Fighting Game DLC

Sairus

This comes up every other week in specific game threads and the discussion tends to evaporate as it strays away from that thread's focus, so it's probably high time it gets a full on topic.

What are your thoughts on this oh so controversial of topics?

Personally I'm not fully in a pro-DLC or no-DLC camp as it's not entirely a black and white subject as far as I'm concerned.

Street Fighter 4

SF4 is probably the closest to what I'm comfortable with DLC. The full game is totally stand alone, the only thing you pay for are costumes. These are unnecessary extras that (almost) don't affect the game itself, so anyone who wants them can have them and anyone who doesn't want to spend anything beyond the initial purchase is free to do so.
Admittedly before DLC came along these alternate costumes would probably have been free within the game, but DLC is here to stay and unlockable extras like this are very likely going to be a thing of the past unfortunately.

Arcade Edition is where things get a little more muddled, but I'm still decently okay with it. AE is a proper expansion pack to the game. It rebalanced (for better or worse) the entire game and added new characters - characters that while being mostly clones, were developed after the game was released and so were not part of its budget.

Marvel vs Capcom 3.

MvC3 is the other side of this coin.
MvC3 had Shuma Gorath and Jill as DLC virtually at launch. These aren't just bull**** extra skins that add a little extra flair. While neither characters are actually terribly great, they are still game changing additions to the game.

In order to have the full set of multiplayer tools available, people needed to buy extra parts to a game they'd just paid full price for. To make it even more insulting they weren't even included in Ultimate. People who bought two versions of the same game in the same year still had to fork out an extra €10 to have the full roster.

Street Fighter x Tekken

And then there's the big daddy of DLC issues.
As is well known, there are 12 extra characters already completed, sitting on the disk waiting for Autumn when we'll be able to buy them for $20.

This is actually a little more complex than it looks at first glance and I'm honestly not terribly sure which side of the coin I fall on this in total.

Firstly, the fact that it's on the disk is irrelevant. If the content is already completed at launch, does it really matter if you pay to unlock it, or pay to download the 2GB from the XBLA?

The real problem is that it is completed at launch - 12 characters (over a quarter of the entire current roster) are ready to play before the game even ships. Not only are they asking that we pay a third the cost of the entire game for these guys, but that we wait for 6 months for no other reason than to make more money on a PSVita Exclusive.

So the first problem is that they're available at launch. This is actually a bit of a grey area. When the game is being made it's budgeted for the 40 core characters and they go ahead and develop the game. Then a secondary budget for these twelve characters is set aside and they start being made.
That's two separate investments from Capcom that both need to make money.

Can we really expect to get 12 extra characters for free?
Would these characters have ever been considered for the game if DLC was not an option?
If that was the case, and these 12 would never have been made, would you prefer only ever having 40 characters in the game than having to pay for them separately?
Does it really make a difference if that content is made before the game is finished, or if the game is released then the team goes to work on extra characters?

Personally, I still think it's wrong to start working on extra content before the game releases. Realistically, it makes very little difference, but mentally it does. If content is finished before or alongside the full game, I feel entitled to it. I'm paying €60-€70 for your game. The least you could do is give me all the necessary pieces to play it that you have completed at the time.

If a game is €10 and you charge me for character packs at launch I might feel a little more liable to buy character packs, but only if I am also given the choice of buying all the characters in one batch at launch for that same €60.

The final part of my problem with SFxT is delaying the content not for development reasons, but purely to coax some money out of a Vita exclusive. This is completely bull**** and is a shameful way to treat your customers.

(I'm not even going to go into Gems. Those are like the awful offspring of DLC costumes and characters and should never have existed. Frivilous extra content that's actually game changing is an awful concept.)

However, DLC characters are not always awful.

Skullgirls

Now I know my unabashed love for Skullgirls is pretty well known, so I'm probably being a little biased here, but hear me out!
Skullgirls is one of the few exceptions I'll make on allowing DLC characters for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the game is dirt cheap compared to its competitors. €15 from PSN or XBLA is very low entry point. Compared to the €60 of other titles (or €30 if it was a Super version).

Secondly, the game is being made with a very small team and despite several delays, 8 characters were all they could actually budget for and put in the game at launch.
It takes that small team 3 months to make and animate a character for the game. It would take another year of development for Reverge to actually produce a game with a starting lineup equivalent to that of even Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

The only way to realistically ship this game was to release it with a small roster and bulk it up with DLC additions afterwards.

Blazblue, Mortal Kombat and King of Fighters

These three also fall into this Skullgirls type region where I'm sort of comfortable with them.

As far as I know, all of them developed their DLC characters after the game shipped and then released each character as it was finished, as Skullgirls is planning.

A lot of people complain about this type of development. In order to have the full set for your game, you need to keep buying new pieces every few months. Would you prefer your game was never updated and left with the same 20-30 characters forever? Alternatively would you have preferred to wait for BBCS Extend or MK GotY Edition? Finally, do you prefer the current model of just biting the bullet and buying new characters as soon as they drop?

While this is certainly annoying, BB gets some kudos for releasing this characters this way by including the massive BBCS2 patch for free along with these characters. Every game does balance patches, but the BBCS2 patch was big enough that the could have charged for it.
MK loses some kudos because Skarlet was mostly finished before the game shipped.
King of Fighters gets less slack because its DLC characters are all basically palette swaps and still cost the same price as full characters in other games.

All in all, I'm not sure where I fall with these types of DLC characters. DLC characters in general make it a nightmare for running tournaments in general, but I do like extra characters. I think a happier middle ground would be to release characters in expansion packs like Arcade Edition instead of individually. However, while this makes it more convenient and probably cheaper for the consumer, it will lose the company money by not being able to charge individually for characters and there'll be a big profit downtime between character patches as opposed to one every few months.

Tekken Tag Tournament 2

This is going an interesting route with DLC characters in that there will be 4 DLC characters, but they will all be free. The only price attached is that they will be preorder bonuses from different shops before eventually being released for free as regular downloads. I don't really see much problems with this as it gets some extra money for the developer by selling exclusivity contracts without causing much hassle for the player.

Tournaments in General

Of course what makes DLC characters really awkward across the board is tournaments. Undeniably this is a factor that weighs in heavily against DLC, even free DLC, as it means the TO will have to ensure DLC compatibility or just ban all the DLC outright.

So, after that long, rambling and probably contradictory post, I ask you, what are your thoughts on DLC?

Sairus

Jesus that's a massive post.

Kirby

Not really, he has just formatted it very well to make it easier to read. If he had just put it in one big block, it would look "smaller" but be a pain to read.

Sairus

Yeah. He's weird like that.

Kirby

Sigh. Nobody gets my humour.

Back to the basement for me.

1man3letters

no mention of mk9 but mention of a game thats not even out yet, that hurts

Mr.Saturn

1man3letters wrote: »

no mention of mk9 but mention of a game thats not even out yet, that hurts

In fairness, there was a hint of its exclusion in the title, with the mention of fighting games and all......

Sairus

1man3letters wrote: »

no mention of mk9 but mention of a game thats not even out yet, that hurts

Fine. In the spirit of this thread I added some free DLC and patched in MK compatibility.

SirAuronDX

Could mention soul calibur dlc
Mostly nothing but additions for cosmetics but also a massive list of music from the past soul calibur games allowing personal choice on stages. Patch updates are free and we're probably gonna see some more

Sairus

SirAuronDX wrote: »

Could mention soul calibur dlc
Mostly nothing but additions for cosmetics but also a massive list of music from the past soul calibur games allowing personal choice on stages. Patch updates are free and we're probably gonna see some more

That's why I didn't mention it. It's extra non required content as I covered in SF4. Dampierre is also under the same Shuma Gorath/Jill heading from Marvel. No sense in really repeating myself.

MK, Blazblue and KoF were all just different enough that I figured they each warranted inclusion in my rant.

K.O.Kiki

SFIII:3rd Strike OE
DLC of really bad colour palettes (which would've been better served with a palette editor á la KOF XIII), 2nd Impact music which wasn't implemented correctly :rolleyes: , and footage of a "tournament" with players worse than what you see in bi-weekly Game Spot Versus tournaments :pac:

At least it's all optional & easy to ignore.

Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown
Cosmetic DLC for your character, which brings the full-game price up to retail level; however, again it's purely cosmetic (and the low entry price offsets the bad press).


On-topic: UMvC3's Shuma/Jill fiasco disgusts me, how can you keep them DLC when they were more-or-less finished/on-disc in vanilla anyway?

(Hypocritically) though, I have no problem with actual DLC characters (i.e you download them). Still not sure how I feel about KOF's 3 DLC characters.

Misty Chaos

Personally, I have no real issue with on-disc DLC, unless it's clear the developers are taking the p!ss ala the SFxT fiasco ( that disgusted me. ) In contrast was more than happy to buy Damp in SCV ( along with a load of the create a soul DLC ) on the other hand because namco were at least not hiding the fact from us for hackers to discover and I wanted to actually support the game.

DLC is here to stay, though unfortunately. Us gamers will need to keep an eye on the companies to insure they don't take the p!ss and raise hell if / when they do ( like was done over SFxT. )

Doyler01

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

In fairness, there was a hint of its exclusion in the title, with the mention of fighting games and all......

ayjayirl

DLC is the way its going for all games. Its simple really, no distribution cost (or minimised anyway). Its already in place really for other digital content (music & movies). Its only a matter of time until its the defacto standard. The way in which is is charged is more pertinent I think, as Sai has eluded to. Personally I am of the old school opinion that you should not be placed at a disadvantage after buying the game by being required to buy extra's that affect it. costumes, skins, etc etc fine, but characters/guns etc shouldn't be in the game. Just imho.

For tourneys its a right pain the arse. I would loves it if publishers gave you a get CD/DVD option for tournament organisers. Even if you had to register with them as a tournament organisation........ (sound like a good idea really ) anyway, I ramble a bit.

This same topic was explored in a fair bit of detail in the arcade and retro thread a while back, so I'll just briefly restate my point of view on it.

I'm not a fan of DLC in general. As a retro game fan who's gone through a fair bit of console hardware over many years of playing video games, i like all my stuff to be on a disc, because i can look after it, and copy it/back it up and access it long after the limitations of HDD lifespans have passed. DLC is a little cheaper and handier than going to the shop or searching for hard to get stuff, sure, but the long term downsides of it for me (as someone who loves playing old games) are not worth the hassle.

Also, as posted in relation to tourneys, events, or just going round to your mate's house for a game, reliance on hard drive media or a lack of certain bits of content on a disc is a real pain, particularly stuff like game updates or patches that have become the defacto standard (like SSFIVAE v2012 for example). That issue will only become more of a pain as hard drives start to fail and when the current generation of consoles give way to the next and DLC items are no longer available on marketplaces.

Sabre0001

Costumes don't bother me at all and I would actually encourage more along this line of cosmetic, but not crucial DLC - why aren't there extra stages or musical tracks developed for example.

My experience is pretty much Capcom stuff, so I don't understand why they go the character route. It's not like they have a great reputation for balancing and it takes them several goes at the best of times. This is possibly the most difficult DLC to do correctly, especially if you're going to have it ready and then release it after launch.

I wouldn't have minded them releasing Heroes & Heralds as DLC (provided that you could play both locally and online easily). New game modes and different takes on a standard formula is something quite interesting - takes a bit of work, but players will appreciate that kind of approach (although in the case of H&H I heard people pick Hulk and plenty of the health boosters and just never die).

1man3letters

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

In fairness, there was a hint of its exclusion in the title, with the mention of fighting games and all......

making fun of mk, how original :rolleyes:
even though that was i good one i still smh

anyways with mk DLC....

they were worked on after release and were VERY poorly tested before release, freddy was stored on the disc as base male DLC,
compatibility packs were made so people who did not by them could fight against them, these also came with free alt klassic costumes which was nice, sadly they were optional to download and some people didnt, when freddy was released it was not optional to have his pack as it was set as a hotfix/patch.
why they didnt do that will all chars i still dont know, maybe cause WB own freddy and what not,
there was also a klassic pack released that had several other alt costumes for chars from mk1/mk2/umk3 which was a pre-order bonus at 1st and later was released to be bought on xbl/psn

Forest Demon

I am not even close to the skill level to play any one fighting game competitively but I do love fighting games and have been playing them since day one in the arcades. I only really play online.

Anyhow here is my 2c about DLC.

MK:

With MK I bought the Komplete edition. If you want to play the DLC characters the other person has to have downloaded the compatibility pack. It makes it a pain to main any of the DLC characters online.

Other then that I think that MK DLC was actually good. It would have been better if they released the 4 in one pack and made the compatibility mandatory with all the costumes. Nobody can complain about the content delivered with MK originally. Looking forward to MK10!

SF4

DLC costumes are fair enough as they are optional and mostly good quality. The constant tweaking/nerfing and boosting of the game along the way whilst annoying has produced a benchmark fighting game. Some people prefer Super and some AE but the game can be appreciated as a package when you look at SFxT and other FGs that where released. For me anyway that is the case. 30 quid is great value for AE on PSN/XBL now. Not so great value if you bought SF4, SSF4, AE and most of the costumes.

Tekken Tag 2 and SC5

Best approach to DLC as far as I can see. Timed exclusives and free to all eventually. The DLC for SC5 is complete crap and very bad value for money but it is optional. I don't like the fact that one character is DLC. At least Namco have said that they would not do that with TT2.

MvC 3

Maybe biggest rip off of all (or SFxT??) as they released what was supposed to be DLC (ultimate) as a full game making the original purchase redundant. The two extra characters where are rip off and as others have said should have been included in ultimate. Ultimate should have been 15 quid if you had MvC3 and should include all previous DLC (like when MK released the komplete edition). So in this case the fact that it was not DLC is my biggest issue. Well that and the two extra DLC characters just being plain scabby and crap value. Costumes are ok with the value pack but not so good when bought in small blocks.

SFxT

I bought this game cheap so that affects how I look at DLC. Others have detailed their problems with the DLC and I agee. This game seems to have been designed by accountants. My biggest issues with this game is not the DLC to be honest. I don't think I will not be buying any DLC for it unless it gets a serious re-balance and tweak. The Crosscounter invitational tournament on youtube was actually good craic and made me want to give the game another go. Looking forward to seeing it during EVO. Why did they not release the game in the arcades?? Does this not seriously hinder the game in Japan etc?

Online this game is a ****ing nightmare with the constant lag, spam, turbo jabs, clock running out etc. I also hate that all normal moves lead to constant cheap launcher moves. Everyone uses the same four or five characters. Gems are just another thing to balance and I don't like the concept especially the assist ones. The fact that you have to buy some of the gems is a load of bollocks.

Capcom will be charging us per fireball or to build meter in the future. Just stick the credit card in the machine. They will tell us that we have a choice and to just use normal moves instead if we like :rolleyes:.

The game has potential but there is so much hate generated by the DLC strategy that it might already be dead. I was looking forward to this so much.

Virtua Fighter Final Showdown

Bargain and a great game. This game is a breath of fresh air in so many ways. If anyone has not picked it up then do so and give it a go. It strikes the right balance in so many ways.

DLC in general

DLC is here to stay although they should re-brand it additional content. It should not be stuff that they held back at release and a full release of a game should never end up being a lite version IMHO.

New characters have such an effect on fighting games that the game should be given time to breathe before releasing other new characters and they should only be released in 3 month blocks. I hate pre order exclusives even more then DLC. If DLC is good value for money then I have no issue with it. I do have an issue if a company release half a game for full price and then try and extract the price of another game to have the full roster. The season pass concept can be good with a game if it is going to be supported. You pay once and get all future DLC that comes out for it. COD elite and BF3 premium deliver 10 times the content that any fighting game DLC delivers. 40 quid for a year of regular content and support for a game is ok.

Fighting game DLC is the most expensive out of all the genres and Capcom are the main culprits. The worst part is that they know it and keep doing the same thing and getting worse with every release. If SFxT is not the game to bite them in the bollox then that day is coming. Just look at the amount of negative comment on the web on sites such as IGN and Gamespot.

Mr.Saturn

1man3letters wrote: »

making fun of mk, how original :rolleyes:
even though that was i good one i still smh

i was just kidding, i like mk.

I have a particular hatred for DLC characters in fighting games. I think putting people at an advantage/disadvantage by releasing characters that not everyone has access to puts money before things like game balance and having an even playing field. I would never take a fighting game that sold characters as add-ons seriously.

If add-on DLC to increase profits is here to stay, then at least it should be done the way SF4 has done things. All the DLC for every version of that game, while expensive, has been optional, and has had no effect on the roster or game balance. If you like it you buy it, but if you don't you're not at any disadvantage.

Aurongroove

as far as I'm concerned all the bull**** like new costumes can be DLC. I certainly wont be buying anything like that with real cash.


it's when there are players who are added DLC or stages (in fighters like tekken, where stages effect gameplay) that really hurts a game, fighting games especially.

that's why they got rid of unlocking players ala early Tekkens; the game's roster should be accessible by putting the disk in the console.

costumes and extra winning poses and things which don't effect the gameplay are fine, you can DL that C until the cows come home. but the likes of MK having a stab at making a semi serious game and having to unlock fighters and download them?
bull****. they're shooting themselves in the foot. as did SC with needing to unlock a patroklos and co..

have the roster available from putting in the disk.

if anything DLC for fighters should be as folllows:

free engine changes if glitches or broken stuff is discovered after release (SC have done wonderful things with correcting their game)

purchasable costumes or soundtracks or winning poses skin swaps etc for people who have more money then sense.

when drastic but "sub sequil" updates are made (like SSFVI) the option to buy the software for an extra 10 or 20 euros on top of your SFVI disc. similar to how computer programmes operate.

there definitely should not be optional purchasable characters if your trying to make a serious fighting game. fine if it's like FF Dissidia or a Dragonball game, but if you're hoping for a serious game, no way Jose (pronounced "hoes-ay").

1man3letters

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

i was just kidding, i like mk.

dont worry about it man, i didnt take offence