Non - Apartment Owner (Tenant) and Rights with Landlord and Management Company

seniorolaighin

Hi all,

Looking for some advice on a slightly pressing matter - I'll keep it as short as possible but would appreciate anyones input!

My partner and I have been renting an apartment for the past 3 years - directly through the landlord. In fairness we have had no issues in the apartment really in 3 years and he has very little to do with us which has suited fine. When there is the odd issue - it has been tough to get in contact with him but things usually get resolved.

So, last September got a letter in our letterbox (dropped in by the apartment complex management company) saying clamping of cars was beginning from the following Monday. This notice arrived on a Wednesday, my partner was out of the country for 2 weeks and I was leaving the country on the Thursday for a week. Needless to say I was in a panic; especially since they hadn't sent us our parking permits. So I rang the management company - and they was no way they were giving us our permits. Turns out we were the pawns in their case of getting unresolved management fees from the owners of the apartment. Bottom line: I gave the management company director a bollicking over the phone with how we were being treated etc. and also got in contact with the landlord....within an hour the whole thing was sorted (in that our permits arrived that evening). Just to note - clamping never came in.

So - last Friday got home from work to find a letter dropped in again saying the clamping was going ahead from this Friday at 7pm and inside were our parking permits. Turns out there were no parking permits in the letter so contacted the management company today - who politely informed us 'they don't deal with tenants' - which seems a bit rich considering they put a letter in our post box and said contact them if there are any issues. It seems to me that it is that time of year again for fees....and this is their way of getting them. I haven't called the landlord yet but I'm just wondering do I as a tenant have any rights in this situation with 3 different parties? I'm tempted to call the management company's bluff.........is there any agency someone can report these companies to? I understand completely they need their fees - but I completely resent being used in any manner.

Thanks in advance and hopefully someone can shed light!!!!

Paulw

In short, your contract is with your landlord. It is up to your landlord to provide you with parking permits. It is up to the management agent, acting on behalf of the management company (which your landlord is a member of) to issue parking permits.

The management agent doesn't have to deal with you at all.

You can be clamped if you don't have permits, but any de-clamping fee should be recovered from your landlord, since he/she has not provided you with the parking permits.

UDP

Make sure you are passing on such post to the landlord. That may be expressly written in your contract.

seniorolaighin

Thanks - actually no post for our landlord in about 12months. And that was actually from the management company looking for fees. We informed him the post had arrived and after no collection after 6 months we opened it to see what it was. He still never collected it though! Out of our lease for the past 2 years - which suits as hoping to buy soon all going well.

Paulw

Your landlord has a legal obligation to provide the management agent with his correct contact details (address, etc).

Sounds like he is not paying his management fees on time.

seniorolaighin

Good to know that - thanks again!

djimi

The management agent doesnt have to, and usually wont, deal directly with a tenant, but I find that if you have an issue and if you call then ten times a day they pretty quickly come to the realisation that its easier just to deal with me and sort the problem rather than trying to go through my landlord (who lives in the US)!

In that case it really is an issue between you and the landlord though (or more specifically, between the landlord and the management company) and you are just stuck in the middle.

Lantus

Only the owner of the property (in this case your Landlord) has any legal relationship with the OMC.

All owners are shareholders in the company and can vote and become directors if they wish subject to procedures.

Your relationship is to the Landlord only but there is no harm in trying to discuss things with the OMC as you have done.

Ultimatey you can up and leave if life is made hard which directly affects the landlord so it's in his best interests to pay up.

It's a hard sad fact that many landlords and non occupier owners dont pay their fee's and often seem to get away with it. OMC's have limited recourse but to resort to things like clamping. Directors are legally bound to pay for insurance, repairs and the like which cost money. Landlords expect it but often dont like the idea of having to pay for it.

Webster29

I had a similar thing happen to me last year. What really bothered me is that I felt the management company were using tenants to hassle property owners, ie they were threatening me so that I would, presumably, get worried and in turn threaten the landlord. A rep called to my door at 10pm at night with a notice saying "Let your landlord know you got this." The notice said clamping would commence the following Monday.

This is not acceptable and, knowing my rights, I told them so. He knew I was a tenant, knew this had nothing to do with me, so why was he standing at my door? I don't owe them money, I don't have any relationship with them (works both ways) and if they clamped my car I would consider it extortion - seizure of my property to force payment of a debt I did not owe. I followed it up with a formal complaint to the office of the managing agent, who had sent the notice on behalf of the managment company. I never got a reply, but nor did I get clamped.

I really resent the way tenants are treated in this country, and this is just more of it. Tenants are now pawns. They're not easy targets. More tenants should know their rights (and their obligations - again it works both ways) and should assert them.

OP, in my case the non-payment of the management fee was the first hint that the landlord was in financial trouble. Six months later we received notice of appointment of receiver over the apartment. Not saying yours is going this way, but could be a sign.

I accept that management charges have to be paid. I accept that this can be difficult. The correct approach is to sue the apartment owner. Not to hassle third parties. Not to seize the property of strangers to you. Worse still, not to threaten to seize their property with the intention of scaring them into threatening the landlord on your behalf.

athtrasna

The issue of permits is absolutely between you and your landlord. You as a tenant have no rights to any contact with the management company and as for "calling their bluff" it will only backfire big time. You have no right to any contact with the management company. Only your landlord is responsible for your experience in the area.

jd

As an aside, has anyone heard of an OMC obtaining a garnishee order where a landlord won't pay the service charges?

Del2005

Webster29 wrote: »

I had a similar thing happen to me last year. What really bothered me is that I felt the management company were using tenants to hassle property owners, ie they were threatening me so that I would, presumably, get worried and in turn threaten the landlord. A rep called to my door at 10pm at night with a notice saying "Let your landlord know you got this." The notice said clamping would commence the following Monday.

This is not acceptable and, knowing my rights, I told them so. He knew I was a tenant, knew this had nothing to do with me, so why was he standing at my door? I don't owe them money, I don't have any relationship with them (works both ways) and if they clamped my car I would consider it extortion - seizure of my property to force payment of a debt I did not owe. I followed it up with a formal complaint to the office of the managing agent, who had sent the notice on behalf of the managment company. I never got a reply, but nor did I get clamped.

I really resent the way tenants are treated in this country, and this is just more of it. Tenants are now pawns. They're not easy targets. More tenants should know their rights (and their obligations - again it works both ways) and should assert them.

OP, in my case the non-payment of the management fee was the first hint that the landlord was in financial trouble. Six months later we received notice of appointment of receiver over the apartment. Not saying yours is going this way, but could be a sign.

I accept that management charges have to be paid. I accept that this can be difficult. The correct approach is to sue the apartment owner. Not to hassle third parties. Not to seize the property of strangers to you. Worse still, not to threaten to seize their property with the intention of scaring them into threatening the landlord on your behalf.

The problem here is that if your landlord isn't paying the fee then no one in the apartment is entitled to access the complex. If you didn't pay your rent on time I'm sure you're landlord would be quick to find out why. It's the same with management companies, they have to get their fees to maintain the complex and unfortunately your landlord isn't paying it or providing contact details.

If the management fee isn't paid and you get clamped it's not the management company to blame, it's your irresponsible landlord and they are the ones to recoup your clamping release fee and any other expenses due to you having no access to your vehicle.

Edit
Did you pass on your contact details for your landlord to the management company? It would stop them calling in.

omega666

You could just cut the clamp off every time they clamp your car.
Without damaging it of course. Absolutly noting they can do about it and the clamping company will get the message eventually and leave you alone.
Espically if a few of their clamps start disappearing in the night and it starts costing them money.

A bit rich the management company dont want anything to do with you yet
they have no problem using you as the pawn to wrangle the management fee's from your landlord.

athtrasna

The other thing to make sure is that parking is detailed in your lease. If it's not, the landlord has an out.

Webster29

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem here is that if your landlord isn't paying the fee then no one in the apartment is entitled to access the complex. If you didn't pay your rent on time I'm sure you're landlord would be quick to find out why. It's the same with management companies, they have to get their fees to maintain the complex and unfortunately your landlord isn't paying it or providing contact details.

If the management fee isn't paid and you get clamped it's not the management company to blame, it's your irresponsible landlord and they are the ones to recoup your clamping release fee and any other expenses due to you having no access to your vehicle.

Edit
Did you pass on your contact details for your landlord to the management company? It would stop them calling in.

I realise the problem is the landlord. But it was not the tenant's problem. The management company were making it my problem but had no right to do so.

Usually the buyer in an apartment complex receives a licence to the use of a car park space. This licence is irrevocable by reason of being coupled with the interest in the apartment. The management company usually reserves the right to move the space but not to revoke the right of access entirely - the licence and the apartment are bought and paid for. That right is passed to a tenant under the short term lease agreement.The same logic goes for access to the complex in general. The ongoing annual service charge is a completely different issue. That is a simple debt. The answer is for the management company is to sue the apartment owner. Leave the tenants out of it.

Caseywhale

My brother lives in a complex where they would clamp your granny if she stood still long enough. He and another guy started going around every night and squirting superglue into every clamps lock they found. After a month the clampers don't clamp there anymore. And the management can't get any other campers to start clamping either as they know it's just too much cost to them.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

The issue of permits is absolutely between you and your landlord. You as a tenant have no rights to any contact with the management company and as for "calling their bluff" it will only backfire big time. You have no right to any contact with the management company. Only your landlord is responsible for your experience in the area.

Of course you have a right to contact the management company; dont be ridiculous. They also have a right to ignore you if they choose, but if something has gone wrong with the complex such as a fault building hall light or the gates not working then Im hardly going to go through my landlord to get it fixed when a simple phone call to the management company can address the issue much quicker.

This attitude that tenants have no rights in the complex they live in is tiresome to be honest.

djimi

Caseywhale wrote: »

My brother lives in a complex where they would clamp your granny if she stood still long enough. He and another guy started going around every night and squirting superglue into every clamps lock they found. After a month the clampers don't clamp there anymore. And the management can't get any other campers to start clamping either as they know it's just too much cost to them.

Did that not just make the situation a whole lot worse for those who had been clamped and needed their car back in a hurry?

djimi

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem here is that if your landlord isn't paying the fee then no one in the apartment is entitled to access the complex. If you didn't pay your rent on time I'm sure you're landlord would be quick to find out why. It's the same with management companies, they have to get their fees to maintain the complex and unfortunately your landlord isn't paying it or providing contact details.

If the management fee isn't paid and you get clamped it's not the management company to blame, it's your irresponsible landlord and they are the ones to recoup your clamping release fee and any other expenses due to you having no access to your vehicle.

Edit
Did you pass on your contact details for your landlord to the management company? It would stop them calling in.

The legality of this is something that really needs to get looked at. As a tenant it is absolutely none of my business or concern to know the financial situation or standing of my landlord, and if they are in financial trouble (with anyone) then in no way should it come back on me. If the landlord isnt paying their management fees then why on earth should their tenant, who probably knows absolutely nothing of the situation, be punished for this? How is it right that they can come down some morning and find their car clamped for something that is entirely out of their control?

In the case of the OP the situation in question is between the landlord and the management company; it has absolutely nothing to do with the tenant. Its absolutely disgusting that the management company is allowed to impose penalties on the tenant for something that they have nothing to do with.

Thoie

Webster29 wrote: »

I had a similar thing happen to me last year. What really bothered me is that I felt the management company were using tenants to hassle property owners, ie they were threatening me so that I would, presumably, get worried and in turn threaten the landlord. A rep called to my door at 10pm at night with a notice saying "Let your landlord know you got this." The notice said clamping would commence the following Monday.

The problem in cases like this is that the landlord is using the property you're living in as his registered address with the management company. Therefore all correspondence (and debt collectors) will go to your address.

Kimura

Send a letter or email to you landlord, Telling them that any cost of being clamped will come out of the rent, also you are paid X amount per hour, any missed time working due to being clamped will also come out of the rent.

I would not bother with the Management Company, let you landlord handle that, and Inform them of what happens if you get clamped. I'm sure once it hits their pocket they will do something about it,

Ray Palmer

I think you will find the person parking must display a valid parking permit. If you do not do so you can be clamped. As the LL is not parking there it is the tenant breaking the rule.
The LL has the responsibility to provide the permit but by parking regardless the tenant is responsible and liable. Like it or not that is the way it is. Take it from the rent and then you still owe the LL. the same way if the tenant damages the public areas the tenant pays not the LL

Caseywhale

djimi wrote: »

Did that not just make the situation a whole lot worse for those who had been clamped and needed their car back in a hurry?

Not really. His car was one of them. They have to cut the lock off with a bolt cutter for you on the spot. Every clamper has one. They are not allowed to leave you clamped once you pay.

paul_ire57

Interesting reading this thread. Ill add my twist to things. Im a landlord and have tenants who have cars.

And like the OP ive been given letters that they are now going to introduce clamping if all the fees arent paid up to date.

So previously while I was out of work in the doom and gloom from 2008-2010 I built up arrears. Since 2010 Ive paid my service fees over the course of the years.

Ive sent an email to the management saying that i will commit to paying 400 a month by direct debit until the fees are cleared. They came back and told me that i would have to pay 3k upfront and then commit to clearing the rest of the fees by the end of the year.

So like most people ( or maybe not like most people ) i dont have 3k sitting around burning a hole in my pocket to do this and feel that they are being reasonable with this request.

I dont want to lose the tenants as they are very good, keep the place well and are responsible and shouldnt be brought into the equation about me trying to repay my fees.

What options do i have?

Paulw

paul_ire57 wrote: »

Ive sent an email to the management saying that i will commit to paying 400 a month by direct debit until the fees are cleared. They came back and told me that i would have to pay 3k upfront and then commit to clearing the rest of the fees by the end of the year.

So like most people ( or maybe not like most people ) i dont have 3k sitting around burning a hole in my pocket to do this and feel that they are being reasonable with this request.

What options do i have?

You've built up arrears of over 3k??? Sorry, no sympathy at all for you. You're renting the place out, so if you haven't factored in management fees it's your own mistake.

Your options?? Pay your fees, or else end up paying the declamping fee each time your tenants are clamped.

Or, rent out your apt without any of the services that the management company provide, such as the parking facilities.

Thoie

paul_ire57 wrote: »

Interesting reading this thread. Ill add my twist to things. Im a landlord and have tenants who have cars.

And like the OP ive been given letters that they are now going to introduce clamping if all the fees arent paid up to date.

So previously while I was out of work in the doom and gloom from 2008-2010 I built up arrears. Since 2010 Ive paid my service fees over the course of the years.

Ive sent an email to the management saying that i will commit to paying 400 a month by direct debit until the fees are cleared. They came back and told me that i would have to pay 3k upfront and then commit to clearing the rest of the fees by the end of the year.

So like most people ( or maybe not like most people ) i dont have 3k sitting around burning a hole in my pocket to do this and feel that they are being reasonable with this request.

I dont want to lose the tenants as they are very good, keep the place well and are responsible and shouldnt be brought into the equation about me trying to repay my fees.

What options do i have?

Is there any chance you'd be able to take out a loan for the full amount owed, with the €400 per month repayments?

I understand you think the management company are being unreasonable, but bear in mind, you're a member of the management company. If they need that money to keep the company going (ie, keep paying for cleaning, lift maintenance, bins, insurance), and if there's a few people who owe money, the company would end up having to take out a loan to cover day to day running costs. This is not something many management companies can do, and even if they can, the cost of the loan gets landed on everyone in the complex.

paul_ire57

Long story but short answer is highly unlikely and certainly not within the timeframe the mgmt company are looking to get the clampers into the area.

While out of work, along with mgmt fee arrears, mortgage had some arrears and interest only period that I have been working to pay back so I reckon bank will want that paid back before i get a loan from them and so theres 3k left on that at the moment. Funeral of parent earlier this year took what savings I had

I do understand that they need the money for services etc and am willing to pay 400 a month which is 20% of my salary after tax to try to reach an arrangement
but have no chance of coming up with 3k.

paul_ire57

Paulw wrote: »

You've built up arrears of over 3k??? Sorry, no sympathy at all for you. You're renting the place out, so if you haven't factored in management fees it's your own mistake.

Wasnt looking for sympathy just something more constructive than the obvious pay the fees answer. And factoring in mgmt fees into rent, in an area with lots of apts, makes renting it out completely uncompetitive and so i would lose more money in the long run.

Thoie

paul_ire57 wrote: »

Long story but short answer is highly unlikely and certainly not within the timeframe the mgmt company are looking to get the clampers into the area.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest making an appointment with MABS to help you look at all the arrears. Even though the management company have rejected your €400 a month offer, I'd go ahead and pay that anyway, and continue paying it religiously, so that if it ever get to the stage of legal proceedings, you could prove that you've been trying to pay them to the best of your ability.

paul_ire57

Yes ill be requesting to set it up anyway and go from there. I know the fact that ive made the offer and if i pay that and then down the road if it does go further I have made every effort possible to help bring down the arrears

To be honest, the only arrears I have are the mortgage and the mgmt fees. I have an agreement recently reached with the bank re the arrears and I have 1 cc with 650 euro limit and 500 on it so im not in bad shape, just again dont have the 3k they are looking for me to stump up immediately for the permits.

athtrasna

Am I missing something? €400 a month is €4800 in the year? What MC would turn that down for arrears of €3,000??

As for the people talking about the MC taking landlord issues out on tenants. It's not personal I would imagine. The MC don't care who lives in the unit be it landlord or tenant as long as fees are paid. If they are not paid, services are withdrawn from the unit, regardless of whether it's owner occupied or rented out. If clamping is being brought in as a way of trying to collect funds, it won't have been done lightly. Management fees cover essential services and owners sign legal documents committing to sign them. It's unfortunate that tenants can get caught in the middle but that is between the tenant and landlord.

The irony of the whole thing is management fees are wholly tax deductible for landlords but not for owner occupiers - so it makes my blood boil when landlords don't pay fees. I know in our development, the problem payers are all landlords.

Marcusm

paul_ire57 wrote: »

Yes ill be requesting to set it up anyway and go from there. I know the fact that ive made the offer and if i pay that and then down the road if it does go further I have made every effort possible to help bring down the arrears

To be honest, the only arrears I have are the mortgage and the mgmt fees. I have an agreement recently reached with the bank re the arrears and I have 1 cc with 650 euro limit and 500 on it so im not in bad shape, just again dont have the 3k they are looking for me to stump up immediately for the permits.

The managing agent rather than management company is the one who has rejected it and I, for one, think they're incredibly stupid to have done so. Een if the annual charge is €3k, your monthly offer is a genuine attempt to settle and to clear arrears. These companies need cash flow and while they should reject derisory offers, yours was not one.

I have property fees to pay in Irelad ad the UK. In the UK, there are more remedies for the tenant to deal with bad management (my record tribunal was 13 days of hearings, although I wasn't part of he dispute) and also to deal with bad apartment owners - threaten to forfeit the apartment and the bank will pay up if the owner doesn't.

RATM

My next door (tenant) neighbour had the same problem as the OP- the mgmt co were using him as as a proxy to do debt collecting duties on his landlord.

I have a parking permit and he asked me for a lend of it for 24 hours. The permit itself is the most amateurish effort one could imagine- a blue disc with 'Apartment No.X' printed on it. So he went down to Reads in Nassau Street and got the exact same shade of blue card/art paper and then brought it home and printed Apartment No. X on it in the exact same font and size as the mgmt company had.

That was a year ago and the clampers have been around many times since- they always come between 3 and 5am and have clamped several other neighbours for parking in visitor spots (which are closer to their door than the allocated spot. They have never clamped his car with the faked permit in it and are none the wiser.

UDP

athtrasna wrote: »

Am I missing something? €400 a month is €4800 in the year? What MC would turn that down for arrears of €3,000??

The poster said they wanted €3k up front and pay the remaining before year end. So it could be €5k or €10k owed.