Zombie Fuel.

southcentralts

Ok people, putting aside for the moment what causes the zombification, how long do you think a zombie could stay going assuming that they feed on people but ignore each other, they still will be burning fuel to sustain movement and minimal brain functionality.

I would say about 3-6 months without food and they would cease to function ( becoming too skeletal to pose a real threat).

what do you think?

degrassinoel

interesting question. They are incredibly durable, according to WWZ author Max Brooks and pretty much every film and book. A zombie which has been set on fire will continue to move after it should be dead. Likewise with frozen zombies, thawing out after time to continue on.

Given ideal conditions, a human being can last for weeks without food but not water. I'd probably double or triple that for a zombie.
But considering it's formerly vital organs are all but redundant; heart, liver, lungs, none of these are technically working.
I'm no expert at biology, but these organs are the ones that need fuel rather than muscle and brain. Would the lack of these working organs extend the "lifespan" of a zombie?

sweeney1971

As a follower of Zombie activities, you have got to think that the flesh is rotting and would attract flies, who lay eggs, which turn into flesh eating maggots. Just saying.

degrassinoel

If that was the case, zombies wouldn't last more than 2 weeks. Jus Sayin

ScumLord

Zombies can't consume flesh their dead which means they don't have a digestive system to process the food or a beating heart to transfer those nutrients to the muscles.

They could only feed off themselves using some sort of anaerobic digestion. Our muscles can do this while we're alive. Attacking and biting other people is purely to spread the disease.

Zombies can also lie dormant using next to no energy at all.

Zombies are also supposed to be toxic to living things, that would include flies, maggots and bacteria so the only process of decay zombies would undergo is weathering.

sweeney1971

I see where you are coming from Scumlord (great name!) but I just think that Zombies are just eating flesh just because their instincts have kicked in to survive and have gone all animal.
Never, ever trust a Zombie, they cannot be tamed and it is no use thinking you can break them by feeding, cleaning up after them and giving them playtime in the local park. There instinct is to bite the hand that feeds them.

southcentralts

Great answer Scumlord, anaerobic digestion was exactly what I was thinking of (though did not know what it was called), but how long would they be able to continue moving?

The reason I ask is come Z-day no doubt certain people will be rushed to some underground bunker somewhere to continue the survival of the species, which would work only if the zombies have a limited lifespan.

P.S. anyone else find it unusual that the usually hyper-sensationalizing american media has been downplaying the recent spate of cannibalistic behavior?

sweeney1971

America will play down the recent flesh eating attack and I bet there is many more to come. When they say do not worry it is time to worry.

ScumLord

sweeney1971 wrote: »

I see where you are coming from Scumlord (great name!) but I just think that Zombies are just eating flesh just because their instincts have kicked in to survive and have gone all animal.

Biting isn't really a human thing though, we lash out with our fists. To be honest I don't think biting to spread the disease would really work, it's not enough and a zombie would have to put too much time and effort into biting. The human bite is fairly pathetic, our heads aren't in the best position for biting either.

I'd imagine the zombie disease would have to be as infectious as the cold. Zombies lashing out with their fists are likely to break their own bodies too, so they'll likely be lashing out with exposed shape bones as well as biting. Projectile vomiting into peoples faces would also be a good way of spreading the disease.

I don't think their drive would have to be a feeding drive either. Most people would be desperate for help while their dying, if they got stuck in that mode it would make them highly dangerous as they chase down others begging for help. It could simply be anger. Maybe people get stuck in the last emotional state they where in as long as they crave interaction with healthy people it serves the disease inside them.

Crooked Jack

I could be wrong but dont muscles tear as we use them and then new, stronger ones replace them? (That's probably a very dumbed down version of the scientific explanation.)
As zombies wouldnt be generating new muscle but still tearing old muscle surely it would just be a matter of time before their legs and arms became useless. They still be alive I suppose but a much reduced threat.

sweeney1971

The main threat from a Zombie is the bite and any 'fluid' that it may pass onto you. From the 'Historical Records' such as the 'Walking Dead Series' Night of the Living Dead and other such Training Films the best way to dispatch a 'Zombie' is to cut its head off cleanly with a sharp machettie or better still plug it from a distance with a Rifle.

degrassinoel

sweeney1971 wrote: »

The main threat from a Zombie is the bite and any 'fluid' that it may pass onto you. From the 'Historical Records' such as the 'Walking Dead Series' Night of the Living Dead and other such Training Films the best way to dispatch a 'Zombie' is to cut its head off cleanly with a sharp machettie or better still plug it from a distance with a Rifle.

try to stay on topic sweeney

ScumLord

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I could be wrong but dont muscles tear as we use them and then new, stronger ones replace them? (That's probably a very dumbed down version of the scientific explanation.)

That's a spot on description. All humans have super strength in reserve but it comes at a price, it's often kept in reserve for life and death situations because of the price you pay is serious damage to tissue. Zombies would likely use this strength up early on leaving them the shambling zombies we all know and love.

Once muscles have been torn though it means that muscle is no longer a drain on the zombies fuel reserves.

Fallschirmjager

lol...indeed sweeney...historical records...LOL most excellent


i recall that the virus exists in huge quantities in the glands in the mouth. so any break of the skin and you are in trouble. also a Z is not interested in oral hygiene, teeth protection or pain reduction all the things that limit a bite in humans. think broken sharp teeth, rotting broken jaw bone soaked in Z virus and you get the idea. you dont need much to be in deep sh1t. also history shows us in a virus infection you dont need much to enter and replicate in your body.

also the virus is almost anti-god in its stature. nothing exists in nature like it. it is resilient and resists any attempts to break down. so all animals, creatures that would flock to break down and return to nature a dead body dont work on the living dead, in fact they refuse to engage. i seem to recall in one book wherever Z's were buried in large numbers, nothing would grow so it shows or at least implies that the virus is almost alien in nature (of course thats a whole separate topic). the real issue then is the problem of Z's will last for years probably decades as each new bite will encourage its rebirth. all you will need is one Z and you have to potential for another epidemic. also if we never truly discover where it comes from (which is unlikely in a post Z world) we also run the risk that a clean world could start again from something relatively simple. we also should pray (or is it prey) that the Z virus doesnt get all cozy with the cold virus....that would be a disaster close to an ELE, or extinction level event.

i do think it will peak and drop off however. it is likely when they exist in the millions, they will have millions of accidents that will result in a drop in numbers, e.g. think of the fire hazard in cities. i could really see cities becoming infernos consuming all in their path including a lot of Z with no survival instinct. IMHO the crawlers will exist for a very very long time and its those in the long grass of summer 10 years after the outbreak that will be the biggest threat.

sweeney1971

I think we have a big problem here trying to decide how long the Zombies would exhist for and which part of the World would they last the longest? For example in hot Countries such as the Middle East would they dry out and become brittle and cold climates such as places like Russia would they not be frozen and unable to move?

degrassinoel

sweeney1971 wrote: »

I think we have a big problem here trying to decide how long the Zombies would exhist for and which part of the World would they last the longest? For example in hot Countries such as the Middle East would they dry out and become brittle and cold climates such as places like Russia would they not be frozen and unable to move?

that's not really on topic sweeney, but it would make an excellent topic of it's own.

southcentralts

Some good points there, but do you really think a zombie could last for 10 years?
Remember in physics " energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form"
considering how quickly we run out of energy using only 20% for our brains ( and I imagine less even for our higher cognitive functions which the zombies lose.)

Unless they are renewing their energy resources they will eventually collapse, unable to hunt any longer becoming easy prey for zombie hunters looking to reclaim the world.

Whatever it is that fuels the zombies cannot possibly fuel them forever without breaking the laws of physics.

Zomg Okay

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

all you will need is one Z and you have to potential for another epidemic

There is always a natural immunity somewhere in the human population to each new disease/virus/etc. People with this immunity, if they survive, will pass the immunity to offspring.

If a person with the immunity had a child with someone who didn't, there would be a 50% chance the child would inherit immunity to turning. When that child reproduced, they would pass on the gene regardless of whether or not they were immune themselves.

As a result, the human population would eventually become completely immune to the virus and wouldn't turn when they died. So no, we wouldn't always have the potential for an epidemic. Only while the people not favoured by evolution are still around.

degrassinoel

natural immunity and viral mutation go hand in hand.

Zomg Okay

degrassinoel wrote: »

natural immunity and viral mutation go hand in hand.

Too true. Forgot that aspect. Well, back to the Biology book! :P

degrassinoel

you and me both, I'm just going by what I've seen and read in fiction

Actually, that little ditty itself came from two sources, one being Left4Dead, the other being an excellent remake of a 1970's BBC miniseries called 'Survivors', highly recommend that (the bbc remake, not the american one) btw, great series! No zombies, just viral holocaust and survival thereafter.

Edit: And now i've gone offtopic.. i'm blaming sweeney for that one!

H2UMrsRobinson

degrassinoel wrote: »

Actually, that little ditty itself came from two sources, one being Left4Dead, the other being an excellent remake of a 1970's BBC miniseries called 'Survivors', highly recommend that (the bbc remake, not the american one) btw, great series! No zombies, just viral holocaust and survival thereafter.

Brilliant series. It's on Netflix if anyone should fancy it. We did the whole 2 series in a weekend. Only 12 episodes. Sorry for off topic again.

ScumLord

southcentralts wrote: »

Some good points there, but do you really think a zombie could last for 10 years?

Unlikely. It all depends on the weather, one severe winter would destroy the majority of zombies. I think the zombies would still be active and infectious but the damage done to the body would make them mostly immobile. With Irelands mild weather they could maybe last 2 or 3 years.

Very little can take the constant battering of the weather, even steel won't look all that pretty after ten years of exposer.

degrassinoel

There are exceptions though, even in our climate. All it would take is for one to get locked into a freezer and forgotten about, or fall into a bog and be preserved for thousands of years.. we're talking zombies here, it could happen!

sweeney1971

Sorry everyone to go off topic again! But I have watched the old Survivor series made in the 1970's, it is brilliant and the new series made by the BBC of Survivors excellent as well. No Zombies but a deadly virus.

Sorry really new to posting but can we not have a forum on Zombies, hints and tip's on how to survive amongs them!

degrassinoel

We do sweeney, you've been posting in it for a few days

Dont worry, being new doesnt last long, and we're all human.. mostly.

Zomg Okay

degrassinoel wrote: »

Dont worry, being new doesnt last long, and we're all human.. mostly.

I'd certainly hope we're all human, I'm not ready for an apocalypse. :P

southcentralts

Zomg Okay wrote: »

I'd certainly hope we're all human, I'm not ready for an apocalypse. :P

Field Reporter: Are they slow-moving, chief?
Sheriff McClelland: Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
Field Reporter: Chief, if I were surrounded by eight or ten of these things, would I stand a chance?
Sheriff McClelland: Well, that's no problem, if you got a gun shoot 'em in the head. That's the sure way to kill 'em. If you don't get yourself a club, beat 'em or burn 'em. They go up pretty easy.

ScumLord

degrassinoel wrote: »

There are exceptions though, even in our climate. All it would take is for one to get locked into a freezer and forgotten about, or fall into a bog and be preserved for thousands of years.. we're talking zombies here, it could happen!

The bog is a good point, that would preserve the zombies although I don't know what kind of tissue damage bog preservation would cause. The freezer is unlikely if there's no power plus the extreme cold would do damage to the tissue possibly rendering the zombie immobile if still infectious.

Ireland's weather could help with zombies longevity. The rain will keep them moisturised and lubricated so they don't dry out as fast. Although slippery conditions could see more falls which could lead to more broken bones.

Overall it doesn't really matter, the very act of moving is going to disintegrate a zombie body, their knees will blow out under wear, even constant rain will soak the skin making it heavy and pulling it off the body.

sweeney1971

Good point about the bog's Scumlord, I have two so will keep a good lookout for any unwanted Walkers.
We have a big problem here in Ireland lads when Z day arrives due to the bog's.

southcentralts

the bog would be a good place for preservation but would a zombie not use up all energy trying to escape?
*going outside to build a quicksand trap all around my house*

Zomg Okay

southcentralts wrote: »

the bog would be a good place for preservation but would a zombie not use up all energy trying to escape?
*going outside to build a quicksand trap all around my house*

A zombie doesn't have to consider "energy". A zombie is a mindless machine, it does not tire. It will continue on until it is destroyed.

Of course, it could destroy itself or damage itself enough to prevent it being a threat if it escaped. But it wouldn't run out of energy.

southcentralts

Zomg Okay wrote: »

A zombie doesn't have to consider "energy". A zombie is a mindless machine, it does not tire. It will continue on until it is destroyed.

Of course, it could destroy itself or damage itself enough to prevent it being a threat if it escaped. But it wouldn't run out of energy.

Well that is the whole topic of this thread but are you basing this on any particular film or book?

In my opinion violating the laws of physics would have a much bigger impact than simply the dead rising. Zombies need to be powered by something, be it voodoo, anaerobic digestion or well whatever the T-virus used for fuel.

BigDuffman

Zomg Okay wrote: »

A zombie doesn't have to consider "energy". A zombie is a mindless machine, it does not tire. It will continue on until it is destroyed.

Of course, it could destroy itself or damage itself enough to prevent it being a threat if it escaped. But it wouldn't run out of energy.

Not exactly true. All movements require energy. Your muscles need various sources of energy ATP, glycogen etc. that need to be refueled after use. A mindless machine or not something is needed to fuel contraction of skeletal muscle eg. walking. Z's won't be getting any glycogen in as part of their "diet", there is a very limited supply in the body once this is gone its gone.

A zombies body would enter a catabolic state fairly quickly. Particularly rage z's, which would quickly become shufflers, then crawlers, then em...lie stillers. When the Z's body is catabolic the muscle tissue will be breaking down constantly without being rebuilt by relevant nutrients. Which will result in huge degradation of muscle mass and wastage. Over a few months they will be shambling skeletons.

As other posters have stated however Z's may go dormant. How they can then wake up to a stimulus is beyond me.

And thats without even considering decomposition!

Zomg Okay

I stand corrected then.

Gandalph

Such a complicated discussion even phd students in biology or physics would have trouble with, There is probably a scientific counter argument for every point made! I honestly cant see them living for 5 years + though like I thought I see someone say, sure it only takes a year for a body to fully decompose in a coffin doesnt it? I am not really informed on science but I think if you take into account oxidation (am I using the right word?) in the air and wearing away from friction of shuffling about or touching off things then it might quicken the process.

ScumLord

Gandalph wrote: »

Such a complicated discussion even phd students in biology or physics would have trouble with, There is probably a scientific counter argument for every point made! I honestly cant see them living for 5 years + though like I thought I see someone say, sure it only takes a year for a body to fully decompose in a coffin doesnt it? I am not really informed on science but I think if you take into account oxidation (am I using the right word?) in the air and wearing away from friction of shuffling about or touching off things then it might quicken the process.

I'd agree with you but the real thing that decomposes any body once it dies is the bacteria inside it. The bacteria in all our stomachs that helps us digest food all our lives doesn't die and keeps going turning on the body instead.

The zombie disease is toxic to all living creatures even bacteria so all those bacteria that would have begun the decomposition process die with the host. Wear and tear along with weathering will destroy the body eventually but it will take time. 5 years would probably be the maximum although I would see Ireland as a better environment for preserving zombies. The land is easy enough to traverse without injury, the rain will keep the zombie lubricated and protected from sunlight damage and there's very few animals that would even attempt to stand their ground against human or zombie.

Einhard

I set up another thread about this, but was re-directed here so I'll piggyback on the discussion.

Is it correct then, to state that zombies won't go shuffling along forever? That, should someone be lucky enough to survive the initial onslaught, and manage to hole up securely in some protected location, then they'd be theoretically able to get through the entire infestation?

ScumLord

Einhard wrote: »

I set up another thread about this, but was re-directed here so I'll piggyback on the discussion.

Is it correct then, to state that zombies won't go shuffling along forever? That, should someone be lucky enough to survive the initial onslaught, and manage to hole up securely in some protected location, then they'd be theoretically able to get through the entire infestation?

I'd say so. Nothing can last forever. The only way I could see a zombie lasting for decades or more is if it was preserved somehow. If it's on land or sea it's eventually going to be broken apart through weathering.

BigDuffman

Einhard wrote: »

Is it correct then, to state that zombies won't go shuffling along forever? That, should someone be lucky enough to survive the initial onslaught, and manage to hole up securely in some protected location, then they'd be theoretically able to get through the entire infestation?

No, they won't be shufflin forever. Imagine a person in a coma, even though they have effectively zero levels of activity. They waste away, muscle tissue starts degrading, organs fail etc. This is with a drip / being fed. A zombie would be Active as mentioned in other posts, their bodies would be in a catabolic state, breaking down quicker than if they were dormant (eg. comatose) on account of damages to muscle fiber that is not being rebuilt.

Take into account the effects of exposure and dehydration on the flesh / muscle. Their life span (or dead span) is limited.

But as previous poster mentioned. Buried in ice or slow they may last longer.

degrassinoel

slightly offtopic, but this is great reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophile

ScumLord

BigDuffman wrote: »

No, they won't be shufflin forever. Imagine a person in a coma, even though they have effectively zero levels of activity. They waste away, muscle tissue starts degrading, organs fail etc. This is with a drip / being fed. A zombie would be Active as mentioned in other posts, their bodies would be in a catabolic state, breaking down quicker than if they were dormant (eg. comatose) on account of damages to muscle fiber that is not being rebuilt.

They may not break down quicker in the same way though. A person in a coma is still alive and the body is still administrating where it should be dedicating it's resources. Muscles get smaller because of non use, muscle fibres aren't replaced and the body conserves that energy because it sees no reason to replenish what it's not using. It's the living reaction of the body. That trigger wouldn't be present in zombies so the muscle wouldn't get bigger or smaller, they'd just tear apart.

Jason Todd

What if a zombie was to be completely unharmed, maybe it was originally infected by saliva or blood contamination, would that zombie then last longer unharmed than a zombie that maybe started to rot due to it's infection bite or some other wound?

Also, would how healthy the person was before zombification have an effect on it's preservation as a zombie or would the 'disease' affect all bodies the same way?

ChaseThisLight

Jason Todd wrote: »

What if a zombie was to be completely unharmed, maybe it was originally infected by saliva or blood contamination, would that zombie then last longer unharmed than a zombie that maybe started to rot due to it's infection bite or some other wound?

Also, would how healthy the person was before zombification have an effect on it's preservation as a zombie or would the 'disease' affect all bodies the same way?

I think no matter how healthy you may have been, or if your body was relatively unharmed in death/infection, the result would still be the same: you're going to be dead and rotting.

Also, what degrassinoel said in the other thread is true in a way...it does depend on the zombie. 28 Days Later zombies died of starvation because they were living zombies, humans infected with a virus that made them violent; they were never dead/undead and therefor needed to eat food to live. Romero's zombies do seem to have a slower decaying rate. But The Walking Dead has shown us zombies that have withered considerably (Bicycle Girl is one example).