Are goal kickers better than they used to be?

errlloyd

Is it just me or are kickers getting a much higher percentage of kicks than they used to?

Or are the statistics being skewed by more consistent balls, and better / more sheltered stadia?

GerM

Better balls, better boots, better analysis of kicking techniques, dedicated coaches etc. Nearly every sport sees improvements in all areas as time moves on. In 1996, I wasn't sure anyone would beat Michael Johnson's 200m world record in my life. In another 20 years, I wouldn't be surprised if almost every first choice professional kicker could knock them over from their own 10m line.

Podge_irl

There has certainly been a massive improvement in ball technology over 30 years ago. More enclosed stadia makes a difference too - kicking in the new Lansdowne is a lot easier then in the old wind tunnel of a stadium. Better coaching and most importantly more hours of kicking practice due to them being pro players have all had an impact.

desertcircus

I'd say there could well be a move in the next ten years to adjust the relative value of a penalty against a try. It's been done before, and it's getting to the stage that every second or third team has a kicker who can knock one over from inside their own half. The Top14 final this year was tryless, in part a consequence of increased accuracy and range for kickers - and nobody likes a tryless game. Change it to two points for a penalty and you change the equation.

JustinDee

desertcircus wrote: »

I'd say there could well be a move in the next ten years to adjust the relative value of a penalty against a try

Won't change.
If you lower the value of the kick, penalising infringements made by defending teams under pressure who are opting for giving away less than a try.
If you raise the value, you are devaluing the try itself with the most likely result being . . . less tries being scored.

thomond2006

The only thing I wouldn't mind changing is the points for scoring a drop goal being reduced to 2. Some teams take the p*ss by taking too many drop goals. Yes it's a tough skill but I don't like when teams take easy drop goals too much instead of going for a try, although there is a time and place for that.

Skid

In general Kickers are better now, the balls, boots and tees are much more conducive to kicking.

But there were some fine kickers back in the day too, like Paul Thorburn ...

Teferi

Skid wrote: »

In general Kickers are better now, the balls, boots and tees are much more conducive to kicking.

But there were some fine kickers back in the day too, like Paul Thorburn ...

That's the video I was thinking of when I saw this thread.

Imagine what he would have been able to do with modern boots, ball and training? He would be slotting them for fun from his own dead ball line.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

The only thing I wouldn't mind changing is the points for scoring a drop goal being reduced to 2. Some teams take the p*ss by taking too many drop goals. Yes it's a tough skill but I don't like when teams take easy drop goals too much instead of going for a try, although there is a time and place for that.

i think one converted try as being worth more than 2 drop goals is fine.

Theres a time and place for drop goals and is an integral skill of the game. Every team plays to its players strengths, and some teams have great DK's.. other have crap, bottleless ones.

irishbucsfan

I could see them bringing in a rule to say you can't kick it from within your 10 meter line!

KJY

Aren't they doing some trial in SA where penalties are worth 2 points and conversions worth 3 to maintain quality kickers.

I'm sure yellow cards would solve the problem Justin Dee talks about but that would still be a problem all right

twinytwo

errlloyd wrote: »

Is it just me or are kickers getting a much higher percentage of kicks than they used to?

Or are the statistics being skewed by more consistent balls, and better / more sheltered stadia?

back is the day a kid would run onto the pitch with a bucket of sand for the kicker to make a kicking mound with.....

Also the fact that 10's can spend hours each day doing nothing but kicking tends to help

twinytwo

KJY wrote: »

Aren't they doing some trial in SA where penalties are worth 2 points and conversions worth 3 to maintain quality kickers.

I'm sure yellow cards would solve the problem Justin Dee talks about but that would still be a problem all right

i hope not... they need to stop messing around with rugby.

what do you mean by maintain quality kickers??....

twinytwo

Skid wrote: »

In general Kickers are better now, the balls, boots and tees are much more conducive to kicking.

But there were some fine kickers back in the day too, like Paul Thorburn ...

what a monster kick... and lol at the scot taking it in the sack:D:D

durkadurka

twinytwo wrote: »

back is the day a kid would run onto the pitch with a bucket of sand for the kicker to make a kicking mound with.....

Also the fact that 10's can spend hours each day doing nothing but kicking tends to help

Sand? Pah!
You must be a good bit younger than me!
In the 80's Ollie Campbell would dig a lump of muck out of the ground with his studs and make a tee out of it. Twas an art. It made shyte of the pitch though.

irishbucsfan

twinytwo wrote: »

what a monster kick... and lol at the scot taking it in the sack:D:D

If that had gone under the bar it would have been a 5 metre scrum for the knock on! :pac:

A2LUE42

durkadurka wrote: »

twinytwo wrote: »

back is the day a kid would run onto the pitch with a bucket of sand for the kicker to make a kicking mound with.....

Also the fact that 10's can spend hours each day doing nothing but kicking tends to help

Sand? Pah!
You must be good but younger than me!
In the 80's Ollie Campbell would dig a lump of muck out of the ground with his studs and make a tee out of it. Twas an art. It made shyte of the pitch though.

I remember my parents being less than impressed with me copying that on the lawn.

Clareman

I think tee's have a massive impact on kicking, as well as standardized balls. IMVHO the next logical step by the authorities to reduce the importance of the kicker is to outlaw kicking from the ground, in other words make make all kick drop kicks. I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

twinytwo

Clareman wrote: »

I think tee's have a massive impact on kicking, as well as standardized balls. IMVHO the next logical step by the authorities to reduce the importance of the kicker is to outlaw kicking from the ground, in other words make make all kick drop kicks. I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

First point .. why??? this is union not league.

Second point.... why??? if they were going to do that they might as well remove conversation all together.

Pete_Cavan

JustinDee wrote: »

desertcircus wrote: »

I'd say there could well be a move in the next ten years to adjust the relative value of a penalty against a try.

Won't change.
If you lower the value of the kick, penalising infringements made by defending teams under pressure who are opting for giving away less than a try.
If you raise the value, you are devaluing the try itself with the most likely result being . . . less tries being scored.

He said "adjust the relative value of a penalty against a try", which could also be achieved by increasing the value of a try while leaving the value of a penalty unchanged. Surely increasing the points awarded for a try to 6, plus 2 for the conversion, is the next logical step as it incentivises trys while retaining penalties as a viable option of accumulating points?

Hermy

Clareman wrote: »

I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

twinytwo wrote: »

Second point.... why??? if they were going to do that they might as well remove conversation all together.

I think the removal of the conversation could be quite a talking point.

A2LUE42

Hermy wrote: »

Clareman wrote: »

I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

twinytwo wrote: »

Second point.... why??? if they were going to do that they might as well remove conversation all together.

I think the removal of the conversation could be quite a talking point.

If you want to make the kicks harder, the most straight forward options are to change the ball, narrow the distance between the posts or raise the crossbar.

yomtea98

The answer is yes

Trojan

Professionalism and natural progress have completely changed the game.

Take the conversion attempt for "the greatest try ever" (which may no longer have its crown): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXBIXqvNfwA#t=317s

You can also look at the gulf in difference in scrums, lineouts, rucks and mauls, which have changed dramatically.

errlloyd

OP here, two things to add to discussion.

Firstly, a lot of ye have posted comparisons to Thornborn's monster and the Baa Baas in the 70s and stuff, actually in the OP I was talking about far more recent changes. I feel when I started watching rugby 10 years ago getting a conversion from the touchline was a big deal, these days its expected.


Secondly, how would people feel about changing the value of a penalty kick depending on where it was being taken from? 3 points inside the 22, 2 points outside?

durkadurka

What can touch a man like that?

castie

Asia BaBas game against Saracens at the weekend in Hong Kong.
Winning kick was just outside the 22 on a grass tee!!!

jacothelad

Clareman wrote: »

I think tee's have a massive impact on kicking, as well as standardized balls. IMVHO the next logical step by the authorities to reduce the importance of the kicker is to outlaw kicking from the ground, in other words make make all kick drop kicks. I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

Do you mean. "O.K. lads I've scored so what shall we talk about? The price of diesel is shocking."

JustinDee

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

He said "adjust the relative value of a penalty against a try", which could also be achieved by increasing the value of a try while leaving the value of a penalty unchanged. Surely increasing the points awarded for a try to 6, plus 2 for the conversion, is the next logical step as it incentivises trys while retaining penalties as a viable option of accumulating points?

I just explained th effects of that.
Increasing a try's points has the same effect as lowering a penalty kick's points.

kerash

Hermy wrote: »

twinytwo wrote: »

First point .. why??? this is union not league.

Second point.... why??? if they were going to do that they might as well remove conversation all together.

Clareman wrote: »

I think tee's have a massive impact on kicking, as well as standardized balls. IMVHO the next logical step by the authorities to reduce the importance of the kicker is to outlaw kicking from the ground, in other words make make all kick drop kicks. I also would be in favour of making whoever scored the try take the conversation.

I think the removal of the conversation could be quite a talking point.

I think that a mute point.











:pac:

daveharnett

errlloyd wrote: »

Secondly, how would people feel about changing the value of a penalty kick depending on where it was being taken from? 3 points inside the 22, 2 points outside?

Do you get three points if you are awarded the penalty inside the 22 and voluntarily retreat outside?

If so, all kicks would now be taken from outside the 22 (at least at higher levels). If not, defenders would wait for attackers to cross the 22 before killing the ball. Would make for some really odd dynamics.

pickarooney

daveharnett wrote: »

Do you get three points if you are awarded the penalty inside the 22 and voluntarily retreat outside?

If so, all kicks would now be taken from outside the 22 (at least at higher levels). If not, defenders would wait for attackers to cross the 22 before killing the ball. Would make for some really odd dynamics.

He's proposing the opposite - that penalties are worth more if you're close to the opponent's try line. I can see a certain logic to it but wouldn't imagine it would really work.

JustinDee

pickarooney wrote: »

He's proposing the opposite - that penalties are worth more if you're close to the opponent's try line. I can see a certain logic to it but wouldn't imagine it would really work.

That devalues the try by rewarding field position with a wealthy penalty opportunity.

sydthebeat

lads, do you not think your arguing a debate which is groundless?

id love to see the figures of trys scored to penalties throughout the professional era... im sure it would show a steady rate of increase for tries and a fairly level penalty rate.

To be honest, i think its great that ulster have a kicker like Pienaar who can kick from anywhere. i dont think it devalues their team strategy by not being try focused, if anything its a greater deterrent to defences not to be cynical / illegal at more areas of teh pitch... thus leading to more try opportunities.

pickarooney

JustinDee wrote: »

That devalues the try by rewarding field position with a wealthy penalty opportunity.

Penalties are already worth 3 points inside the 22 so it wouldn't really have any effect there. The two-point penalty from outside would perhaps encourage teams to run it forward a bit, at least as far as the 22 but I doubt it would lead to more tries.

JustinDee

pickarooney wrote: »

Penalties are already worth 3 points inside the 22 so it wouldn't really have any effect there. The two-point penalty from outside would perhaps encourage teams to run it forward a bit, at least as far as the 22 but I doubt it would lead to more tries.

Just promotes a drive to the far third of field to set up for drop goal or penalty.

What do you do if the exact spot of penalty is contentiously on 22, such as a player slowing down ball? Where is the penalty spot? Player's midriff? Player's waist? Player's upper-body? Can you see all of the player enough to make a call?

Nah. Far too hazy to implement.

pickarooney

The only thing that might work, and it would destroy the game in other ways, is to make penalties non-kickable with a 10 metre advantage for any infringement.

decisions

If it ain't broke don't fix it.