Charlesland service charges and the upcoming property tax

Wineman

I was wondering would the residents of Charlesland have a case for an exemption or reduced tax liability on the upcoming property tax considering we pay annual service charges for the maintenance of the development and the local authority provides no direct services to the estate? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Mr. Incognito

No.

You do not seem to understand the difference between payments to a maintance company and property tax

Huntthe

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No.

You do not seem to understand the difference between payments to a maintance company and property tax

I think perhaps you're the one not seeing the big picture.

I don't live in Charlesland but the property tax is supposed to be 'ring fenced' to finance the local authorities. If people there are already paying a maintenance charge and I understand the Council does not maintain the roads etc in Charlesland than it sounds like grounds for a discussion to me.

pixbyjohn

Wineman wrote: »

I was wondering would the residents of Charlesland have a case for an exemption or reduced tax liability on the upcoming property tax considering we pay annual service charges for the maintenance of the development and the local authority provides no direct services to the estate? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

You could take it up with Simon Harris TD , he is now a resident of Charlesland/Seabourne

MyPerfectCousin

Huntthe wrote: »

I understand the Council does not maintain the roads etc in Charlesland

FWIW there seems to be movement toward the Council taking over the spine road and pavements. This is why the tactile pavement ramps are being installed at the moment -- the guy doing those told me the council won't take charge until the developer installed them. I would imagine there are other snags as well, but it seems the developer is working on them.

However, there will still be a service charge when this happens because the council is not taking charge of anything beyond on the spine road. There's still lots of grass and tarmac to maintain, not to mention common areas of apartment blocks, etc. So I think it's quite likely some if not most Charlesland residents will have to pay both.

Lance Vance

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No.

You do not seem to understand the difference between payments to a maintance company and property tax

The property tax is supposed to fund local services. Residents in Charlesland are already paying for some local services (e.g. street lighting, grass cutting, public liabiltiy insurance, repair of water pipes) through a management fee. In other estates the local authority provides some or all of these services.

For a property tax to be equitable should property owners in an estate which pay for certain services through a management fee be taxed at the same rate as property owners in an estate where the local authority provides those services?

LifeBeginsAt40

Most tenants in apartments pay both, the service charge you pay is for the maintenance of the structure and car parks etc.
You cannot expect the tenant of the top flat to pay for the maintenance of the roof!!!! A service charge attached to the rent is meant to ensure ALL tenants pay an equal amount for the upkeep of the building and any communal gardens and service roads.

The service charge has NOTHING to do with the property tax which if anything like the UK, will supposedly be charged to provide such things as street lights, fire service, ambulances, local road maintenance etc.

Do not get the 2 confused, a home owner has to still maintain his/her own property, just with an apartment you pay a maintenance company to do it on your/the landlords behalf.

Hope that clarifies the situation. Some roads will belong to the council, some will belong to the land owners. Not a simple case of looking at the colour of the tarmac and making a judgement without seeing the detailed plans.

Blandpebbles

pixbyjohn wrote: »

You could take it up with Simon Harris TD , he is now a resident of Charlesland/Seabourne

Not in Crowe Abbey anymore? Expect speed bumps in charlesland soon and no property tax.

Still funny... Wanting to not pay tax because you pay maintenance. I pay 50 euro a year for the residents grass cutting can I get a discount?

Millers02

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Most tenants in apartments pay both, the service charge you pay is for the maintenance of the structure and car parks etc.
You cannot expect the tenant of the top flat to pay for the maintenance of the roof!!!! A service charge attached to the rent is meant to ensure ALL tenants pay an equal amount for the upkeep of the building and any communal gardens and service roads.

The service charge has NOTHING to do with the property tax which if anything like the UK, will supposedly be charged to provide such things as street lights, fire service, ambulances, local road maintenance etc.

Do not get the 2 confused, a home owner has to still maintain his/her own property, just with an apartment you pay a maintenance company to do it on your/the landlords behalf.

Hope that clarifies the situation. Some roads will belong to the council, some will belong to the land owners. Not a simple case of looking at the colour of the tarmac and making a judgement without seeing the detailed plans.

Although I fully accept that the management fee paid by residents in Charlesland is not the same as a property tax, the management fee is paid by every household - not just apartments - and does cover street lighting, maintenance of pavements, public liability insurance, etc. within the estate (as Lance Vance says).

However, it doesn't cover anything outside of the estate - so the property tax paid by people in Charlesland will go towards these things in the greater Greystones area.

matt-dublin

Technically by the planning permission Charlesland is an unfinished housing estate.

Also I refuse to pay, when the water pipe burst last year the council didn't want to know and the crescent had to fork out near 10k to have it repaired so the whole estate could get water

Think we got some back on insurance but not sure.

tp25

Hi,

Are the residents of Charlesland liable to household charge?

Does it matter this is private estate and not run by the council?

Plastik

You are liable.

LifeBeginsAt40

See this thread here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79284417

Blandpebbles

tp25 wrote: »

Hi,

Are the residents of Charlesland liable to household charge?

Does it matter this is private estate and not run by the council?

Keep trying

Annasopra

tp25 wrote: »

Hi,

Are the residents of Charlesland liable to household charge?

Does it matter this is private estate and not run by the council?

Yes
No

Wineman

Below is the email I sent Simon Harris on this issue and his reply...



Hello Simon,

I am a resident of Charlesland Court in Greystones.
In Charlesland we pay an annual maintenance fee to a management company, this covers Roads, sewerage, street lighting, maintenance of common areas and public liability insurance among other things, which effectively makes Charlesland a self sufficient entity which as far as I know receives no services from the local authority.

My point is I believe there is a case to be had for residents who pay maintenance fees to management companies to be exempt or qualify for a discount in the proposed property tax. We currently pay almost €600 p.a on maintenance fees, a property tax heaped on to our current charges would be far too much to bear, not to mention that it puts an unfair burden on those of us whose estates are not serviced by the local authority.

In summary I would like to ask that when the review of the property tax commences that citizens in the circumstances described are treated fairly and have equal status to citizens who do not have the imposition of paying maintenance fees for the upkeep of their areas.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX



Dear XXXXX,

Thank you very much for your email

With regards to the Property Tax which is to be introduced to replace the Household Charge in 2013, I naturally understand your concerns in relation to the service charges you already pay in respect of your property in Charlesland. While the property tax will also cover a wider range of local services, such as the provision of playgrounds, libraries and the upkeep of local common areas as well as those directly in the area of residence, I do take your broader point.

You may be aware that my colleague, Phil Hogan TD, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has established an Expert Inter-Departmental Group to examine the whole issue of the proposed Property Tax, the manner in which it would be levied, how it would be calculated, who should pay etc.

I have already written to the Minister outlining the significant contributions which are made by some households through the imposition of local service charges etc, though I would be happy to forward on your concerns directly to the Minister for the attention of the Expert Group. You might let me know if you would be amenable to this.

Please be assured of my very best efforts on your behalf, XXXXX. I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards,

Simon

Simon Harris TD
Wicklow-East Carlow

dubsgirl

Thanks for posting this wineman
Would you be agreeable to people also sending this letter in their own name?

Wineman

dubsgirl wrote: »

Thanks for posting this wineman
Would you be agreeable to people also sending this letter in their own name?

That would be fine by me. I was planning to get in touch with the Charlesland Residents Associations to see if they could lobby some ministers on our behalf, representation from them might carry a bit more clout than from individuals.

tp25

I'm in if you need my signature on this one

Blandpebbles

You're missing the point, the household charge isn't to pay for amenities and services its to help reduce the deficit... Do I get an exemption if I pay 50 a year for the grass to be cut?

Come on folks, pay the same as everyone else... Even more laughable that you put any faith in Simon 'Where is Greystones?' Harris. P.o.l.i.t.i.c.i.a.n

I might write to Simon and ask can you pay more as Charlesland was built without cause to the impact on amenities and as such it is putting an unfair load on the council, schools, roads etc... I bet I would get the same response from Harris.

matt-dublin

how is charlesland putting an unfair load on the council and road?

we had our own road pretty much built to the M50.

we pay for our own services and amenities.

tp25

brave one, you can pay more if you wish so

Wineman

Blandpebbles wrote: »

You're missing the point, the household charge isn't to pay for amenities and services its to help reduce the deficit... Do I get an exemption if I pay 50 a year for the grass to be cut?

Come on folks, pay the same as everyone else... Even more laughable that you put any faith in Simon 'Where is Greystones?' Harris. P.o.l.i.t.i.c.i.a.n

I might write to Simon and ask can you pay more as Charlesland was built without cause to the impact on amenities and as such it is putting an unfair load on the council, schools, roads etc... I bet I would get the same response from Harris.

Was waiting for you to crawl out of your hole, why don't you go troll somewhere else..

Blandpebbles

Aaah a balanced response there... good stuff... you really showed me.

No trolling simply an opinion you don't agree with the other side of the argument.

But back to the topic at hand, the attempts by some to shirk their fiscal and social responsibilities.

Wouldn't be easier to write to your maintenance company and state you won't pay because you are paying the household charge?

The household charge will be lower, there I saved you some money, glad I could help.

You signed a contract to pay maintenance on a section of land and housing, this in no way contributes to the wider council amenties (supposedly to benefit from the housing charge) and yet you feel you should be exempt. It's this kind of NIMBYism and cute whorism that got the country into the state its in.

'In Charlesland we pay an annual maintenance fee to a management company, this covers Roads, sewerage, street lighting, maintenance of common areas and public liability insurance among other things, which effectively makes Charlesland a self sufficient entity which as far as I know receives no services from the local authority.'

So the sewers dont come from anywhere else, the electricty lines, the roads, they all just magically appear in Charlesland? Do you recycle your waste? Do you issue driving licences? Do you issue road tax, do you manage benefits for the unemployed, police your streets?


You can't have it both ways, don't pay and not be allowed to use anything outside of your self sufficient entity or do pay and be a contributing member of society.

Annasopra

Blandpebbles wrote: »

You signed a contract to pay maintenance on a section of land and housing, this in no way contributes to the wider council amenties (supposedly to benefit from the housing charge) and yet you feel you should be exempt. It's this kind of NIMBYism and cute whorism that got the country into the state its in.

'In Charlesland we pay an annual maintenance fee to a management company, this covers Roads, sewerage, street lighting, maintenance of common areas and public liability insurance among other things, which effectively makes Charlesland a self sufficient entity which as far as I know receives no services from the local authority.'

So the sewers dont come from anywhere else, the electricty lines, the roads, they all just magically appear in Charlesland? Do you issue driving licences?


You can't have it both ways, don't pay and not be allowed to use anything outside of your self sufficient entity or do pay and be a contributing member of society.

I'd actually broadly agree with this. The other point made by Simon Harris is that the funding also goes to other facilities such as playgrounds and libraries.

Wicklow county council also provide lots of other services that Charlesland residents use or can use. Church road didn't just magically resurface itself

dubsgirl

I would read from Winemans letter that he is asking for a discount in this instance not an exemption.

If I pay separately for my street lights in my maintenance fee why should I pay the council for this also??

A discounted fee for those who pay privately for many items that other estates get FOC is completely warranted.

Alun

dubsgirl wrote: »

I would read from Winemans letter that he is asking for a discount in this instance not an exemption.

If I pay separately for my street lights in my maintenance fee why should I pay the council for this also??

A discounted fee for those who pay privately for many items that other estates get FOC is completely warranted.

... and difficult to administer without adding more unnecessary administrative overhead costs. Also, where do you draw the line? Maybe I should get a discount if I didn't have a car and so don't use the roads, or maybe because I have no kids I shouldn't have to pay for schools, etc. etc. etc.

I moved here from the Netherlands, and one of the (many) things I was confused about when I arrived here was that there wasn't any kind of property tax / local rates (or water or sewage charges as well.)

dubsgirl

Alun wrote: »

... and difficult to administer without adding more unnecessary administrative overhead costs. Also, where do you draw the line? Maybe I should get a discount if I didn't have a car and so don't use the roads, or maybe because I have no kids I shouldn't have to pay for schools, etc. etc. etc.

I moved here from the Netherlands, and one of the (many) things I was confused about when I arrived here was that there wasn't any kind of property tax / local rates (or water or sewage charges as well.)

If you don't have a car you don't pay car tax ergo do not pay for roads.

We are talking about people who may be currently paying around 600 - 1200 in private estates...

Another small example when it snowed winter before last Charlesland residents had to pay to get the main roads & main roundabout gritted as Wicklow Co Co would not do it as we are a private estate. This road that leads to the N11 is used by a lot of Greystones not just Charlesland!

Annasopra

dubsgirl wrote: »

If you don't have a car you don't pay car tax ergo do not pay for roads.

We are talking about people who may be currently paying around 600 - 1200 in private estates...

Another small example when it snowed winter before last Charlesland residents had to pay to get the main roads & main roundabout gritted as Wicklow Co Co would not do it as we are a private estate. This road that leads to the N11 is used by a lot of Greystones not just Charlesland!

Ok well then Greystones town council/Wicklow County Council should stop charlesland people using the library and playgrounds and the Shoreline swimming pool if they are going to look for a reduction in council taxes.

dubsgirl

mango salsa wrote: »

Ok well then Greystones town council should stop charlesland people using the library and playgrounds if they are going to look for a reduction in council taxes.

Childish response imo...

I never said Greystones residents shouldn't use the main road - I gave an example of certain items we pay for that the council do not cover...

I for one am not looking to be excluded from any charges relating to public amenities in Greystones.
I am looking for a reduction to take into account of the various items private estates have to pay for directly - I am not sure if people are deliberately misunderstanding this or just looking for a reaction/arguement on this thread?

Plastik

dubsgirl wrote: »

If you don't have a car you don't pay car tax ergo do not pay for roads.

We are talking about people who may be currently paying around 600 - 1200 in private estates...

Another small example when it snowed winter before last Charlesland residents had to pay to get the main roads & main roundabout gritted as Wicklow Co Co would not do it as we are a private estate. This road that leads to the N11 is used by a lot of Greystones not just Charlesland!

Motor Tax has absolutely no connection with funding or paying for road maintenance.

Annasopra

dubsgirl wrote: »

Childish response imo...

I never said Greystones residents shouldn't use the main road - I gave an example of certain items we pay for that the council do not cover...

I just think what is being suggested is not at all feasible and that enefgies would be better spent trying to get Wicklow County Council to take in charge the road and possibly even part of the estate. It's a more realistic, feasible and achievable target. All tds will tell you they take your concerns on board but in reality we have to pay more taxes to fund local government services.

pixbyjohn

Alun wrote: »

... and difficult to administer without adding more unnecessary administrative overhead costs. Also, where do you draw the line? Maybe I should get a discount if I didn't have a car and so don't use the roads, or maybe because I have no kids I shouldn't have to pay for schools, etc. etc. etc.

I moved here from the Netherlands, and one of the (many) things I was confused about when I arrived here was that there wasn't any kind of property tax / local rates (or water or sewage charges as well.)

In years gone by there were water, sewage and bin collection charges, 180 Irish pounds per year. The county councils collected the bins.
Also something that most people forget, In 2 successive years there was an increase in motortax/registration fees of 3% and that 3% was to go directly to the local authority for water charges.
dubsgirl and others are making a good case but unfortunately Phil Hogan won't see it their way.

Annasopra

pixbyjohn wrote: »

unfortunately Phil Hogan won't see it their way.

I think thats the main point really.

dubsgirl

pixbyjohn wrote: »

In years gone by there were water, sewage and bin collection charges, 180 Irish pounds per year. The county councils collected the bins.
Also something that most people forget, In 2 successive years there was an increase in motortax/registration fees of 3% and that 3% was to go directly to the local authority for water charges.
dubsgirl and others are making a good case but unfortunately Phil Hogan won't see it their way.

mango salsa wrote: »

I think thats the main point really.

I agree but the alternative "do nothing" is never an option for me

Blandpebbles

dubsgirl wrote: »

I agree but the alternative "do nothing" is never an option for me

Make the Charlesland road toll paying so you can collect revenue for the up keep of amenities, remove the need for maintenance charges and continue to be a self sufficient entity.

Problem solved

Alun

dubsgirl wrote: »

If you don't have a car you don't pay car tax ergo do not pay for roads.

While motor tax is, supposedly at least, ringfenced for that purpose, it doesn't mean that it is the only source of revenue for that purpose.

Annasopra

dubsgirl wrote: »

I agree but the alternative "do nothing" is never an option for me

Fair enough. I can agree with that.

Alun

pixbyjohn wrote: »

In years gone by there were water, sewage and bin collection charges, 180 Irish pounds per year. The county councils collected the bins.

Yes, there were local domestic rates once that were done away with as yet another populist vote-winning strategy by a desperate government without thinking of the consequences. Should never have been done, and then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Somehow or other the huge gap left by the virtual absence of stamp duty and vat on house purchases has to be filled by something. A property tax is just one possible solution, but one that is at least sustainable unlike the aforementioned.

Sparks115

I think the main point and especially to those from overseas who always had to pay local taxes is that we never had to pay these before and the ONLY reason we are paying them now is to cover the bad debts of the banks, WE SHOULDNT BE PAYING THEM FULL STOP!! I have no intention of paying anymore TAXES or STEALTH TAXES when I am struggling to get by as it is. So to all those wonderful citizens doing their country proud by paying for something that was free and now paying for it due to a Monumental F-UP by our Old government and Banks fait play to you but I was never brought up to be a sucker and I sure aint starting now. I have worked through my school years thru my colleges years and ever since I left college have worked and paid my taxes. Enough is enough and its about time people stood up for themselves and stopped taking this crap and hae other nitwits making us feel like crap for doing so!! I know why dont you law abiding citizens go off and join the Sean Quinn fan club up the road and pat yourselves on the back for saving the country and supporting those poor little rich boys who made the mess in the first place ;-)

Annasopra

Sparks115 wrote: »

I think the main point and especially to those from overseas who always had to pay local taxes is that we never had to pay these before and the ONLY reason we are paying them now is to cover the bad debts of the banks, WE SHOULDNT BE PAYING THEM

We did pay local taxes before - pre 1977 and also during the 1990s

To be honest I am actually delighted local taxation is being bought in because funding of local government is not sustainable. Many governments have pursued a low taxation agenda while trying to also provide services. The reality is that if we want high quality public services then we need to pay more taxes. Digging our heads in the sand and demanding low taxation but decent public services won't work. Any political party that claims it will is doing so on the basis of populist nonsense.

loyatemu

the trend towards private management charges for housing estates was because councils are underfunded and don't want to take on the burden of extra roads to maintain and greens to mow. - if local government is properly funded it might be easier to get them to take new developments in charge (ultimately there should be some requirement on the council to take over developments after they are completed).

(also quite a bit of the Charlesland management fee is for block insurance policies which have nothing to do with local govt.)

matt-dublin

loyatemu wrote: »

the trend towards private management charges for housing estates was because councils are underfunded and don't want to take on the burden of extra roads to maintain and greens to mow. - if local government is properly funded it might be easier to get them to take new developments in charge (ultimately there should be some requirement on the council to take over developments after they are completed).

(also quite a bit of the Charlesland management fee is for block insurance policies which have nothing to do with local govt.)

actually only about 10% is insurance.

about 60% is grounds maintenance, common electricity (street lighting etc)

i believe only the duplexes and apartments pay block insurance, the houses dont.

Alun

Sparks115 wrote: »

I think the main point and especially to those from overseas who always had to pay local taxes is that we never had to pay these before and the ONLY reason we are paying them now is to cover the bad debts of the banks, WE SHOULDNT BE PAYING THEM FULL STOP!!

Well actually you did, maybe before your time, but you did .. back in the 70's I believe. The government at the time got rid of it as a purely populist vote winning move, knowing that the deficit would be covered by the increasing amounts of tax derived from property sales, and we all know what happened to that particular source of income. The extra tax is now needed to cover the shortfall between what we get in in taxation and what we're spending on everyday expenses ... PS salaries, social security etc.

pixbyjohn

Sparks115 wrote: »

I think the main point and especially to those from overseas who always had to pay local taxes is that we never had to pay these before and the ONLY reason we are paying them now is to cover the bad debts of the banks, WE SHOULDNT BE PAYING THEM FULL STOP!! I have no intention of paying anymore TAXES or STEALTH TAXES when I am struggling to get by as it is. So to all those wonderful citizens doing their country proud by paying for something that was free and now paying for it due to a Monumental F-UP by our Old government and Banks fait play to you but I was never brought up to be a sucker and I sure aint starting now. I have worked through my school years thru my colleges years and ever since I left college have worked and paid my taxes. Enough is enough and its about time people stood up for themselves and stopped taking this crap and hae other nitwits making us feel like crap for doing so!! I know why dont you law abiding citizens go off and join the Sean Quinn fan club up the road and pat yourselves on the back for saving the country and supporting those poor little rich boys who made the mess in the first place ;-)

There were taxes before and also there was college fees back in the day. You probably had FREE education throughout your school and college years.
Your post doesn't make any sense really especially when you want law abiding citizens to join the "Sean Quinn Fan Club". You seem to have more in common with him than the law abiding citizens.

Blandpebbles

Let's face it this thread isn't about the household charge it's about people feeling bad because they bought a house with a high maintenance charge while the rest of Greystones didn't. The desire to want to be let off and have others pay their way makes them no different to the bankers we are now paying for.

Everyone will pay... Despite the posturing

dubsgirl

Blandpebbles wrote: »

Let's face it this thread isn't about the household charge it's about people feeling bad because they bought a house with a high maintenance charge while the rest of Greystones didn't. The desire to want to be let off and have others pay their way makes them no different to the bankers we are now paying for.

Everyone will pay... Despite the posturing

Nope not true - I for one am glad of the maintenance charge, Its through this charge that Charlesland is for sure one of the nicest most well kept estates in Greystones.

Once again most posters here are not looking to be "let off"

loyatemu

matt-dublin wrote: »

actually only about 10% is insurance.

about 60% is grounds maintenance, common electricity (street lighting etc)

i believe only the duplexes and apartments pay block insurance, the houses dont.

the houses in the Grove certainly do. If the tax does turn out to be value-based, the presence of a management fee must affect (to some extent) the value of houses in Charlesland.

anyway, it looks like you will have to pay the tax, probably better to concentrate your efforts on getting the estate taken in charge and thus reducing/eliminating the management fee (though you can be sure the council won't maintain all the pretty planting and landscaping around the estate - they don't even cut the grass here).

Blandpebbles

dubsgirl wrote: »

Nope not true - I for one am glad of the maintenance charge, Its through this charge that Charlesland is for sure one of the nicest most well kept estates in Greystones.

Once again most posters here are not looking to be "let off"

Point taken