Why don’t powerful individuals have to pay for economic recklessness in Ireland?

golfwallah

Whatever about politics and the “cute hoor” culture, one could argue that moral hazard is the main reason for Ireland's economic woes.

Economist Paul Krugman describes moral hazard as "any situation in which one person makes the decision about how much risk to take, while someone else bears the cost if things go badly".

The Irish economic landscape is littered with situations where risks have been taken by parties in powerful positions and at different levels (from individuals to corporations and eventually Government), who did not have to bear the costs of their mistakes. These powerful people (no matter how well qualified and well paid) could afford to be reckless with their decisions, knowing in advance that someone other than themselves (e.g. the taxpayer) would pick up the tab.

Following the referendum, Government, is now obliged by law to live within the terms of the Fiscal Compact.

But what, if anything, has been done to guard against moral hazard by senior people in Government, the public service and private enterprise?

So far, those responsible for the massive banking mistakes and state overspending have gotten away very lightly. Aside for a bit of negative publicity and losing their jobs, they have been compensated rewarded with massive pay offs, without any risk to their pensions and other private property.

Isn’t it about time that we the voters demanded changes to peoples’ contracts, whereby they would have to suffer somewhat more severe consequences than being pensioned off to live in luxury for the rest of their lives?

Any views?

woodoo

There seems to be no appetite to go after these people. Some rich people who owe the state/banks/us money are transferring assets into their wife's names to avoid paying their share. Seems nothing can be done to stop it.

People are almost ridiculed for suggesting taxing the rich. People like Denis O'Brien are able to avoid paying their tax here and nobody is putting them under any real pressure to do otherwise. Not the papers (especially not the indo) nor the media in general.

The truth is they have an easy time of it in Ireland. No sign of any bankers getting hauled before the courts. No sign of any politicians who may have done wrong being investigated either. It truly is a sad state of affairs. The Gardai have a lot to answer for too. They don't seem to be investigating anything much to do with what has been done to this country.

Damien360

woodoo wrote: »

The truth is they have an easy time of it in Ireland. No sign of any bankers getting hauled before the courts. No sign of any politicians who may have done wrong being investigated either. It truly is a sad state of affairs. The Gardai have a lot to answer for too. They don't seem to be investigating anything much to do with what has been done to this country.

In defense of the gardai, the serfs at the lower levels are completely obliged to follow the orders of their superiors. Even for the higher levels this is true. The buck has to stop with Enda and his club.

I can remember a picture of Enda playing golf at the K-Club with some very wealthy friends before he got elected as leader. These same friends were also close to the outgoing shower of crooks.

golfwallah

They say politicians only ever react when enough people demand change and keep demanding it.

But do we have to wait until it gets as bad as Iceland or Greece before people start to protest in a serious way to their TDs about stuff like accountability and transparency?

In RTE 1’s “Money, Money, Money” programme last night, comedian, Nick Clarke took a light hearted look at our current situation that contained more than a grain of truth. Potted summary as follows:

• We had Shane Ross putting it all down to “cronyism” and Fintan O’Toole talking about atavism for property ownership going back to the land war of the 1800s.

• Another commentator blamed it on a form of adolescence where people wanted to believe that the good times would last forever (with Bertie telling people protesting to commit suicide). What eventually happened was a very rude and sudden growing up.

• Then we had Patrick Neary telling us that the Irish banks are well capitalised and very resilient.

• Footage of legacy management from old regimes in banks still in charge.

• David McWilliams: Isn’t that like saying everyone is responsible, so no one is responsible, i.e. no one takes the rap, which is the only way we can learn from mistakes.

• Mick Wallace: over-reverence of authority and unwillingness to protest. “Joe the trucker” ended up before the courts within a day of dumping load of cement at the gate of Leinster House. Wouldn’t happen to a banker or politician. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas – people have to demand change.

• Richard Boyd Barrett on socialism 2012 style – not like China & Russia – I wonder?

Dannyboy83

I was thinking about this after reading some of the extracts from Dan Boyle's book in the Examiner, where he stated Brian Lenihan didn't even seem to consider the possibility of financial penalties against Rody Molloy, and said in his opinion, they were heavily rewarded.

Our legal system is largely inherited from Britain.
These people can be punished or at least held accountable in Britain, under the British legal system.
So why is it, that the Irish legal system is unable to tackle these people?

Is the Irish legal system the problem?
Or is corruption the problem?

If the legal system is the problem, why has it fallen so far behind the British system?
If corruption is the problem, then why can the legal system not be applied to tackle this corruption?

Humans eh!

Because this country is rotten to the core.

The sheep might perceive the shepherd to be an asshole.
But he is an asshole with a crook and an obedient dog at his command.

I have literally given up caring.

Frankie Lee

Don't forget JP McManus admitted that he might be an Anglo Irish Bank bondholder and along with other members of the coolmore mafia were reported as being behind the bank guarantee scheme at the time.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=6048

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33424&p=438903

NakedNNettles

golfwallah wrote: »

• Mick Wallace: over-reverence of authority and unwillingness to protest. “Joe the trucker” ended up before the courts within a day of dumping load of cement at the gate of Leinster House. Wouldn’t happen to a banker or politician. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas – people have to demand change.

Funny that you should mention Mick Wallace, the cutest of them all I might add, giving off the impression that he is so down with the public when he couldn't be any further removed.

Fact is that he is the same as the rest of the elite, he owes millions and we as taxpayers are bailing him out, he dosen't fool me with his crumpled pink t-shirt and populist outbursts condemning the previous regime. After all, he is one of the ones who put us all in this mess, now he is trying camoflage himself as one of the many afflicted within this country, a wolf in sheep's clothing if you will, amazing what can be achieved with a little dressing down.

Funny that you should mention turkeys, the people of Wexford voted Mick Wallace into power, turkeys don't vote for christmas indeed, only for stooges it seems.

AlekSmart

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

.

Is the Irish legal system the problem?
Or is corruption the problem?

If the legal system is the problem, why has it fallen so far behind the British system?
If corruption is the problem, then why can the legal system not be applied to tackle this corruption?

Oh Dannyboy,those are pertinent questions indeed,but to answer them in any meaningful way requires us to gaze inwards,and that just is'nt what we do...except of course if there's an evil Colonial Ruler to be implicated in some way.

I suspect that what has mainstream Ireland really scrambling for breath this time is the absence of "The Ould Enemy",upon which the entire blame process could be unloaded.

That absence of a Britannic Majesty to dump upon has resulted in,what I consider to be,a somewhat unfair and shortsighted campaign of,almost,Hate against Germany and anything Germanic.

I'm afraid Dannyboy,the current situation is the coming-of-age of the Irish Republic and, for many of us,that coming-of-age is proving to be a painful process indeed.

Responsibility,in Irish, just does'nt have a nice ring to it...Freagracht.....almost sounds a bit Teutonic :eek:

creedp

AlekSmart wrote: »

That absence of a Britannic Majesty to dump upon has resulted in,what I consider to be,a somewhat unfair and shortsighted campaign of,almost,Hate against Germany and anything Germanic.

Don't worry nothing could cause enough hate for 'middle Ireland'; 'get up and go people'; the productive/wealth creating class', to give up their Audi's/BMW/Mercs!!

Icepick

Government intervention is the reason.
People give the government too much power expecting it will take care of them when they cock up and are they surprised when it does that.

golfwallah

Indeed, all the issues raised by previous posters are inter-connected. Just as in a family, when some members behave in a selfish way, it affects everyone else. It’s the same with any social grouping - political, public or private sector.

Officially, we elect politicians, who form governments to run the country in the best interests of all. But somewhere along the line, politicians allow themselves to be lead by the rich and powerful.

Ireland, along with many other countries, in reality, seems to be run by a network of powerful interests, unaccountable to anyone. When these people mess up, Celtic Tiger style, we all have to pay the price for a very long time.

Yes, we do employ the best and expensive people, but then they have operated in a climate of secrecy. This secrecy and lack of transparency prevent the ordinary voter understanding what’s really going on – to quote George Bernard Shaw, “all professions are conspiracies against the laity”. That being said, the more open style of the current financial regulator is to be welcomed.

One exception to countries being run by cabals is, perhaps, post economic crash Iceland, where some attempt is being made to bring senior political figures to account and to manage their affairs in a more socially inclusive way. The jury is still out on how on how well this innovative approach will work.

As for Ireland, the only ones being held accountable are the ordinary Joe Soaps who bought into the disgraceful dreams of home ownership (moral hazard, etc.), cheap credit and having enough left to feed and educate their children.

Seems we really do have a two tier society where concepts of moral hazard are applicable to everyone, except the rich and powerful, and guess what, we are all taking it lying down.

Aside from crying into our pints, why don’t people do what is needed to change this status quo for the select few? What does it take to change things for the better? Is it possible and why do people just shrug their shoulders and give up?

Drumpot

In a nutshell, the single biggest problem is how people vote in this country . . The actions of the few have caused serious pain for the actions of the many, but even in the face of bankruptcy our electorate still votes for the same self vested, greedy, snivelling individuals who care only about furthering their own parties interests over taking decisive action to fix the country!

That aside, I would class the financial regulator, previous government, banks and the EU all a huge player in what happened in Ireland. There was no moral hazzard for any of them in relation to the damage they caused. I dont think being voted out of power is that bad when you can retire handsomly. The regulator got to retire to the U.S. without ANY real relative pain to the disasterous job he did (hope he burns in hell). The banks got a blank cheque for being bad boys but we got a couple of lazy soundbites attacking them. And our good friends in the EU (AKA Germany) forced us to guarantee private business losses (as they are forcing Spain to do) because their own banks had huge liabilities in our banks and while they were happy getting handsome interest on this money when the going was good , they didnt like the thought of taking big losses . . .

What is funny about the bailout to the banks is that it actually protected savers more then people with loans/labilities (the people who get attacked by uneducated PC warriors who are lucky enough not to be in debt) because had the banks been allowed to go under, all savers would of lost their funds.

I personally dont believe the electorate (another powerful party to the problem) has learned little from what happened. I said it at the last election and will say it again, thinking that anybody but FF would be a step up was the stupidest reason for voting for a specific party. We voted in the failed opposition of the most unsuccessful government in the history of the state. Oh, but sure we had no alternative, right ? wrong, plenty of independents were voted in and some people actually voted for the candidate, not specifically the party. Voting against a great politician because they are in a specific party is so stupid its not funny. If we all voted for good, honest and reliable candidates who promised to do whats best for our country (not our individual area), we would have a greater potential for a prosperous country in the long run.

People need to be educated and politics needs to be a part of the curriculam in school. People need to be forced (yes I said it) to engage in politics because it effects us all. In the last election only 30% of the people voted in our leader . . 30% . . I dont care if this is common everywhere else in the world, you dont benchmark yourself against the average if you want to excel. . We need to be a more proactive nation in trying to surpass the benchmark in everything, as opposed to be happy to be compared to it.

I voted for a local independent who only got a couple of hundred votes . . Why ? As a protest . . I believe in voting for the least worst candidate if you dont like the ones on the ballot paper. That way you willl always be represented even if your man doesnt get in.

golfwallah

Drumpot wrote: »

In a nutshell, the single biggest problem is how people vote in this country . . The actions of the few have caused serious pain for the actions of the many, but even in the face of bankruptcy our electorate still votes for the same self vested, greedy, snivelling individuals who care only about furthering their own parties interests over taking decisive action to fix the country!

I personally dont believe the electorate (another powerful party to the problem) has learned little from what happened. I said it at the last election and will say it again, thinking that anybody but FF would be a step up was the stupidest reason for voting for a specific party. We voted in the failed opposition of the most unsuccessful government in the history of the state. Oh, but sure we had no alternative, right ? wrong, plenty of independents were voted in and some people actually voted for the candidate, not specifically the party. Voting against a great politician because they are in a specific party is so stupid its not funny. If we all voted for good, honest and reliable candidates who promised to do whats best for our country (not our individual area), we would have a greater potential for a prosperous country in the long run.

People need to be educated and politics needs to be a part of the curriculam in school. People need to be forced (yes I said it) to engage in politics because it effects us all. In the last election only 30% of the people voted in our leader . . 30% .

I agree with most of what you say, but personally, I'd never vote for an independent as it's very difficult for any of them to get things done, other than looking out for local interests.

That being said, it would appear that people are getting fed up with the current FG/Labour government indecision and inaction in getting us out of the current mess and moving forward.

Maybe we are seeing a gap in the political market for a new party that identifies with most peoples' core beliefs and values and that has the will to make things happen a lot quicker.

Or then again, maybe FG should dump Labour and join up with FF, with whom they share a lot more values. This eventuality might happen a lot quicker, if the prospect of a new political party were to emerge.

Drumpot

golfwallah wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say, but personally, I'd never vote for an independent as it's very difficult for any of them to get things done, other than looking out for local interests.

That being said, it would appear that people are getting fed up with the current FG/Labour government indecision and inaction in getting us out of the current mess and moving forward.

Maybe we are seeing a gap in the political market for a new party that identifies with most peoples' core beliefs and values and that has the will to make things happen a lot quicker.

Or then again, maybe FG should dump Labour and join up with FF, with whom they share a lot more values. This eventuality might happen a lot quicker, if the prospect of a new political party were to emerge.

Yeh, I know what you mean about independents, but if you have enough good independents, they can assist in changing the ethos of politics. Its extremely hard to change a party, particularly when carpetbaggers and the cute hooers are always drawn to ones who can get them into power (including independents in all fairness!).

I still think that creating a new party might not be the solution we need. I think the problem is deep routed in Irish Psyche and we need to face up to our collective national shortcomings. Media and propaganda seems to be possibly the most important medium for informing and "educating" (used loosly as in politics they dont educate, they try to indoctrine), which would suggest to me that its the best way to try to force people into voting for better politicians. I thought up an idea (that I subsequently found through googling had already been tried and lost traction) aboutrating politicians and parties. It would be based on what they said and did during elections (promises broken etc). Then, more importantly it would judge answers they give (or dont really give) in relation to important questions.

E.G.

Q - Why hasnt there been proper reform of Politicians pay and more importantly their expenses. Irish TDs get paid more then countries in equivilant or even less financial trouble then we find ourselves in.
A - Well, we did take a 10% paycut . . Waffle waffle . . We have butlers and extra houses to cover . . Waffle waffle . . summarised into "we will pay ourselves as much as we can before the gravy train ends, so take your question and go F**k yourself".

Then you have a poll asking "In relation to the politicians answer how did you find this answer:

a) Acceptbable, understandable,fair and clear
b) You felt that didnt answer the question
c) The answer was completely unnaceptable
d) You dont know what they were talking about

Anything other then a is a negative and you can say that only x% of people found your answer in anway acceptable and fair!


Now there would of course be teething problems with some trying to sabotage it for their own end, but with tweaking you could have something credible (you would try to encourage thousands to participate). If it was implemented with something like Boards.ie in partner with it, I believe it could try to be some sort of moral compass to judge our politicians on. the key is that it has to be independent, non party representitive and funded by volunteers and individuals (no corporate donations).

Politicians in this country (the ones I have met) have very little connection with the people they claim to serve. The only thing they understand is votes and media coverage. If the media started to quote this source it could be a powerful tool in forcing morals and ethics into politics. Even if this only forced dodgy gits to do the right thing (even if they didnt want to) it would begin a process of purging politics of the filth we are offered each election.

Imagine a media source saying "An taoiseach, in a poll in the moral compass website, thousands of people just dont accept that you are communicating clearly and decisively with them. Many believe that they represent the voice of many Irish people dissilusioned with politics in Ireland. So can you please answer this question again . . ."

You will get some cute f**kers trying to piggy back on this website in support , but more importantly you will get the right kind of people interested in politics (I myself would be interested in it if it wasnt such a cesspit of disgusting tactics employed by so many involved in it).

Manach

Perhaps too much belief in the political system can significantly change long term economic conditions and that the political classes used the seemingly bottomless support of tax-payer money to buy elections. Bread and circuses.
Taxes are now being imposed on homes so as to keep the upper and lower sections of society quiescent in the hopes that something will turn up - which has the added bonus for the state of squeezing the property owning classes into a more pliable form, beholding even more to the largess of the State to survive once the "wealth" that is house ownership is confiscated.

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

thinking that anybody but FF would be a step up was the stupidest reason for voting for a specific party. We voted in the failed opposition of the most unsuccessful government in the history of the state.

Your whole post is pretty much off topic but I thought I'd pull you up on this. The current government is a definite step up from FF. there aren't weekly scandals distracting from the running of the country, they are implementing budget cuts and trying to renegotiate debts and raise money through sales of public bodies for capital investment, and our leader is no longer an embarrassment on the international stage in either appearance or demeanour. FF were a defeated party, rocked by scandal and battered by failures. What FG needed (or Labour) was a stronger mandate to form a single party government and effect change faster. Your appraisal of the current government is unfair and overly pessimistic.

If you think they wouldve gone after the rich, SF style, then you were confusing them with SF.

With regards the OP, the rich are difficult to touch as their wealth and skills are mobile. With regard punishing the wealthy who engaged in fraud and corporate negligence I think we can all agree progress is far too slow. Pensions need to be contingent on performance too.

ardmacha

Taxes are now being imposed on homes so as to keep the upper and lower sections of society quiescent in the hopes that something will turn up - which has the added bonus for the state of squeezing the property owning classes into a more pliable form, beholding even more to the largess of the State to survive once the "wealth" that is house ownership is confiscated.

Balderdash. Complete over-analysis! Taxes are being imposed on homes because the transaction taxes on property formerly used to fund to exchequer are no longer available and are now recognised as not being a sustainable model in any case. It isn't complicated and other societies with such taxes have not collapse nor did Ireland for the last 100 years when it had such taxes for most of this time.

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

Your whole post is pretty much off topic but I thought I'd pull you up on this. The current government is a definite step up from FF. there aren't weekly scandals distracting from the running of the country, they are implementing budget cuts and trying to renegotiate debts and raise money through sales of public bodies for capital investment, and our leader is no longer an embarrassment on the international stage in either appearance or demeanour. FF were a defeated party, rocked by scandal and battered by failures. What FG needed (or Labour) was a stronger mandate to form a single party government and effect change faster. Your appraisal of the current government is unfair and overly pessimistic.

If you think they wouldve gone after the rich, SF style, then you were confusing them with SF.

With regards the OP, the rich are difficult to touch as their wealth and skills are mobile. With regard punishing the wealthy who engaged in fraud and corporate negligence I think we can all agree progress is far too slow. Pensions need to be contingent on performance too.

You give our current government far too much credit for policies they only implemented (not policies they came up with). .

Anything remotely prudent that has been done by this government was either something that FF have put in place or more then often something that the IMF/EU bailout deal has forced them to do.

I dont have any time for FF like the next person, but whate exactly has FG/Lab done that was their own idea and their own policy ? Any prudent measures or cost savings have been a necessity and instead of taking responsibility for being in power and making these decisions they lamely blame the previous government or the IMF programme. It doesnt matter if its true, they wanted power and they wanted to run the country, well run it and stop blaming everybody else. Thats leadership, taking responsibility for your decisions and bringing people on board with it.

FG/Labs communication skills are possibly even worse then that of our previous government, even for basic simple things. They have shown little understanding of the pain out there, coursing out the usual BS "sure its only €1 a month" bollocks whenever they are raising taxes (or bringing in new ones). The only reason there arent any scandals is because people arent focusing on their actions as much as they should. They are still racking up ridiculous amounts of expenses, treat the Irish people with contempt like our previous shower (arrogance shown in referendum last year) and have done little (if anything) for real meaningful change within the public service (just hiding behind eh/imf at every corner), hoping that Germany will come out and say that Irelands public service pay should not be nearly double their own!

And what have our government done to try and give the Irish people any sort of closure regarding the lack of accountability for those who were major players in the collapse ?

Oh and how well is Kenny at communicating with us ? What about our promised annual reviews of sitting ministers ? Oh, but sure why bother debating the recent referendum ? He is not allowed debate because he is a very poor communicator and as such, for the good of FG (not the Irish People) he is kept off TV (particularly debates) as much as possible.

As far as I am concerned, same shower, differant letters on the door . . They have shown little ingenuity or change in direction from FF and have shown arrogance close to levels of FF, very quickly.

I dont care much for any of the parties or people involved in politics (even on the ground) because from what I have seen (and Ive seen a fair bit), few of them are about whats best for the country as they are about just getting their own into power (and then sure we can deal with the small detail of candidate competency once they are in power). they rely and succeed on the ignorance of the electorate . .

And my post is very much on topic. The Irish electorate are arguably the biggest and most powerful party in the whole crisis. We elected, and continue to support/elect parties that promise us things they shouldnt really promise and tell us things we want to hear. Its no excuse that this is the way politics works in western civilastion (thats a lazy cop out excuse). If you accept that this is as good as it can get, then you will be the prophet of your own mediocre level of expectations.

FG havent raised the bar in anyway, they've been lucky that the country is in such a state , people dont really want to hear that they arent much better then FF. In fact, people dont want to hear about TD scandals because most people believe that there is no other alternative and perish the thought of having to vote Sinn Fein. If theres one thing thats consistant with humans is that ignorance is bliss and selective disgust is rife in politics. How long were FF at it before people cared what they were up to ? In 2007 elections people didnt care what FF were doing because everything was fine. In 2011 people didnt care about the credibility or competency of FG/Lab so how can anybody clearly state that they are any better if the microscope of public opinion was on whether or not you were FF (not how competent or morally trustable a candidate is)?

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Anything remotely prudent that has been done by this government was either something that FF have put in place or more then often something that the IMF/EU bailout deal has forced them to do.

Any prudent measures or cost savings have been a necessity and instead of taking responsibility for being in power and making these decisions they lamely blame the previous government or the IMF programme.

Eh?

t doesnt matter if its true,

It really does.

They have been in power for less than 2 years. Your points on PS reform are misinformed. Your points on bringing people to justice are populist, what do you want them to do, pull the plug on the (yes annoyingly long) investigations and flog people in the streets? Kenny's popularity remains relatively high and while not a natural orator he has proven statesmanlike, even if he refused to debate on VB with Gerry Adams.

My point isn't that there are no issues, I have major issues with the current government but they are undoubtedly a step up from FF - or do you want to argue they are not a step up from the previous FF-led shambles of a government?

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

Eh?



It really does.

They have been in power for less than 2 years. Your points on PS reform are misinformed. Your points on bringing people to justice are populist, what do you want them to do, pull the plug on the (yes annoyingly long) investigations and flog people in the streets? Kenny's popularity remains relatively high and while not a natural orator he has proven statesmanlike, even if he refused to debate on VB with Gerry Adams.

My point isn't that there are no issues, I have major issues with the current government but they are undoubtedly a step up from FF - or do you want to argue they are not a step up from the previous FF-led shambles of a government?

Pulling the plug on the house zoning enquiries started by the greens doesnt really back up your stance. I believe they want to start an enquiry into this enquiry which sort of mocks your point on them pulling the plug on annoyingly long investigations! My house is built on a floodplain in a field that was called "frog marsh" by the locals. I would love for Labour TD Dominic Hannigan to explain why this was allowed when he was a local councellor! But hey, FG/Lab are not FF so Im prob being a bit unfair in looking for a reasonable explanation as to why i Live in an estate that has flooded 4 times in the 6 years I have lived in it . .

It is clear that there wouldnt be just many FF councellors potentially involved in dodgy rezoning of land. My uncle was a councellor and said you wouldnt believe how corrupt that the majority of them were (which was why he got out of it) and he didnt excuse his own party either.

If you want to have a transparent government, its the one thing that even a penniless government can do if it wishes. You didnt answer my point on the annual ministerial reviews we were promised and yuo have done nothing to highlight where exactly this government is superior to FF other then by saying that they arent FF.

I have seen nothing from them, that suggests they want to clean up politics. It might be a populist thing to introduce, but that doesnt make it wrong. I would rather they did the right thing for the wrong reasons (populist) then do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons (self preservation).

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Pulling the plug on the house zoning enquiries started by the greens doesnt really back up your stance. I believe they want to start an enquiry into this enquiry which sort of mocks your point on them pulling the plug on annoyingly long investigations! My house is built on a floodplain in a field that was called "frog marsh" by the locals. I would love for Labour TD Dominic Hannigan to explain why this was allowed when he was a local councellor! But hey, FG/Lab are not FF so Im prob being a bit unfair in looking for a reasonable explanation as to why i Live in an estate that has flooded 4 times in the 6 years I have lived in it . .

It is clear that there wouldnt be just many FF councellors potentially involved in dodgy rezoning of land. My uncle was a councellor and said you wouldnt believe how corrupt that the majority of them were (which was why he got out of it) and he didnt excuse his own party either.

If you want to have a transparent government, its the one thing that even a penniless government can do if it wishes. You didnt answer my point on the annual ministerial reviews we were promised and yuo have done nothing to highlight where exactly this government is superior to FF other then by saying that they arent FF.

I'm not going to go back and forth on every issue with this government, mainly because the issues you highlight are issues I'm also concerned about. But my point was simple. The current government are a step up from the previous one. It is an overall synopsis on their performance so far. It is not a judgement based solely on political reform but overall performance. If you want to argue they are the same or worse then go ahead but you are blatantly wrong.

I have seen nothing from them, that suggests they want to clean up politics. It might be a populist thing to introduce, but that doesnt make it wrong. I would rather they did the right thing for the wrong reasons (populist) then do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons (self preservation).

Populism isn't doing what is right for the wrong reasons. It is doing something popular for the wrong reasons (to placate the masses and stay in power). Populism goes hand in hand with self-preservation. This government are telling people what they don't want to hear e.g. you have to pay for this, you have to pay more for that, we have to sell this and we have to cut that and introducing charges that are very unpopular but necessary - if currently unfair. They are constantly emphasising that the road to recovery will be long and painful. They are not all 'we have turned a corner' and 'cheapest bailout in the world'. They are being optimistically honest - though I still have issues like the ones you mention. They could definitely be better on many fronts but they are a damn sight better than FF.

golfwallah

Laminations wrote: »

Eh?

It really does.

They have been in power for less than 2 years. Your points on PS reform are misinformed. Your points on bringing people to justice are populist, what do you want them to do, pull the plug on the (yes annoyingly long) investigations and flog people in the streets? Kenny's popularity remains relatively high and while not a natural orator he has proven statesmanlike, even if he refused to debate on VB with Gerry Adams.

My point isn't that there are no issues, I have major issues with the current government but they are undoubtedly a step up from FF - or do you want to argue they are not a step up from the previous FF-led shambles of a government?

I sympathise with your disgust at the last FF/PD government. This prompted many people, myself included, to vote against FF/PD in the last election and give the new crowd a chance to do better.

But, they are in power since March 2011, and I can’t agree with defending their poor performance, simply because they are not the last lot – this is just letting them off the hook. We are in a situation that has been described as the worst crisis ever to be faced since the foundation of the state – what is required is decisive leadership and action – not twiddling around the edges of problems, constant excuses and blaming the last lot.

So far they have just been implementing the policies initiated under the FF/PD administration (as set out in the EU/IMF MOU of December 2010) and quarterly reporting against this plan. I’ve read the progress reports against the Programme for Government – soft vague targets – not very impressive.

As for more substantial progress, FG seem to be stymied at every turn by Labour from implementing substantive change (e.g. to free up money required to stimulate growth).

Their plan seems more of the Scarlett O’Hara variety, "Tomorrow I'll think of some way . . . after all, tomorrow is another day." Let’s look at specifics:

Enda Kenny – Still waiting for Angela Merkel to solve his problems http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0607/1224317444349.html). How about doing it yourself, Enda?

Eamonn Gilmore in Foreign Affairs – well, I ask you, Enda is doing his job.

Michael Noonan, Finance – steady performance “controlling the poke”, even allowing for the one liners.

James Reilly, Health – Well qualified for this difficult job but we should be getting much better value for all the money being spent here.

Ruairi Quinn, Education & Skills – making some progress even if very slow.

Brendan Howlin, Public Expenditure and Reform – great on saving the “low hanging fruit” (many re-hired on contract) but now appears to have ground to a halt. May be satisfying the unions, but if that’s the best you can do with so much potential for savings, you should pack up and go.

Richard Bruton, Jobs, Enterprise & Innovation – making progress but starved of money to stimulate new ventures.

Joan Bruton, Social Protection – taking a bit of a stand against fraud but could be doing a lot more.

Phil Hogan, Environment, Community & Local Government – Still has to tackle Council waste seriously, not great on Household Charges.

Alan Shatter, Justice, Equality & Defence – Still waiting for the promised Personal Insolvency Bill, but has it been costed properly and can we afford it?

Pat Rabbitte, Communications, Energy & Natural Resources – a good talker but what has he delivered?

Leo Varadkar, Transport, Tourism & Sport – Tackling some tricky areas, making steady progress, a good performer, IMO.

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

Populism isn't doing what is right for the wrong reasons. It is doing something popular for the wrong reasons (to placate the masses and stay in power). Populism goes hand in hand with self-preservation. This government are telling people what they don't want to hear e.g. you have to pay for this, you have to pay more for that, we have to sell this and we have to cut that and introducing charges that are very unpopular but necessary - if currently unfair. They are constantly emphasising that the road to recovery will be long and painful. They are not all 'we have turned a corner' and 'cheapest bailout in the world'. They are being optimistically honest - though I still have issues like the ones you mention. They could definitely be better on many fronts but they are a damn sight better than FF.

I know what populism is . . You stated that I was making populist remarks which I wasnt. I was saying what our government CAN do to try to get people behind them. I admitted they were populist measures, but the fact that they were the right things to do, overrides any issue with the populist factor.

The government slashing their wages/remuneration might be populist, but its the right thing to do, being populist doesnt change the fact that it would give them the moral authority to make more significant cuts required throughout the public service. Unions couldnt point to how protected the politicians are, if they were making huge sacrifices.

The government saying that we are in an awful economic predicament everytime taxes are raised or new taxes are introduced is very hollow when they are still living it up in comparison to other bankrupt states. They have no courage to match their platitudes and have done little new to our previous government. THe biggest insult I can give them is that they are no better then the last shower and I stand by it because they have offered little new and you havent even offered any credible evidence to back up your own views.

FF set the benchmark so low, most of us thought FG/Lab couldnt fail but to be better, but they have made a great go at matching our previous shower. The longer they are in power, the more I feel the odds are shortening that they will lower the bar even further . . Im not judging them on things they cant do, Im judging them on things they wont do out of self preservation. . That was one of FFs biggest dodgy traits . . The party ahead of everything else and FG/Lab have shown so far to be no differant when they could of made strides (even in 1.5 years) to get peoples confidence back into politics.

Fighting Irish

The government makes the rules, we vote in the government!

But wait it's the bankers fault!

mac_iomhair

We like to a lot of complaining but very few are willing to do anything about it.

golfwallah

mac_iomhair wrote: »

We like to a lot of complaining but very few are willing to do anything about it.

Agreed, complaining won’t change anything and politicians (as much as anyone else) are slow to change and only do new things when they have no other choice. Just look at Enda’s informal phone call to Angela Merkel for help with interest rates (yes, our leaders are still looking to Germany to solve our economic problems). Reading between the lines, this seems to have received a very tacit response (that he needs to sort out his own problems).

Additionally, there is a lot of inertia and further resistance to change to be overcome among management and staff in the public service.

And in case anyone thinks I’m turning this into a public V private service argument, there’s just as much resistance to change in the private sector – but with one big difference – private firms have to tackle change quickly or they will run out of cash and go bust. Government, County Councils, etc. have been “resolving” deficits and cash flow shortages by borrowing – so they have the luxury of avoiding unpleasant / unpopular issues for a lot longer.

That being said, I believe that those in power will eventually react if they get enough feedback on an issue based and focused way from the electorate (i.e. don’t expect the world to change).

Lobby groups prove it can be done but it’s a bit more difficult for the individual.

There are different levels of doing something about an issue you feel strongly about, starting with writing to your TD or Councillor, to starting an internet campaign, forming a lobby group, becoming politically active (supporting an independent or a party) or going forward for election yourself.

Not easy, but it can be done. What’s needed is an issue to focus on (as in project management, “scope” needs to be very restricted) and then getting support for change.

hatrickpatrick

Fighting Irish wrote: »

The government makes the rules, we vote in the government!

But wait it's the bankers fault!

By your logic if the government legalized murder tomorrow and I went out and killed a bunch of innocent people, I'd be totally blameless.
I'm incredibly sick of people citing "Regulatory failures" with regard to the banking collapse - just because something is allowed, doesn't mean you should do it, doesn't mean you're right to do it, and doesn't mean you shouldn't be fired for doing it. You act like it's impossible to be morally at odds with the law - we all know that's not the case.

Or are you one of these people who argues that ethics are irrelevant and we shouldn't ever expect people to do the right thing without a gun to their head? :mad:

Drumpot

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

By your logic if the government legalized murder tomorrow and I went out and killed a bunch of innocent people, I'd be totally blameless.
I'm incredibly sick of people citing "Regulatory failures" with regard to the banking collapse - just because something is allowed, doesn't mean you should do it, doesn't mean you're right to do it, and doesn't mean you shouldn't be fired for doing it. You act like it's impossible to be morally at odds with the law - we all know that's not the case.

Or are you one of these people who argues that ethics are irrelevant and we shouldn't ever expect people to do the right thing without a gun to their head? :mad:

Spot on . . The amount of times politicians hide behind technicalities when some of their less desirable actions are exposed is remarkable.

Sure the whole promises at election is the perfect example. Broken promises are excused because they are accepted as "part and parcel" of politics. Yes, its ok for our government and politicians to lie because its the norm . . Like WTF is wrong with people ?

Heres a simple idea. When a politiciatian of any kind (TD - Councellor) if everybody said - "

• "If I find out you make any promises that you break or if you are proven to of lied about anything, I will never vote for you again"
• "If you dont clearly define all expenses you claim and have reciepts to back them up, I will never vote for you again"
• "If you do not setup a clearly defined code of ethics for everybody in politics that also outlines discipline practises for politicians under investigation, I will never vote for you again. This should include the minutes at any meeting between a politician and a large lobby, vested group, company or entrepeneur"

Theres just two simply things everybody can say to their local politician that will force change. Im sure theres plenty of other generic things that could be said, but you get my drift. Of course you need people to have the courage to match their convictions (few of them in this country by the looks of it), but its a start.

golfwallah

Where does that put Mick Wallace after admitting he made false VAT returns?

I sympathize with Mick's predicament (he worked hard, achieved success in a tough economy, built good quality, was good to his employees and the people of Wexford) but he has admitted breaking the law.

Where do we draw the line on moral hazard?

coolshannagh28

The present government will pay a price for their craven behaviour and juvenile miscalculations since coming to power .
Sinn Fein are eating up the labour vote even before they have to make tough decisions .
The disenfranchised private sector / self employed /small farmer coping class could easily latch on to them if a new party doesn't appear soon .
What odds a Sinn Fein govt for 2016

creedp

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The present government will pay a price for their craven behaviour and juvenile miscalculations since coming to power .
Sinn Fein are eating up the labour vote even before they have to make tough decisions .
The disenfranchised private sector / self employed /small farmer coping class could easily latch on to them if a new party doesn't appear soon .
What odds a Sinn Fein govt for 2016

Who would the very much franchised majority of the populaiton vote for next time around? Not everyone in those categories are disenfranchised at present. Nice to see the term 'coping class' again .. haven't seen it since I banned the purchase of the Sindo in our household

creedp

golfwallah wrote: »

Where does that put Mick Wallace after admitting he made false VAT returns?

I sympathize with Mick's predicament (he worked hard, achieved success in a tough economy, built good quality, was good to his employees and the people of Wexford) but he has admitted breaking the law.

Where do we draw the line on moral hazard?

So you sympathise with a guy you has left the taxpayer one whopper of a liability while he continues to live the good life .. what would he have to do for you not to sympathise with him??

golfwallah

creedp wrote: »

So you sympathise with a guy you has left the taxpayer one whopper of a liability while he continues to live the good life .. what would he have to do for you not to sympathise with him??

I sympathize with his predicament, as I would for anyone who takes the risk of setting up a business, creating employment and then that business fails.

That being said, I have no sympathy for him personally having to face the consequences of his admission of deliberate wrongdoing.

What we need in this country is to encourage enterprise but not wrongdoing. The reality is that most new business ventures fail and only a small proportion succeed. In the USA business failure is not viewed as a catastrophe, as it is here, but as part of the price that has to be paid for success.

Everyone can’t be employed in the public service or become doctors, solicitors or other professionals. Therefore, for job creation, outside of foreign multinationals, we need a lot of indigenous businesses and new start-ups.

That being said, people who act outside the law have to face the consequences. Whether Mick Wallace will be found personally liable or not remains to be seen (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0607/1224317444365.html).

I gather the Dail Members’ Interests Committee is sitting next week to investigate the matter. This Committee has the power to refer the matter to the DPP, who could consider whether there could be a criminal prosecution (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/dail-committee-set-to-investigate-td-wallace-554650.html).

creedp

golfwallah wrote: »

I sympathize with his predicament, as I would for anyone who takes the risk of setting up a business, creating employment and then that business fails.

That being said, I have no sympathy for him personally having to face the consequences of his admission of deliberate wrongdoing.

I agree that I would sympathise with anyone who tried to make a sucess of a business and failed but its a different matter when a guy breaks the law/defrauds the taxpayer and then uses the proceeds the increase his/his son's directors payments while having the brass neck to sit in the Dail calling for others to be judged. I suppose he also liquated his other prime assest to try and save his business .. he wasn't too concerned about his employees .. forgot to make thier pension contributions ... it was all about No.1 ..

Also agree that everyone can't be a public servant or doctor ..

I gather the Dail Members’ Interests Committee is sitting next week to investigate the matter. This Committee has the power to refer the matter to the DPP, who could consider whether there could be a criminal prosecution.

I hope they have better luck that they had dealing with that public representative deviant Ivor the tank engine..

golfwallah

Declan Ganley seemed to make sense on CNBC Squawk Box Europe today, 7 – 8am. He has no sympathy for private banks and bondholders and thinks bailouts should stop.

I’m paraphrasing, but, for example, he made the point that taxpayers are backstopping failed private risk after insolvent institutions have failed, when bankruptcy is the pan-European solution that we need to bring back growth into the economy.

Declan Ganley doesn’t like the term “bailout”, as it causes the biggest losers to be rewarded – there is no freedom to succeed without freedom to fail.

What Declan Ganley describes as “the freedom to fail” doesn’t apply equally to everyone. This means that bank bailouts, which imply external aid to the man on the street, in reality result in taxpayers carrying the cost of the rescuing failed banks.

Detaching sovereignty and accountability from the ordinary citizen and placing it with the centre, the Commission, is wrong and needs to be fixed.

According to Declan Ganley, the only solution is to allow banks to go bankrupt – to find the bottom and then start re-building from there. He believes in a purge through insolvency to “find the bottom”. The alternative of bailout rewards failure and creates massive risk up to and including collapse of Euro and the EU and is clearly not working.

These points were made over the entirety of the programme – for starting interview see: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000094724&play=1

Ganley arguments mean that “Moral hazard” is being applied in an undemocratic manner – bankers are allowed make mistakes without consequences, whereas the ordinary man has to carry the costs – of both bank failure and, where applicable, repaying loans on homes in negative equity.

Now that we have “bailed out” private banks and bondholders in Ireland, starting to do the same in Spain and, next, Italy, I’m wondering how proposals like Declan Ganley’s could ever be implemented and what it would mean to savers – presumably the bondholders would be “burned”.