cases, the judges are always cogniscent of the fact that the parties involved will still have to live next door to each other after the dispute is 'resolved', and in that regard will try to ensure that there is no real 'winner', often using costs as the counterbalance to a favourable finding. They will also tend to be very practical in their reasoning .... How long has the fence been in this position ? How soon after it was moved did you question it ? How much of a discrepancy is involved ? In each of these instances, your answer will make you appear to be unreasonable - 30 years, a little under 30 years and eight inches. Bear in mind that the time you will get to outline your case will be quite short, as no one will want to drag this out in to a protracted legal battle (not even the solicitors, who to be fair, in my experience know the difficulties associated with this type of case only too well)

    If you wish to outline your grievance to the Planning Authority, they will certainly follow up on it, but the difficutly you will have here is that it will be up to them to decide whether or not the use of the Garage is 'incidental to the residential amenity of the dwelling' i.e ..... a hobby as your neighbour claims. I think you need to play it very carefully, as that decision could possibly go either way. Negotiation with them is probably your best bet. You need to work out what exactly it is that you want (a judge would ask the same thing anyway) and put it to them that if they carry out these measures you will be happy and not report to the council - the 'back off' approach. You also need to give them a timeline. However, above all you need to realise that there is a possibility that neither approach will work, and that the situation may remain almost unchanged, leaving you open to the jeering and ridicule you've experienced before.

    With regard to the 'drawings' you mention, the only drawing which has any bearing on title is the Land Registry (now Property Registration Authority) Map or a map from the Registry of Deeds. These are however deemed to be index maps, and identify properties rather than boundaries. Even at that, the tolerance on a map of the largest scale is about 250mm or 10'', so even if the map were to be used as the basis for your case, there is the possibility that this can be used as a counter argument. I know this may all be disheartening for you, but better to be prepared before you make a move in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Mellor wrote: »
    They could of built the garage without the 8". Especially because they have such a big site. So your association of the car repair and the boundary is baseless imo.

    Drawings won have to be amended.


    Jeered?
    They offer you compensation for overstepping the boundary?
    Was the amount not adequate? Or do you jut want them to knock the garage.

    If the car repair has been operating 30 years there may be nothing you can do at this stage.

    Regarding the issue of privacy. There was no boundary wall when you bought it. It's not their fault that you can each see into to each other properties. You've had over 30 years to build a wall of some form of privacy. Again this is a separate issue to overstepping the boundary.

    Wow! Mellor! Your post sounds like a cross-examination! Nevertheless, I will try to respond to the best of my ability.
    They could of built the garage without the 8". Especially because they have such a big site. So your association of the car repair and the boundary is baseless imo.
    Wrong! The boundary was moved in order to facilitate building this lean-to garage, for the son's "hobby" :eek: They could have built anywhere else, except for the fact there was a small hedge jutting into their garden, that they were not willing to uproot, and that served as a screen to hide a lot of stuff. Also, the hedge meant they would not be able to swing cars around into the lean-to without the extra space gained from moving the shed into my garden.
    If the car repair has been operating 30 years there may be nothing you can do at this stage.
    I'll grant you that point, Mellor. :D At the same time, I am not prepared to just give up and do nothing, if there is even a small chance that some change may be effected, through looking into every detail and exploring every avenue open to me.
    Regarding the issue of privacy. There was no boundary wall when you bought it. It's not their fault that you can each see into to each other properties. You've had over 30 years to build a wall of some form of privacy.
    I accept your point, Mellor! True! Back in the 70's though, when I bought my house, things were a lot different. For a start, there were no walls between any of the neighbours. I have neighbours on three sides of me. We all knew and trusted each other unconditionally. Gradully, people wanted more privacy and started to build walls. I did not satrt any of the walls. Before that, we would all chat to each other over the wire, when we were out the back. We all accepted each other just as we are. But now things have changed drastically for me. Instead of just the normal ins and outs people do - hanging out the washing, tending to their flowers, veggies, mowing their lawns, allowing thier children to paly in the back - there's a business going on. There's a lot more activity in that yard. There are high vehicles - hi-ace vans, couriers, taxis. SUV's etc, pulling right up to where they are facing right nito my two back rooms. I don't know these people from Adam! I have to duck back and forth around the house, so as not be seen by these people. I did consider raising the wall, and my neighbour was out "hot-foot" to forbid me, on the grounds that it would restrict her light. That is a good number of years ago.
    Drawings won have to be amended.
    That remains to be seen, based on legal advice.
    Jeered?
    They offer you compensation for overstepping the boundary?
    Was the amount not adequate?
    They didn't offer me compensation re the boundary. All she did was sneer, when the boundary was mentioned. Her answer was "Who cares about a boundary?" By that stage the conversation had gone on for about an hour, without getting anywhere, so I ended it at that stage, having reached no solution. What she offered to pay for, as I mentioned, was the transfer of my phone from the bedroom I can't sleep in to the the one I'm now using. I didn't need her to do that, as I didn't need my phone moved. Besides, that was not the problem! When I mentioned what the estate agent had told me re the unsaleabiltiy of my house, due to the presence of the business next door, she offered to employ her own valuer to come in and value my place. Over my dead body! I am not about to allow any agent of hers onto my property unless it's under a court order! At one stage she blurted out "What DO you want"" but that was after she had heard all I had to say and was in denial of every point I had made. That does not sound like she was offering me compensation! As I say, I ended the conversation, as I saw there was no point in continuing it at that time. I was no way near that stage at the time. I had not initiated the conversation with her. It was she who had approached me, based on the word of a neighbour. Basically the whole thing was blown into the open prematurely, which is regrettable, but can't be helped now.

    In the meantime, either she, or her son, could have made some approach to me re attempting to come to some solution - but that has not happened. The son continues on as before, as if nothing has happened.
    Or do you jut want them to knock the garage.
    Bingo! And while they are knocking down the garage, they can put the boundary back where it was! All the garage consists of is a few cement blocks, and corrugated roof! :pac:

    And - one last quote!
    Again this is a separate issue to overstepping the boundary.
    There are many separate issues here. I am exploring them from every point of view in order to achieve clarity - before taking further action.

    Thank you, Mellor! I would not like to be at the opposite side from you in court - but I can say you have helped me by bringing up some points that might have seemed a bit awkward at first! Again - thanks!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    Supertech wrote: »
    Eyepatch, I think in terms of the boundary issue, the time elapsed will prove too long. There is no real mechanism to deal with boundary disputes in this country, and more often than not, in the absence of agreement between the parties, it will come down to a judge to decide. In these cases, the judges are always cogniscent of the fact that the parties involved will still have to live next door to each other after the dispute is 'resolved', and in that regard will try to ensure that there is no real 'winner', often using costs as the counterbalance to a favourable finding. They will also tend to be very practical in their reasoning .... How long has the fence been in this position ? How soon after it was moved did you question it ? How much of a discrepancy is involved ? In each of these instances, your answer will make you appear to be unreasonable - 30 years, a little under 30 years and eight inches. Bear in mind that the time you will get to outline your case will be quite short, as no one will want to drag this out in to a protracted legal battle (not even the solicitors, who to be fair, in my experience know the difficulties associated with this type of case only too well)

    If you wish to outline your grievance to the Planning Authority, they will certainly follow up on it, but the difficutly you will have here is that it will be up to them to decide whether or not the use of the Garage is 'incidental to the residential amenity of the dwelling' i.e ..... a hobby as your neighbour claims. I think you need to play it very carefully, as that decision could possibly go either way. Negotiation with them is probably your best bet. You need to work out what exactly it is that you want (a judge would ask the same thing anyway) and put it to them that if they carry out these measures you will be happy and not report to the council - the 'back off' approach. You also need to give them a timeline. However, above all you need to realise that there is a possibility that neither approach will work, and that the situation may remain almost unchanged, leaving you open to the jeering and ridicule you've experienced before.

    With regard to the 'drawings' you mention, the only drawing which has any bearing on title is the Land Registry (now Property Registration Authority) Map or a map from the Registry of Deeds. These are however deemed to be index maps, and identify properties rather than boundaries. Even at that, the tolerance on a map of the largest scale is about 250mm or 10'', so even if the map were to be used as the basis for your case, there is the possibility that this can be used as a counter argument. I know this may all be disheartening for you, but better to be prepared before you make a move in the first place.

    Supertech, many thanks for your very well-thought-out reply. There is a lot of very useful information there, which will help me look further into these issues. I am not quoting individual parts of your reply, because everything you have said is so clear, and I don't have anything to argue with.

    To everybody, who have posted: This has been a very long thread. I think your post, Supertech has brought the discussion to an end! That is for the moment, anyway, unless I have some progress to relate at a future time.

    Once again, I must thank Everybody, for their contributions. You all certainly have helped me get out of the "thinking-in-circles" that I have been doing. ;) It's a question now, of finding the right legal advisers and moving from there. I don't want to go to court and I believe that, with a very experienced and skilled mediator, some satisfactory solutions could be reached. Please wish me luck!

    End of discussion - for now!

    If you have something else to say, please feel free to PM me!

    Cheers, All! Have a lovely day!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,717 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Eyepatch please dont take any comments here personally. You posted your query here for people to give their opinions and if the given opinions are not to your liking then you just have to move on to the next comment or opinion.

    People here are actually trying to help you by sometimes stating the obvious. It may not be what you want to hear but as i said dont take it personally.

    Cheers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,717 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Eyepatch wrote: »
    She was frightened, behind it all, because she did offer "money"! It would take an awful lot of money to "buy" my silence
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    I'm also presuming she was offering to compensate me..................She was very concerned that I was about to take some action, and obviously, she was attempting to "buy" me in some way, so that I would not proceed..........................Then she asked - "What do you want? i.e "name the sum!" (my interpretation)................I presume she thought that if she offered me money, I would forget about my grievances.

    No amount of money
    is going to solve this problem as it stands ATM.

    No amount of money can buy Peace!
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    They didn't offer me compensation re the boundary.................That does not sound like she was offering me compensation!
    Im a tad confused here. In one post you are saying that she was offering compensation, then you are saying that it was your interpretation and finally you state that there was no offer of compensation.

    I have highlighted a couple of the points in your posts and I'm just trying to get my head round them as they appear to be contradictory.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    muffler wrote: »
    Eyepatch please dont take any comments here personally. You posted your query here for people to give their opinions and if the given opinions are not to your liking then you just have to move on to the next comment or opinion.

    People here are actually trying to help you by sometimes stating the obvious. It may not be what you want to hear but as i said dont take it personally.

    Cheers.

    What's the matter with you, muffler? Haven't you read my replies? Where have I ever said I did not like anybody's reply? Where have I ever said that people were not helping me?

    To quote myself:
    Once again, I must thank Everybody, for their contributions. You all certainly have helped me get out of the "thinking-in-circles" that I have been doing. ;) It's a question now, of finding the right legal advisers and moving from there. I don't want to go to court and I believe that, with a very experienced and skilled mediator, some satisfactory solutions could be reached. Please wish me luck!

    End of discussion - for now!

    If you have something else to say, please feel free to PM me!
    Have I not made myself clear? I have, for my part, put and end to the discussion, because I believe all good threads come to a climax and there is a sense of completion. After that in my experience, it's all downhill from there. It's becomes like "flogging a dead horse". I don't think we need to do that, do we?

    Everybody, IMO, has been very nice, and nobody has said anything that I have taken personally. Believe me! Thank you, muffler, for your contributions too. I know you mean to be helpful too! ;):D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,717 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Eyepatch wrote: »
    Where have I ever said I did not like anybody's reply?
    With the following comments
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    I'm surprised you ask this question, Victor.
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    Wow! Mellor! Your post sounds like a cross-examination!
    Eyepatch wrote: »
    I would not like to be at the opposite side from you in court

    Eyepatch wrote: »
    Have I not made myself clear?
    Oh most certainly and I can see with that attitude why you have problems.


    By the way you dont get to decide when a thread here is finished. I do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Eyepatch


    muffler wrote: »
    Im a tad confused here. In one post you are saying that she was offering compensation, then you are saying that it was your interpretation and finally you state that there was no offer of compensation.

    I have highlighted a couple of the points in your posts and I'm just trying to get my head round them as they appear to be contradictory.
    Referring to your previous post, muffler, I think it is plain what I said.

    The only money the woman ever offered was to pay for the transfer my phone from one bedroom to another 9which was never an issue) - and to employ her agent to value my property (which I would not consider either).

    When she said "What DO you want?", I assume, based on the context of the conversion, that she meant money. I did not reply to that - as this is not about money. It was at that point I bowed out of the conversation, as it was obvious to me it was going nowhere.

    Hope this clarifies things for you, muffler?

    To finally quote you, muffler:
    Oh most certainly and I can see with that attitude why you have problems.


    By the way you dont get to decide when a thread here is finished. I do.

    See what I meant when I suggested, that after a certain stage, threads start to go downhill?

    I am the OP. I have put my questions. I received answers and the points were debated entirely to my satisfaction. I am very grateful to everybody who has participated. For me it is complete. I am bowing out now. If others want to continue this thread, they are perfectly at liberty to do so, but as for me, I am out!

    I have asked already, if anyone else has anything to say to me, please feel free to PM me. Far as I'm concerned, this discussion is finished - for now!

    Many thanks to All! Have a good night! ;):D


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