Help/tips with this mix

pinksoir

Hey,

I wouldn't mind some input on this here mix.

http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo

Since I've treated my room there's been a dramatic difference for me in what I can hear/place in mixing. But I still don't really know what I'm doing so I'd love a second (or third) set of ears to give me some pointers on how I can improve.

So far what's going on is:

Vox - Motown exciting compressor stylee (side chained compression, sort of).

B Vox - Basically double tracked panned L/R, but the same as main vox only sang falsetto. So kinda triple tracked vox altogether.

L Guitar - Again slight parallel compression.

R Guitar - Same again.

Synth - Yamaha SK-20 with spring reverb.

Bass - Parallel compression again.

Drums - OH are compressed and limited with a touch of reverb. Kick is compressed so it's super boomy. Snare is compressed but pretty low, just to add a bit of beef.

Tambourine - Smile era Beach Boys style, with reverb send panned hard left.

The Motown exciting compressor dealy is this: http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/excomp.htm.

I find it pretty cool actually. The compressed track is sat very low under the main track just to add punch and clarity.

Basically I'm just looking for any opinions on this and any ideas of where I can improve it. The vocal could be better for sure, I'll do some better takes again. It's really just a rough one to get the other parts of the mix right.

Cheers.

pinksoir

I did some more work on it so here's a link to the latest version. I deleted the other one. URS Pro Channel strip is amazing...

http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo

pinksoir

After some sleep and listening back it sounds a bit hollow and the drums lack some... definition maybe? I'm finding it tough to make the snare snap without becoming too prominent. Overall it's quite muddy too and there's maybe a lack of definition across the board. I think the synth sits quite well in there but the vocal pops out too much for me. Also, the kick drum, which I eq'd and compressed to be pretty boomy, is fighting with the bass. So I'll need to eq those much better. Left guitars are pretty lost.

I'm definitely gonna easy back on the delay and reverb from the backing vox.

Any help on how I can work out the problems I have?

Rockshamrover

I can't help with the technical stuff but
It sounds like a cool song in there to me.

The drops are very nice.

pinksoir

Cheers. Ya, it's the technical stuff I'm stuck on. EQing is a bitch...

I'm trying to read and watch as much as I can but it's the putting into practice that's tough. Back at it again this evening anyways.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i think its great , is this after you had the hassles with the room?

it may not be techie perfect but its got a great character and vibe.

fair play.

pinksoir

Cheers. Yah, this is post room problems. There's still a little bit of boominess but it's very minimal now. I can pretty much compensate for it mentally when I'm mixing.

I actually went right back and started the mix over. I posted a thread in the main forum about a series of videos I watched which really really helped me understand what I should be doing regarding mixing. I'm not finished yet, but already it sounds much tighter, clearer and balanced.

I'll put up the mix when I'm done so it can be compared with the original.

Denalihighway

good song man - enjoyed that

i don't have technical training, so although i'd like to think i can spot glaring stuff i can't really comment on the tech side of things...which doesn't help you a lot does it?

techies/pros...throw this man a bone!

pinksoir

Cheers.

I'll put up my new mix later tonight. It sounds quite a lot better so will at least be a better jumping off point to get some help.

fitz

pinksoir wrote: »

Cheers.

I'll put up my new mix later tonight. It sounds quite a lot better so will at least be a better jumping off point to get some help.

Leave the first mix up for comparison too, will ya?

pinksoir

I will indeed.

pinksoir

Ok. So here's a couple of new mixes.

1) - http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo-2

Vocally, this is a pretty clean mix. I had compression on the vocal but it didn't sit right, so I copied the track and compressed the **** out of it, eq'd a good bit around 5-8k and then eased it in way under the main vocal just to give it a bit of exciting and clarity.

Snare has a little bit of reverb to help blend the drums and there's a touch of delay on the hats and toms. Apart from that the drums are clean and up front.

Little bit of reverb all round on the guitars and synth.

A touch of compression on pretty much everything too. Bass is compressed to arund 11:1, so limited basically. It helps it a lot I think.

I kind of like this mix and I feel a lot better about the balance, levels etc, but obviously it could be much much better. For me it's too bright though. Also, it seems a bit separated if you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't quite glue together.

2) - http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo-1

Then today I messed around with it and started a new mix. I added a ton of saturation to the main vocal but still kept the compressed track underneath. I also made the reverb bigger and wetter. I Eq'd the vocal differently too, now it has much more 320 and 800hz, and less 5k and 12k. I really like where it sits in the mix now.

The drums are the same, pretty much. A little bit of delay added to the snare.

I made the reverb on the left guitar bigger and wetter, and made the right guitar wetter too. I also rolled in a bit more low mid eq.

The synth I brightened and fattened up as it's not competing so much with the vox for space now.

Bass is the same, a little louder.

I really like the vibe of this mix. I did it very quickly today so I'll work more on it.

It's pretty difficult to mix with a crappy vocal take. I'm waiting on a new mic stand. I was holding a condenser in my hand for this vocal, plus I had a cold so it all makes for a pretty bad take. But it's more just to get the levels of everything else right. Though then I found myself turning the vocal down cos it was annoying me, which resulted in lheartache.

Thoughts and recommendations?

EDIT: Ugh, I uploaded it as a 320kbps mp3 and it severely degrades the sound. I'm sticking it up as a wave instead now.

pinksoir

Anybodieezz?

Kinda starting to pull my hair out now...

fitz

pinksoir wrote: »

Anybodieezz?

Kinda starting to pull my hair out now...

Only had a quick listen, will give full thoughts at some stage tomorrow, but the new mixes are better imo...

pinksoir

Thanks fitz, very much appreciated.

pinksoir

Here's my latest mix:

http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo-3

So, I changed a few things that help to make it gel together a little better.

I EQed in a little bit of 10k in the overheads and room mics. I also added a bit of reverb to the room mics (before compression) as the room sound was very tight/dry. As the snare and kick alternate(kick is on the offbeat), the snare needed some more beef so I added a bit of ~100-120hz. Most importantly, I widened the stereo image of the overheads and room mics. I had them at around 50% left and right. Now they're pretty much hard left and right. I wanted to have a tighter sound from the drums but I just don't think it was working in the track. I think the drums sit much better now.

The synth. It's kinda turned into the heart of the track. I'm not so sure about that particular synth sound, though. Good news is I have a Yamaha CS-50 on its way, so that will be a much better alternative. I think I could use a combo organ, or cheapy sort of reedy type organ instead actually. I don't have one right now, but I mean to pick one up. I could run it through the filters of another one of my synths too. I think that could be quite cool. It might give the part a more organic sort of sound.

But anyway. First I tried to turn it into pseudo stereo with a super short delay and panned l/r. That worked quite well, but then I tried running it through a stereo detuner. It works really well! Really fattens the sound and creates a lot of space for it in the mix.

I played with panning across the board just to get stuff sitting better. I like this mix quite a lot now. It's really annoying to be working with non-final vocal takes as it makes me mix them lower because they're way sub par. I keep telling myself to try and ignore the cruddyness of them but I can't help it. Still waiting on the mic stand... They are gonna be low enough in the mix in the end, though. I definitely don't want them sticking out over the instrumentation too much.

I guess my main problem with the mix is that it seems to be a bit big and wall-of-soundy. I'd quite like it to be a bit tighter. Obviously there's a good bit of reverb on the vocals so that's making it big. I reckon once I have a good vocal take I can ease that off a bit and it'll close everything up some.

pinksoir

So fitz, any tips/help?

fitz

First off...
Stop tinkering with it until you're happy with everything performance wise, otherwise you'll just lose perspective and get pissed off with it. At the moment, all your decisions are probably coloured by not being happy with the vocals. They're sitting back, when they should really be the focus, and your bringing other elements forward to compensate.

You're overdoing the ambience to try and cover up what you're not happy with in the vocals, bound to happen.
But, are the reverbs on the individual channels, or are you sending to effects busses? If the former, try the later, and EQ the bus to get the ambience while minimising muddiness introduced by the reverb. At the moment, the reverb isn't making anything big, it's softening everything up, and contributing to that "wall of sound" effect you mentioned. You're losing definition.

The kick is awol. I'd beef up the drums big time, and I reckon the synth is too prominent, but I think the first thing to do is get vocals that you're happy with.

If I was approaching the song, I'd try and get a nice balance with just the drums, bass and vocals, then bring up the guitars, and lastly the synth to fill things out. I reckon if you get this track sounding balanced with just the rhythm section and vocals, you'll be laughing. If you want it to sound tighter, focus on getting punch into your drums, give them the barest hint of a room sound, fatten up the bass, get your vocals sitting nicely, then bring up the guitars and synths. It won't need much of either I think.
But that's just what I'm hearing the track wants, you might be hearing something else entirely!
Hope some of that is helpful?

pinksoir

Thanks muchly. Definitely some good pointers there. The good news is my mic stand arrived so I can finally get at good vocal take.

Reverbs are all sends. I could definitely mess around with the eq on the busses though. I think I'm hearing quite a bit of mids (~1k) in them. I've rolled off up to 600hz and above 10k (a la Abbey Road).

I'll definitely work towards getting a good mix between the rhythm section and the vox. I've been having problems with the drums. They sound good on their own, but, as you can hear, quite flat and weak with everything else. I'll do some more work on them tomorrow though. I'll get the kick sounding better too. Like I said, it's on the offbeat so it's kind of weird to mix, if yo u know what I mean? Not entirely conventional and as the onbeat is just snare it might sound weird or something. Weak maybe.

Bass is also heartache. I have a little bit of resonance in my room right where the majority of the bass is playing (around the Bb, B and C) so it's tough to EQ it precisely. I have it limited too. About 11:1 and quite a high threshold of around 60% or so.

But you're totally right. Getting that balance right will be the most important thing. Those are the elements that will drive the song. And yeah, once I have a vocal I'm happy with I can concentrate on getting that balance right without compensating.

Thanks a million for the help. It's really appreciated. I'll post another mix once I've sorted it out some more.

pinksoir

Ok. So I took your advice. Kind of.

I could get a really nice mix with everything but the drums. So I set it all up and then tried to work the drums in. Thing was, they were really badly EQ'd to begin with. I went back and got a good mix between them and the bass. In the track, the snare was really...um... cutting or harsh or something. So I Eq'd a good bit out of its point in both the snare and the overheads. I think it blends in much better now.

I'm pretty happy with this mix now. I panned everything pretty much differently. All sits better now. I haven't redone the vocals yet as I've still got a bit of a cold. I will redo them, but for now I've mixed them pretty much at the level they'll be at. It's come to the point that I'm not hearing myself anymore, so it's a lot easier to mix them. I can just focus on the sound/levels/balance.

Anyway, it sounds something like this (little bit of mix buss compression):

http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo

Thanks for the help.

fitz

pinksoir wrote: »

Ok. So I took your advice. Kind of.

I could get a really nice mix with everything but the drums. So I set it all up and then tried to work the drums in. Thing was, they were really badly EQ'd to begin with. I went back and got a good mix between them and the bass. In the track, the snare was really...um... cutting or harsh or something. So I Eq'd a good bit out of its point in both the snare and the overheads. I think it blends in much better now.

I'm pretty happy with this mix now. I panned everything pretty much differently. All sits better now. I haven't redone the vocals yet as I've still got a bit of a cold. I will redo them, but for now I've mixed them pretty much at the level they'll be at. It's come to the point that I'm not hearing myself anymore, so it's a lot easier to mix them. I can just focus on the sound/levels/balance.

Anyway, it sounds something like this (little bit of mix buss compression):

http://soundcloud.com/ivanstjohn/see-what-i-have-done-demo

Thanks for the help.

Much better.
I'd still have gone with more drums, but that's preference.
How were the drums recorded btw?

pinksoir

Cheers.

I have a listen again today and see what it needs. The drums could maybe go up a bit, though they had a habit of sticking out too much in the mix and making it feel a bit hollow. Could have just been my ears though. The perspective of a good night's rest is vital!

They're Superior Drummer drums actually.