A new €25 charge for off-the-road cars is being considered by MINISTER of Environment

the culture of deference

New charge for off-the-road cars




A new €25 charge for off-the-road cars is being considered, with the alleged aim of discouraging those who would abuse the system




THE MINISTER for the Environment Phil Hogan is on another collision course over charging people for what was once free. New legislation is being prepared that will tighten up the rules on declaring a car off the road for the purposes of motor tax and a new €25 charge for doing so, although not officially confirmed, already has some quarters up in arms.


The reason for the change in legislation is primarily to close a loophole that allows a car to be retroactively declared off the road.


Needless to say, it’s all about the money. Current figures show that approximately 390,000 vehicles are declared as being off the road

Perhaps if those who use the system correctly saw those who abuse it being caught and punished for doing so, that €25 pill would be somewhat less bitter come the swallow.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/0530/1224316908557.html

listermint

Its disgusting tbh, why should someone pay for their car thats no in use on the roads.

This does not tackle the abuse only targets decent people. Shower of scumbags in government.

munchkin_utd

it makes sense.

There is an administrative cost in processing the documentation to declare the car off the road compared to simply extending the tax, so why shouldn't the person pay for it.

Mycroft H

Paying for the privilege to use the car on the roads. Pay for the privilege to keep the car off the road?

What the hell?

langdang

the culture of deference wrote: »

A new €25 charge for off-the-road cars is being considered, with the alleged aim of discouraging those who would abuse the system

Completely stupid way of doing things.
Bring in the SORN system - identify and fine those who drive SORN'd cars on the road. Through actual check points and use of ANPR. Seize the cars if they have to.
Otherwise it's just another rubbishy unenforced rule that relies on those of us who play by the rules to cough up while the offenders wriggle around it again.

djimi

Charging €25 is not going to discourage someone who is declaring their car off the road in an attempt to avoid paying hundreds in motor tax; it still works out cheaper to declare the car off the road.

The only way such a system is going to work is if they change it so that that car is declared off the raod in advance. That way every car in the country is either declared off the road or it is taxed; there is no grey area. People caught driving cars which have been declared off the road get hit with a hefty fine. Only way its going to sort out the issue.

theteal

Irish solution to an. . . .

Implementing sorn would be the desired solution but that would cost money to do. A blanket €25 charge is "more cost effective"

Yakuza

djimi wrote: »

People caught driving cars which have been declared off the road get hit with a hefty fine their cars crushed.

Fixed your post
No admin fee to do it, but severe consequences for those that abuse it.

johnny_adidas

just add the motortax to the cost of fuel, problem solved. an added saving in administration costs also

Darsad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it makes sense.

There is an administrative cost in processing the documentation to declare the car off the road compared to simply extending the tax, so why shouldn't the person pay for it.

Are you for real an administration cost to get already well paid and under worked civil servants to do their job

djimi

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it makes sense.

There is an administrative cost in processing the documentation to declare the car off the road compared to simply extending the tax, so why shouldn't the person pay for it.

In fairness an administration charge like this is a load of nonsense. Assuming the person doing it gets paid €15 a hour (I have no idea what they get paid) do you think it would take an hour and a half to process the document to declare the car off the road...?!!

munchkin_utd

djimi wrote: »

In fairness an administration charge like this is a load of nonsense. Assuming the person doing it gets paid €15 a hour (I have no idea what they get paid) do you think it would take an hour and a half to process the document to declare the car off the road...?!!

What they get in their pocket and what it "costs" is 2 different things.
To setup a workplace and to provide the backup services for it is not free. IT support is not cheap and the extra offices (and the lighting/ heating/ cleaning) needed to house the extra staff that are needed to provide this (free) service is not free either.
With 300,000 cars off the road, if you take 50 weeks of the offices being open thats 1200 cars a day to be registered.
(now not all will hit the system every year, but some will be registrered and de registered multiple times so 300k is not a bad figure of the nr of transactions)
Some cases will be straightforward and take a minute to process but some would need extensive following up, letter written phone calls made etc.
25euro is probably over the cost of what it costs, but its not free either!

I feel somewhat sorry for the vintage folks who only have their cars out in the summer but maybe they could be given a lower transaction fee OR take a leaf out of the german system that allows a vehicle to be taxed as on the road for a part of the year, but recurringly. i.e. car is only ever on the road from April to September so thats even incorporated into the numberplate that the car isnt to be used all year round.

Or maybe it should be free like water?
Water that costs 1billion euro a year to provide.
But no, thats supposed to be free and magically paid for by someone else too.

Atomic Pineapple

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Or maybe it should be free like water?
Water that costs 1billion euro a year to provide.
But no, thats supposed to be free and magically paid for by someone else too.

Technically the cost of water is "supposed" to be covered in the overall tax take from the public as it is a basic human need to live. So in fact we already pay for it (or at least we should have been). The only reason we now have water charges coming in is because we continually elect morons to run our country.

I would have imagined the same for declaring cars off the road, the service cost is actually covered by the general tax take from motor tax, at least it should be. And in reality the €25 charge is just another excuse to raise revenue from law abiding citizens.

heyjude

Just another new tax, the justification really doesn't matter, they can find a reason to justify anything they want to do, as they've done with the household charge/tax, water charges/tax and the septic tank charge/tax.

eth0

BX 19 wrote: »

Paying for the privilege to use the car on the roads. Pay for the privilege to keep the car off the road?

What the hell?

This is from the same lad who wants you to pay no small amount for the privilege of living in your own house so hardly surprising

Is this going to be an annual charge?

Tragedy

munchkin_utd wrote: »

What they get in their pocket and what it "costs" is 2 different things.
To setup a workplace and to provide the backup services for it is not free. IT support is not cheap and the extra offices (and the lighting/ heating/ cleaning) needed to house the extra staff that are needed to provide this (free) service is not free either.

They already have the staff to process declaring cars off the road (after the fact) so why would they have new costs to declare cars off the road (before the fact)?

With 300,000 cars off the road, if you take 50 weeks of the offices being open thats 1200 cars a day to be registered.
(now not all will hit the system every year, but some will be registrered and de registered multiple times so 300k is not a bad figure of the nr of transactions)

Why would every car that's off the road suddenly be taxed?

Some cases will be straightforward and take a minute to process but some would need extensive following up, letter written phone calls made etc.
25euro is probably over the cost of what it costs, but its not free either!

What needs following up?

Or maybe it should be free like water?
Water that costs 1billion euro a year to provide.
But no, thats supposed to be free and magically paid for by someone else too.

Have you ever heard of VAT? Or PAYE?
No?
That explains a lot about that quote^

ShadowHearth

Oh god, why the feckers just have to invent some stupid way to tackle the problems.

Make people to declare car off road, before it goes off road. Make a stupendest huge fine for cought on road with car, which declared off road. Job done.

djimi

In fairness, I can understand why they are bringing this charge in; there are a lot of people who are trying to exploit the system of declaring a car off the road in an effort to avoid paying road tax and I can understand this issue needs to get sorted. However they way they are going about it makes no sense. Charging €25 is not going to stop someone who is looking to avoid paying €100+, and it only wrongly penalises those who are legit.

Voodoomelon

There'll be a lot of delighted people out there who will gladly pay €25 to declare the car off the road, as opposed to an "in-advance" system.

corktina

do you not feel its fair for a Householder to pay towards street lighting or pavement sweeping for instance?

As regards this €25, well theres a cost to administer you declaring your car off road, is it fair that everyone without a car off road should contribute towards your cost?

galwaytt

munchkin_utd wrote: »

What they get in their pocket and what it "costs" is 2 different things.
To setup a workplace and to provide the backup services for it is not free. IT support is not cheap and the extra offices (and the lighting/ heating/ cleaning) needed to house the extra staff that are needed to provide this (free) service is not free either.
With 300,000 cars off the road, if you take 50 weeks of the offices being open thats 1200 cars a day to be registered.
(now not all will hit the system every year, but some will be registrered and de registered multiple times so 300k is not a bad figure of the nr of transactions)
Some cases will be straightforward and take a minute to process but some would need extensive following up, letter written phone calls made etc.
25euro is probably over the cost of what it costs, but its not free either!

I feel somewhat sorry for the vintage folks who only have their cars out in the summer but maybe they could be given a lower transaction fee OR take a leaf out of the german system that allows a vehicle to be taxed as on the road for a part of the year, but recurringly. i.e. car is only ever on the road from April to September so thats even incorporated into the numberplate that the car isnt to be used all year round.

Or maybe it should be free like water?
Water that costs 1billion euro a year to provide.
But no, thats supposed to be free and magically paid for by someone else too.

complete PS justification bull****.

What about the 300,000 cars they're NOT processing tax for ? Can we stop paying them for that time, as well ? You can't have it both ways. This is the garbage thinking that Revenue have on VRT quotes as well - they don't do them anymore as they are 'too busy' - official reason I got, in writing, from Ms Feehily, btw.

And I don't buy the IT is not free line, either. The IT capability already exists, through motortax.ie, and the there is no cost to having owners declare their stuff off the road, as it's the owner/public who'd be doing it.

Any mention of IT cost and the PS - PPARS, HSE, anyone ?

Not to mention of course, all the cars/bikes/etc that are off the road - for years, which they don't have 'live' on the system. It's like the HH tax - they're just using the public to do the legwork for them, and to create the database stick they'll then come around to beat you with.

Of course, the real answer is fair and equitable tax, instead. Imagine that - the PS don't want to spend any time or effort doing anything constructive like that though, would they ?

Indricotherium

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There'll be a lot of delighted people out there who will gladly pay €25 to declare the car off the road, as opposed to an "in-advance" system.

I think the suggestion is that the €25 will be part of declaring a car off the road in advance.

galwaytt

corktina wrote: »

do you not feel its fair for a Householder to pay towards street lighting or pavement sweeping for instance?

As regards this €25, well theres a cost to administer you declaring your car off road, is it fair that everyone without a car off road should contribute towards your cost?

Yes - if you do it.

I've lived on my road since 1997, and I've no lighting, and sweeping ? are you for real ?

So, no more money-for-jam from me.

Atomic Pineapple

corktina wrote: »

do you not feel its fair for a Householder to pay towards street lighting or pavement sweeping for instance?

They already do, the household charge is just a second charge for the same thing.

corktina wrote: »

As regards this €25, well theres a cost to administer you declaring your car off road, is it fair that everyone without a car off road should contribute towards your cost?

Only if the tax others pay is reduced to reflect this, it won't be.

munchkin_utd

galwaytt wrote: »

<snip>
Of course, the real answer is fair and equitable tax, instead. Imagine that - the PS don't want to spend any time or effort doing anything constructive like that though, would they ?

indeed, a tax on your income - Income Tax that'd be called !
But FG/ labour promised they wont do that so they have to go the old inequitable route of indirect charges all over the shop.

Its a balls. They cant reduce pensions, Cant reduce the highest dole in the world (disagree? name ONE place with higher long term benefits) Cant cut medical cards, cant cut 100s of millions of free medicines, cant touch PS salaries, cant touch 2 billion euro of kiddies allowance and to fund all the goodies cant raise income tax which is the most equitable way of all to gather up cash.

anyhow, this still isnt the worst idea ever.
Those who will pay are still saving 100s per year in having the car off the road so all they are doing is sharing some of the savings with the taxman.

Mr Simpson

The current system where owners can declare their car off the road after that period before they tax it is a joke tbh. You should have to declare it as soon as you take it off the road. I don't really have a problem with a €25 charge to declare a car off the road.

galwaytt

mmcn90 wrote: »

I don't really have a problem with a €25 charge to declare a car off the road.

I do. I drive a 'bike, and tax for that is €82. Why should I pay €25 to NOT use it ?

hondasam

I'm not totally against it tbh.
I think when declaring a car of the road then you should have to prove you also cancelled the insurance, this will sort out the ones who are genuine from the one who don't want to pay.

galwaytt

munchkin_utd wrote: »

indeed, a tax on your income - Income Tax that'd be called !
But FG/ labour promised they wont do that so they have to go the old inequitable route of indirect charges all over the shop.

Its a balls. They cant reduce pensions, Cant reduce the highest dole in the world (disagree? name ONE place with higher long term benefits) Cant cut medical cards, cant cut 100s of millions of free medicines, cant touch PS salaries, cant touch 2 billion euro of kiddies allowance and to fund all the goodies cant raise income tax which is the most equitable way of all to gather up cash.

anyhow, this still isnt the worst idea ever.
Those who will pay are still saving 100s per year in having the car off the road so all they are doing is sharing some of the savings with the taxman.

Why can't they touch them (seriously) ? If my employer goes bust, my wages and all else is gone, kaputt.

The PS employer in question, the State, is officially bankrupt, so no funds = no fun, guys. Sorry, but there's the door............the very idea that you HAVE to borrow, to pay on a losing proposition is nuts. Doesn't happen in the real world.

Mr Simpson

IMHO €25 aint that much. Its not free to process any form, why should it be for this.

Slightly OT, would it be possible to flag any off the road cars with the toll companies, so if they went through one, a fine would automatically issued?

djimi

hondasam wrote: »

I'm not totally against it tbh.
I think when declaring a car of the road then you should have to prove you also cancelled the insurance, this will sort out the ones who are genuine from the one who don't want to pay.

And what if you want to keep your car insured? If Im going away from 3 months and leave my car in my parents garage I still want it covered by insurance in case some little scrote tries to nick it!

munchkin_utd

just for perspective.
I looked up the costs that Munich city council in Germany charges to take a car off the road.

Its 5,90 Euro for local plates and 11 Euro for reg nrs from outside the city
http://www.muenchen.de/dienstleistungsfinder/muenchen/1064305/

in Vienna in austria its EUR 19,45 to deregister a vehicle
http://www.wienerstaedtische.at/service/kfz/fahrzeug-zulassung.html

Ireland is not the first country to make people pay for getting certificates from their government for taking a car off the road.
If the UK does it for free then isnt it great that they have north sea oil reserves to pay for such goodies :rolleyes: .

ArphaRima

I am an expat who travels home frequently a fortnight a time.
My car costs 1683 per year to tax yet I get to drive it maybe 6 weeks in that year at most.

In the UK I could tax it and get a refund for each month of disuse. Here it is per quarter.
That means each time I come home I will pay 475 to tax my car. Then I will pay 25 to declare it off the road. When I get home 4 months later I again pay 475 and another 25, and so on.

This is B*llsh1t.

If it goes through I swear I will sell my car and the Irish state can do without my tax.

If they are going to bring in SORN (which I agree with by the way) at least allow proper refunds for non-use. They shouldnt have it both ways.

Tragedy

munchkin_utd wrote: »

indeed, a tax on your income - Income Tax that'd be called !
But FG/ labour promised they wont do that so they have to go the old inequitable route of indirect charges all over the shop.

Its a balls. They cant reduce pensions, Cant reduce the highest dole in the world (disagree? name ONE place with higher long term benefits) Cant cut medical cards, cant cut 100s of millions of free medicines, cant touch PS salaries, cant touch 2 billion euro of kiddies allowance and to fund all the goodies cant raise income tax which is the most equitable way of all to gather up cash.

anyhow, this still isnt the worst idea ever.
Those who will pay are still saving 100s per year in having the car off the road so all they are doing is sharing some of the savings with the taxman.

There are tens of countries with higher long term benefits when cost of living is factored in to the equation.

djimi

fluffer wrote: »

I am an expat who travels home frequently a fortnight a time.
My car costs 1683 per year to tax yet I get to drive it maybe 6 weeks in that year at most.

In the UK I could tax it and get a refund for each month of disuse. Here it is per quarter.
That means each time I come home I will pay 475 to tax my car. Then I will pay 25 to declare it off the road. When I get home 4 months later I again pay 475 and another 25, and so on.

This is B*llsh1t.

If it goes through I swear I will sell my car and the Irish state can do without my tax.

If they are going to bring in SORN (which I agree with by the way) at least allow proper refunds for non-use. They shouldnt have it both ways.

Is there not some way of getting tax back on a car that is not in use? Or is that only in the case of stolen/written off cars?

Mr Simpson

djimi wrote: »

Is there not some way of getting tax back on a car that is not in use? Or is that only in the case of stolen/written off cars?

You can only get complete quarters of tax back, not individual months.

kuro2k

.

MugMugs

I was kind of surprised before I got to who was proposing it.

Good on you big Phil! You're some boyo !