Why do we strive to speak a minority language?

somairle

In the last 30 years progressively there has been a global shift towards protecting and increasing the numbers of minority langauge speakers. I am writing a research paper on this shift, and the reasons and have chosen Irish as my case study both becuase I have been trying to learn it these last few years & because there are few examples of a language lost so quickly & the revival (& independence) make for good writing.

I am here on the Gaeilge board just to begin canvassing general opinions on the following;

1/ Gaelic Ireland & the language
2/ the end of Gaelic rule in 1607 & the effect on language
3/ union in 1801 & the british effect on langauge
4/ the effect of the famine on the language
5/ the Gaelic revival & nationalism & Irish
6/ independence & the failed revival
7/ recent protectionism (incl. tg4, gaelscoileanna etc) & their effect

Then I am going to examine the reasons why or or why not people feel minority languages should be protected or revived and examine in the context of the above if these feelings are misplaced (nationalism etc) or whether minority language are indeed a sacred part of a national identity.

Many thanks for your feedback, im open minded and do not know what I will conclude, but a flavour of your opinions will put me in a good mind frame to begin hard research.

PS the reason I began learning Irish was I felt it was an important part of my culture and that we should speak our own language, I also bought into the nationalistic sense of learning it, but as the years have gone on my views have waned and I am starting to see the language as a just a language albeit it is part of Ireland and its history, so having the chance to do this paper was perfect at my stage so I can really explore and discover what are the true reasons to learn minority languages

Thanks

Enkidu

Well I'll start. Firstly I should say that any kind of feelings for the nation of Ireland had zero to do with why I learned the language (although I do not mean that as a comment on those who do have such feelings).

My reasons for learning are that the language was in my family (grandmother from the Gaeltacht) and that Irish has intrinsic interest as a language. If our ancestral language had been just some other Romance language, let's say, I probably wouldn't have learned it. The fact that Irish is a Celtic language with highly developed literature is a big part of it.

As for minority languages in general, I can't put it better than Ken Hale, "When a language dies....it's like dropping a bomb on the Louvre".

somairle

Thanks for that, so would you say that your motivation to learn was more practical (to communicate with your grandmother) or more romantic? For want of a better word, as in it gave your more a connection with your families history?

Enkidu

somairle wrote: »

Thanks for that, so would you say that your motivation to learn was more practical (to communicate with your grandmother) or more romantic? For want of a better word, as in it gave your more a connection with your families history?

I would say more romantic, to connect with my family's history and the literature which was written here. Also the motivation was at least half linguistic, Irish is very interesting as a language. So I would say some sort of romantic/linguistic motivation.

(Not practical, as granny, like a lot of people from Gaeltachtaí (which I guess is a big part of the post-famine decline of the language) was somewhat indifferent to Irish).

Gumbi

I didn't have a choice; I was speaking it before English. I do strive to preserve it, though, and post regularly on an Irish forum. I speak it at home also.

Why? Why not? It's not awkward. Being naturally bilingual is hugely advantageous. Many studies tend to find that bilingual children tend to perform better academically. It makes school Irish an absolute breeze.

It's an extremely powerful language, much moreso than English in my opinion. Highly descriptive. I'm not overly partial to literature, and yet I find this attractive. It's a beautiful language.

I consider it a huge part of my national identity. In defining what it is to be Irish, I find it prudent to yet include the language as part of that description.

I imagine the worldly tendency to preserve minority languagaes is grounded solidly on evolutionary reasons.

Enkidu

I should also say that it's not a static thing. One of the big motivations as I've progressed is the literature. I honestly think some of the literature from 1890-1950 in Irish is phenomenal and really under appreciated, for example the stories of Séamas Ó Grianna. So I am motivated to read more of that. I honestly think most native speakers and fluent learners read far too little Irish. I remember getting a guy from the Mayo Gaeltacht to read Caisleán Óir and he was really surprised there were books that good.

guitarzero

From my experience with folks on the revival part it seems to be almost entirely romantic as you say. Theres also the bitterness of such a tyrannical force coming here and depriving us of something very integral to us as our own language. Then the idealism of how we once were before the English forces came and how things could return to such if we adopt the language again. I know one who's active in the revival and its these reasons that keep him going.
Personally I see no reason other than curiosity to keep the Irish language. Languages offer us a glimpse in to past of another culture, kinda like the rosseta stone for example. But if anything the revival is an inconvenience. We have an education system that is rigid and inflexible. The Irish language is then forced on our young who will never use it or need. Its quite senseless.
Ultimately I think its a think of identity, the whole "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam". These revivalists seem to feel such a false deprivation without Irish with is quite frankly bullsh*t based on false notions of Irishness.

Enkidu

guitarzero wrote: »

Ultimately I think its a think of identity, the whole "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam". These revivalists seem to feel such a false deprivation without Irish with is quite frankly bullsh*t based on false notions of Irishness.

Two people (including myself) have posted for whom that is not the reason.

Insect Overlord

Enkidu wrote: »

guitarzero wrote: »

Ultimately I think its a think of identity, the whole "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam". These revivalists seem to feel such a false deprivation without Irish with is quite frankly bullsh*t based on false notions of Irishness.

Two people (including myself) have posted for whom that is not the reason.

Make that three now. I have to say I completely and totally disagree with that notion. I have no political motivation whatsoever for studying, speaking and promoting Gaeilge.

somairle

Im certainly interesting in people who want to revive it for political/ "its been taken away" reasons, im sure there are some. I also really want to hear from those who disregard any notion of history/ culture/ romance and to whom the Irish is just a language as any other.

I also wonder how big the generalisation is from those indifferent to Irish is that people who want to revive it all either wear tweed or have some notion of reclaiming Ireland from the effects of colonisation. I have to say in my years of learning I have come across a few that certainly hold that the Brits took it away, and we should revive it to assert our national identity, but I have met far more who for them its more about connecting culturally.

Thanks for the replies I cant wait to see where this takes me, obviously I wont only be asking Irish boards, its going to be balanced

P. Breathnach

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Make that three now. I have to say I completely and totally disagree with that notion. I have no political motivation whatsoever for studying, speaking and promoting Gaeilge.

Four (subject to the caveats that I am too damn lazy to do much study, and any promotion I do is fairly limited).

P. Breathnach

somairle wrote: »

... I also really want to hear from those who disregard any notion of history/ culture/ romance and to whom the Irish is just a language as any other....

If you find anybody who agrees with the suggestion in that sentence, then you will have found somebody with a remarkable view of the world. Language is, at its very core, cultural.

somairle

Non more so than Irish I think, but given the lack of enthusiasm for speaking it out there I'm trying to get to people who don't view Irish as having any cultural connection to them personally ie "as long as it's going on some place in the country its part of a broad Irish culture, but its not for me".

mathepac

I think it's impossible to discuss culture on this island in isolation from the language. A culture without the language as it's means of communication and expression is not Irish culture, it's Anglo-Irish or perhaps more accurately these days, an Anglo-McDonald's one.

This slide into Anglo-Americanism's in speech and written communication coincides with the noticeable decline in both Irish and English and I believe that the wholesale adoption of trans-Atlanticisms will kill off the Irish language quicker that the periods of occupation and active suppression did.

franc 91

I'm interested in Irish, first of all because I was attracted by Irish music and song (Clannad have a lot to answer for) and following on from that, the language. I think that Irish is an important language and culture on a European level. Please note that I'm not at all Irish and have no family connections there either. I would also like to point out that having lived in France for many years, you are not alone in being preoccupied by the status of minority languages. Here we have Breton, Alsatian, Flemish, Corsican, Catalan, Basque and a whole range of different varieties of Occitan (and I've probably forgotten a few others) all of which have had to fight official disapproval over the years - and the battle is still going on in some quarters. Irish has its place just as much as any other language.

somairle

franc 91 wrote: »

Here we have Breton, Alsatian, Flemish, Corsican, Catalan, Basque and a whole range of different varieties of Occitan (and I've probably forgotten a few others) all of which have had to fight official disapproval over the years - and the battle is still going on in some quarters. Irish has its place just as much as any other language.

Im using Corsican as an example of Frecnh 'supremecy', i'm going to have to do a lot of research as I dont know the situation there fully, but I get the sense the French government hasnt exactly been helpful to minority languages

franc 91

Well if you'd like any information or help I'd be willing to give it to you. Two years ago they brought out a book called - le Corse pour les Nuls (Corsican for Dummies) which I found very useful - you might be surprised to learn that Corsican has a lot of lenition, but unlike in Irish it's not apparent in the written language.

conor.hogan.2

Irish is just another language, it just happens it was advantageous to learn it as a vast (vast) amount of our literature and history was through Irish and it (while not completely necessary with translations) was handy to know enough to read all that was written in Irish.

conor.hogan.2

somairle wrote: »

I'm trying to get to people who don't view Irish as having any cultural connection to them personally ie "as long as it's going on some place in the country its part of a broad Irish culture, but its not for me".

As far as I remember and know Robin Flower had no cultural or family ties to Ireland.

I doubt he was the only one, a lot of Germans have and had a fascination with Irish for example (no names or examples of the top of my head though)

P. Breathnach

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

As far as I remember and know Robin Flower had no cultural or family ties to Ireland.

I doubt he was the only one, a lot of Germans have and had a fascination with Irish for example (no names or examples of the top of my head though)

But Flower was deeply interested in the cultural dimension - not giving as much weight to music, dance, poetry, or folklore, as to the ordinary way of life of the Blasket Island people; that's cultural, too,

Other visitors, like the Norwegian Karl Marstrader and the Englishman George Thompson were also very interested in the way that people lived (mind you, Thompson was also interested in traditional stories).

But the core point is that a language is, in itself, cultural. Irish has its own vocabulary and syntax, and living through Irish is qualitatively different from living through another language.

shayno90

This article from last week is most apt for this thread:

http://gaelsceal.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1538:knygnesiaismuigleiri-leabharbook-smugglers&catid=8:beatha&Itemid=294

It parallels the Irish struggle to revive the Irish language versus the Lithuania one and why the latter was more successful.

“How can the Irish keep their language?”
“They should sing songs in Irish and print magazines and newspapers in Irish, in secret if they have to.”
“But there is no ban on Irish. They can print and write as much as they want.”
“Well then what’s the problem?”
“People don’t want to speak it.”
“They’re bastards. What’s the point? They should just die if they won’t accept their own nation.”

The above is an opinion from an old Lithuanian woman living in Ireland. She is right about the laziness but the volume of media in English, the use of English as a global langauge plus children not speaking Irish from an early age are part of this struggle to make Irish more pervasive.

conor.hogan.2

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But Flower was deeply interested in the cultural dimension - not giving as much weight to music, dance, poetry, or folklore, as to the ordinary way of life of the Blasket Island people; that's cultural, too,

Other visitors, like the Norwegian Karl Marstrader and the Englishman George Thompson were also very interested in the way that people lived (mind you, Thompson was also interested in traditional stories).

But the core point is that a language is, in itself, cultural. Irish has its own vocabulary and syntax, and living through Irish is qualitatively different from living through another language.

We are talking about the language, only for as much as that is possible.

Irish is of course cultural, but if an "outsider" comes in an mostly is interested in the language alone then they treat it as close to how to OP is curious about.

stwidgie

somairle wrote: »

I am here on the Gaeilge board just to begin canvassing general opinions on the following;

1/ Gaelic Ireland & the language
2/ the end of Gaelic rule in 1607 & the effect on language
3/ union in 1801 & the british effect on langauge
4/ the effect of the famine on the language
5/ the Gaelic revival & nationalism & Irish
6/ independence & the failed revival
7/ recent protectionism (incl. tg4, gaelscoileanna etc) & their effect

Hi Somairle,

That's quite the list. I have to confess ignorance on 2-6; I only know a smidge about a couple of those.

I began learning 10+ years ago here in Chicago because I'd wanted to ever since I started playing Irish trad music. It's the first minority language I've studied. I stuck with it because I enjoyed it. I found it challenging, but no harder than any other language I've studied. It's given me some great opportunities to meet people, and it's something my husband and I enjoy using together. We'll attend our first immersion course this summer.

Yes, I know there are rational arguments against maintaining it as an official language. I don't think there's anything wrong with having emotional reasons for learning a language; they're just other reasons.

I've begun teaching Irish (mostly co-leading our study group). While I feel very enthusiastic about that, and love helping people learn, I don't consider myself a language activist. If someone doesn't have an interest in the language, I can't change that. I hope that people in Ireland will choose to continue supporting their language, but I accept that things may change.

Focalbhach

This article on minority and endangered languages might be of interest:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/07/vanishing-languages/rymer-text

deirdremf

somairle wrote: »

I am here on the Gaeilge board just to begin canvassing general opinions on the following;

1/ Gaelic Ireland & the language
2/ the end of Gaelic rule in 1607 & the effect on language
3/ union in 1801 & the british effect on langauge
4/ the effect of the famine on the language
5/ the Gaelic revival & nationalism & Irish
6/ independence & the failed revival
7/ recent protectionism (incl. tg4, gaelscoileanna etc) & their effect

Thanks

On number 3, I think Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin dated the Irish language falling out of favour in the hedge-schools of his district (around Callan in Co. Kilkenny, IIRC) to around 1818. The parents of his pupils had lived through the Union and the Napoleonic Wars (and many soldiers and sailors no doubt returned from the wars now fluent in English); and at this stage, the effect of the Union on the administration was no doubt starting to be seen, with the appointment of many officials from England to offices in Ireland, who had no interest in Irish nor any feel for the country, unlike say the descendants of the Cromwellian settlers who had now been in the country for 150 years, and had reached some sort of accommodation with the natives. So this dates a declining interest by the Irish-speaking middle class in the Irish language. This does not prove that the Union caused this decline in interest, but it could have been an important factor.

On number 4, the famine hit the poorest harder than anyone else; and as in other societies with a colonising upper class, the better off locals started to use the foreigners' language to get on in life, or to retain their status within the new society, and ended up speaking it in the home.
(You'll find plenty of similar examples throughout the Americas, and the same is still happening in post-colonial societies all over Africa in the present.)
As a result, Irish gradually was relegated to being the language of the poorer sections of society, and by the time the famine happened, the middle classes (including moderately well-off farmers) throughout the country had mostly gone over to English already. The Irish speaking classes were pretty much wiped out by the famine, and many of those that were not killed by the famine were uprooted and forced to emigrate by clearances of estates to make way for sheep herding and, more especially, cattle ranching - which is of course still one of the mainstays of the Irish economy.

Within the society that resulted from the above, the Irish-speaker was seen as an ignorant peasant, and looked down upon. (This still happens today - I was at a formal do recently where a family member of a previous Taoiseach expressed horror that I could speak Irish!)