Do GPs get a pension?

highcream

Just wondering,are GPs entitled to a guaranteed pension like the rest of the public sector?
Just curious
Thanks

ResearchWill

highcream wrote: »

Just wondering,are GPs entitled to a guaranteed pension like the rest of the public sector?
Just curious
Thanks

To the best of my knowledge GP's are not in the public sector, they must provide their own pension like all the rest of the self employed.

RobFowl

No they pay into a private pension a scheme. The UK is different in that GP's there get a guaranteed index linked pension,
GP's here are like any other self employed person.

sorry to disappoint you

Delancey

That is why a number of GP's remain in practice past normal retirement age - no public pension provisions.

_AVALANCHE_

My "local" GP has earned just shy of a million euro in the last 3 years from Med card alone, I'd say he'll be alright in old age.

ResearchWill

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

My "local" GP has earned just shy of a million euro in the last 3 years from Med card alone, I'd say he'll be alright in old age.

Sounds like a load of money, untill you take wages, insurance and fees for doctor on call service, income and profit are two very different things. I'm not saying GP's don't earn good money but what they get to put in their pockets is not everything that comes in the door.

Delancey

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

My "local" GP has earned just shy of a million euro in the last 3 years from Med card alone, I'd say he'll be alright in old age.

These published figures can be misleading in much the same way as amounts paid to lawyers by the Legal Aid scheme - staff wages , rent , and a host of other costs come out of this amount . I knew a Solicitor who earned a large amount from legal aid work but his standard of living was not what you might have expected - crappy car and his wifes car was even crappier !

looksee

I think you will find that particular GP is paying two other doctors, a nurse, two receptionists and a clerical person, not to mention cleaners etc, rent and insurance on a good sized premises and probably other stuff I haven't taken account of. Not saying he is poverty stricken, but not as simple as it looks.

RobFowl

looksee wrote: »

I think you will find that particular GP is paying two other doctors, a nurse, two receptionists and a clerical person, not to mention cleaners etc, rent and insurance on a good sized premises and probably other stuff I haven't taken account of. Not saying he is poverty stricken, but not as simple as it looks.

This is the most accurate description of the present situation. GP's are by no means badly paid but the listed fee's bear little relation to actual income, knock 40-70% off total turnover to get gross profit which is how Gp's are pain. (Are self employed not salaried).
Like all self employed people GP's pensions have taken a severe hit over the past 5-6 years.

_AVALANCHE_

looksee wrote: »

I think you will find that particular GP is paying two other doctors, a nurse, two receptionists and a clerical person, not to mention cleaners etc, rent and insurance on a good sized premises and probably other stuff I haven't taken account of. Not saying he is poverty stricken, but not as simple as it looks.

Def not paying any Docs, (How do you come to this?)

1 reception
No clerical

RobFowl

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Def not paying any Docs, (How do you come to this?)

1 reception
No clerical

Are you sure? nno practice nurse, who covers him on holidays, no other Docs ever in the practice???
Unusual to say the least in this day and age...

ResearchWill

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Def not paying any Docs, (How do you come to this?)

1 reception
No clerical

That's one busy doctor, to earn 330k a year on GMS is a lot of patients. To do that with just the doctor and 1 reception, that doctor must be run off their feet. The deserve every cent they get if they do it all themselves.

_AVALANCHE_

RobFowl wrote: »

Are you sure? nno practice nurse, who covers him on holidays, no other Docs ever in the practice???
Unusual to say the least in this day and age...

ResearchWill wrote: »

That's one busy doctor, to earn 330k a year on GMS is a lot of patients. To do that with just the doctor and 1 reception, that doctor must be run off their feet. The deserve every cent they get if they do it all themselves.

Sorry guys, their is a nurse.

Holidays are usually covered by South African lads, he wouldn't have to pay them though surly??


Got talking to the cover doc by chance last year, he actually classed it as a holiday to come over to cover the local guys holiday. lol.

Sick days? Haven't a clue who covers....he's always there.:pac:


He has actually cut back in the hours!! Use to see him leaving the surgery at 11pm+ 4-5 years back.


It's a HSE building, don't know what that would mean for cleaners and that sorta thing.....he'd give me a breakdown of it all if I actually asked him, sound guy.

sam34

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Holidays are usually covered by South African lads, he wouldn't have to pay them though surly??

why not?

who do you think pays them?

looksee

OK different person.

highcream

In fairness,they would have enough money in their bank accounts to be very comfortable without any pension at all.
I agree they dont earn as much as people think but they are the best paid self employed workers.
Not saying they dont deserve good money .
Im sure they put up with enough crap from the public to warrant their salaries

RobFowl wrote: »

This is the most accurate description of the present situation. GP's are by no means badly paid but the listed fee's bear little relation to actual income, knock 40-70% off total turnover to get gross profit which is how Gp's are pain. (Are self employed not salaried).
Like all self employed people GP's pensions have taken a severe hit over the past 5-6 years.

_AVALANCHE_

sam34 wrote: »

why not?

who do you think pays them?

Eh, the patients that they'd be seeing.


I don't why Docs-Dentists and the like pretend that they're poor or earn f-all.

caff

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Eh, the patients that they'd be seeing.


I don't why Docs-Dentists and the like pretend that they're poor or earn f-all.

No, the locum ( the temporary doc ) give the money they recieve to the GP who hired them. They are temporay employees of the GP who takes them on to cover holidays. The GP has to pay them and also employers PRSI etc...

More info here http://www.locumlink.ie/gp_jobs.php and here http://www.mcdowellaccountants.ie/tax-briefing-82-is-a-locum-self-employed-or-employed/

highcream

When the public sees them earning those wages they get extremely envious nd will make their lives a lot harder.One mistake as a doc and that could be career over.
In fairness, i dont think anyone tells people they earn loads of money.
Teachers are always preaching poverty,yet imo they have one of the most monetary rewarding jobs.U can work 18 hours a week,spend every penny u earn,cant be sacked and have the comfort of a pension until the day u die.

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Eh, the patients that they'd be seeing.


I don't why Docs-Dentists and the like pretend that they're poor or earn f-all.

sam34

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Eh, the patients that they'd be seeing.


I don't why Docs-Dentists and the like pretend that they're poor or earn f-all.

nope, that's not the way gp locums work. the gp pays the locum themselves.

I don't think anyone is claiming that gp's are poor or badly paid, simply just pointing out that when you hear of them earning 300k there's a lot of expenses/outgoings that you never hear about.

_AVALANCHE_

highcream wrote: »

When the public sees them earning those wages they get extremely envious nd will make their lives a lot harder.One mistake as a doc and that could be career over.

sam34 wrote: »

nope, that's not the way gp locums work. the gp pays the locum themselves.

But he's only giving the Locom back the Consult fees he earned himself, the Local Doc isin't actually out of pocket? Very little if he is.

highcream wrote: »

I don't think anyone is claiming that gp's are poor or badly paid, simply just pointing out that when you hear of them earning 300k there's a lot of expenses/outgoings that you never hear about.

When Doctors Fees were making Headlines few months back to be brought more in line with rest of Europe, their was actually a Doc on the RTE news whinging about expenses (I say whinging because -->), near top of his list.....he had to buy a bed for his surgery!!!! :eek:

If I open a shop tomorrow I have to buy Insurance, rent, fridges, shelves, Cash Register yadda yadda. All self employed have exps you never hear about, they don't go ringing the papers about them.

sam34

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

But he's only giving the Locom back the Consult fees he earned himself, the Local Doc isin't actually out of pocket? Very little if he is

generally, afaik, the locum is on an agreed sessional rate. so, if the locum sees one or ten or thirty patients, they'll get the same sessional rate. so, if they see only one private patient per session, that's all they will hand over to the practice owner, who still has to pay the sessional rate. wrt medical card patients, the payment is thru the gms system obviously.

and locums can charge a fortune- they are heavily in demand.

locum-motion

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

...
When Doctors Fees were making Headlines few months back ...

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

If I open a shop tomorrow I have to buy Insurance, rent, fridges, shelves, Cash Register yadda yadda. All self employed have exps you never hear about, they don't go ringing the papers about them.

Oh for gods sake!
Look at the two parts of your post that I've quoted above.
You're giving out about the doctor "ringing the papers", but completely forgotten that he rang because the issue was already in the news.

If you open a shop tomorrow selling - I dunno - fish, or hurling sticks, or toilet paper, you won't have the HSE annually publishing your turnover (turnover, mind, not Gross Profit, Net Profit or Salary) while referring to it as 'Earnings', nor will you have the newspapers dissecting your figures.

Kristopherus

There's a lot of rubbish posted in this thread about GP's income. In the case of locums, the GP pays the locum, but the GP then claim the cos of the locum from the Primary Care Re-Imbursement Service (PCRS). In the csae of the Practise Nurse and the Admin staff, the GP receives a very generous grant towards the employment of these staff. So generous in fact, that some GPs pay only the grant money to their staff.

GPs also receive substantial assistance from the HSE for upgrading of their practices, and introducing the necessary technology systems to integrat with Hospitals and PCRS. And all this assistance is given to assist the GP with his public patients. A lot of GPS also have very substantial panels of private patients. The income from this panel is not divulged publicly.

ResearchWill

Kristopherus wrote: »

There's a lot of rubbish posted in this thread about GP's income. In the case of locums, the GP pays the locum, but the GP then claim the cos of the locum from the Primary Care Re-Imbursement Service (PCRS). In the csae of the Practise Nurse and the Admin staff, the GP receives a very generous grant towards the employment of these staff. So generous in fact, that some GPs pay only the grant money to their staff.

GPs also receive substantial assistance from the HSE for upgrading of their practices, and introducing the necessary technology systems to integrat with Hospitals and PCRS. And all this assistance is given to assist the GP with his public patients. A lot of GPS also have very substantial panels of private patients. The income from this panel is not divulged publicly.

Nobody has said any different, all the money received by GP's from the State through the GMS does not go directly to the GP. No one including myself said a GP does not by and large earn a very good income, all people said is that the money received from the GMS system is not the same as the profit of the GP. So if the GP gets funding for a nurse which he pays to the nurse that is included in the total figure from the GMS.

_AVALANCHE_

ResearchWill wrote: »

Nobody has said any different, all the money received by GP's from the State through the GMS does not go directly to the GP. No one including myself said a GP does not by and large earn a very good income, all people said is that the money received from the GMS system is not the same as the profit of the GP. So if the GP gets funding for a nurse which he pays to the nurse that is included in the total figure from the GMS.

Implied througout Thread that GPs have staff, practice costs to pay (from their earnings) when it actually(?) comes from grants they're freely given.

locum-motion wrote: »

Oh for gods sake!
Look at the two parts of your post that I've quoted above.
You're giving out about the doctor "ringing the papers", but completely forgotten that he rang because the issue was already in the news.

If you open a shop tomorrow selling - I dunno - fish, or hurling sticks, or toilet paper, you won't have the HSE annually publishing your turnover (turnover, mind, not Gross Profit, Net Profit or Salary) while referring to it as 'Earnings', nor will you have the newspapers dissecting your figures.

Meh, if i'd known you were gonna twist it i would have spent abit of time writing it.:)

The expense chosen to justify a higher consult charge was my off topic point.

Whats wrong with calling it earnings when the papers (where most people would see it) break it down for you-->if you needed it.

ResearchWill

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Implied througout Thread that GPs have staff, practice costs to pay (from their earnings) when it actually(?) comes from grants they're freely given.




Meh, if i'd known you were gonna twist it i would have spent abit of time writing it.:)

The expense chosen to justify a higher consult charge was my off topic point.

Whats wrong with calling it earnings when the papers (where most people would see it) break it down for you-->if you needed it.

What you miss is that any grant for staff or equipment as far as I am aware are included in the figure that the GP's receive from the GMS, do the doctor who received 1 million in 3 years that figure includes all money given by the GMS for everything. That's the only point being made.

RobFowl

Kristopherus wrote: »

There's a lot of rubbish posted in this thread about GP's income. In the case of locums, the GP pays the locum, but the GP then claim the cos of the locum from the Primary Care Re-Imbursement Service (PCRS). In the csae of the Practise Nurse and the Admin staff, the GP receives a very generous grant towards the employment of these staff. So generous in fact, that some GPs pay only the grant money to their staff.

GPs also receive substantial assistance from the HSE for upgrading of their practices, and introducing the necessary technology systems to integrat with Hospitals and PCRS. And all this assistance is given to assist the GP with his public patients. A lot of GPS also have very substantial panels of private patients. The income from this panel is not divulged publicly.

The GP can claim a part of the cost of the locum in a limitied number of situations (this is less than half the actual cost /BTW and this figure is included in the list of fees and subsidies published).

The Grant for staff is also published as GP's income in the list of fee's and subsidies so it appears as if it is the GP's income directly.

The subsidies to upgrade technology were withdrawn in the FEMPI cuts quite a number of years ago so your info is out of date.

Private income is not published publically unles the GP/GP's are set up as a limited company (eg D-Doc publishes it's full list of private incone )

looksee

Simple answer, yes GPs get a pension if they pay into one. Like anyone else, if they made no attempt to save or pay into one during their working life they would be entitled to a non-contributory pension, but it is means tested

A GP running a surgery is an employer running a business, the pension etc situation would be the same as if he were a person with a shop or a factory.

Of course the Government pays subsidies to GPs, if they didn't people with medical cards would not be able to avail of free services. And to say the money being paid by paying patients pays the cost of the locum is just nonsense, what about all the expenses of running the premises and the other staff?

It is no harm to discuss the financing and funding of health services, but this is not AH, don't let it get into one of those pointless, thoughtless 'he's better off than me' discussions.