Should connections let Camelot go for the Triple Crown?

MoscowFlyer

Personally I think it's too big an opportunity to let go. I'd enter him all day but Im not risking anything

kincsem

No

If he wins it he will be remembered for ever. If he loses the St Leger then he is still a 2000 Guineas and Derby winner.
Do the owners need to be concerned about his stud fees if he loses the St Leger? No imo.

tryfix

No

They should, as there aren't many opportunities theyll get to do it. I'd rather see him take on Frankel in the Juddmonte, it's time that horse had a bit of a challenge. If Frankel's going to go down as one of the alltime greats, he needs put a horse like Camelot to the sword over 10f.

Slattsy

No

I'd def go for it, would be folly not too. There's no 3 yr old around to get near him.

Wonder will he stay in training at a 4 yr old though. That will determine what races he goes for for the rest of the season.

swimming in a sea

No

tryfix wrote: »

They should, as there aren't many opportunities theyll get to do it. I'd rather see him take on Frankel in the Juddmonte, it's time that horse had a bit of a challenge. If Frankel's going to go down as one of the alltime greats, he needs put a horse like Camelot to the sword over 10f.

All I hope is we don't see frankel, Camelot and st Nicholas abbey trying to avoid each other all summer. If I was to bet I'd say they'll never meet, hope i'm wrong

MoscowFlyer

No

As a racing fan it's sad we will never get to see the best of the best go head to head but I do understand it's because of what they will do after they stop racing. From a purely selfish POV I'd love to see the likes of Frankel/SNA/Camelot in a race together over some sort of catch distance.

Can you imagine the buzz?

HigginsJ

MoscowFlyer wrote: »

As a racing fan it's sad we will never get to see the best of the best go head to head but I do understand it's because of what they will do after they stop racing. From a purely selfish POV I'd love to see the likes of Frankel/SNA/Camelot in a race together over some sort of catch distance.

Can you imagine the buzz?

1m2f Camelot v Frankel be amazing. But it's highly unlikely. SNA can stay at 1m4f and take on so you think.

klairondavis

I don't think there's too much to gain by going to the St Leger. It's a nothing race these days and he'd win it with his head in his chest. Sea The Stars didn't lose anything by not going to Doncaster. It would be great to see them having a crack at Frankel in the Juddmonte. He'd certainly have a chance getting the 3yo allowance and being a guaranteed stayer. It looks like Frankel will get another two furlongs but you never know until they go and do it.

mdwexford

Ledger is crap alright.

King George and Arc way more important obviously.

the groutch

No

could go King George/Irish Derby - St Leger - Breeder's Cup Turf

chinguetti

They should race Frankel over 10f in York and avoid the Ledger. The Triple Crown will do little for racing in general but racing Frankel would do a lot for racing. Camelot would have more to gain than lose in a clash between them and it would be something to savour.

However, from what was said today they are going for the Ledger and its a question of what races in between.

Harry Angstrom

No

I'd love to see him go for the St. Leger. After 40 odd years, people still talk about Nijinsky completing the Triple Crown. I think it's a great mark of a horse's ability to show the speed to win a Guineas, the flexibilty to handle the mile and a half of Epsom's roller coaster track, and the outright stamina to win a Leger. I don't think John Magnier will be worrying too much about Camelot's stud value. As the natural successor to his sire Montjeu (and the only son of Montjeu to win a Group 1 over a mile as a 3yo or older), he'll easily get quality mares sent to him.
He could still go for the Arc even if he runs in the St Leger. Alleged got beat in the Leger and went on to win the Arc in the same year, and even though Nijinsky got beat in the Arc, most people remember him today for winning the Triple Crown. I'd love to see a Triple Crown winner in my lifetime and I think Camelot is the ideal horse for it.

unitedrover

No

Im all for history being made. I was disappointed STS didnt try it but understandable all the same. Hope Camelot will go there. Chances are that he'll scare away any credible opposition and he will get a fairly soft race. Then onto the Arc!

Backstreet Moyes

Personally i think he will go up against Frankel. Aiden thrown everything he could at Sea the Stars. He bought Excellabration to try take on Frankel. Now he finally has a horse that could beat Frankel i cant see him passing up the opportunity to take him on.

UrbanSea

No, the modern day triple crown in all reality is the Guineas/Derby/Arc.

The Leger is a poor race

Nulty

No

UrbanSea wrote: »

No, the modern day triple crown in all reality is the Guineas/Derby/Arc.

The Leger is a poor race

Horses make races. If horses like Camelot don't race in the St Leger, then that's the reason it's a poor race.

NaiveMelodies

No

I'd love if he ran in the Arc, epic race, but as nulty said, camelot in the leger would make it an epic race.

kksaints

No

Would love to see him do it. Would be a fan of him going for the Irish Derby, St Ledger and Arc for the rest of the season.

UrbanSea

How would it be an epic race?

The Arc would be a far superior race. How would a mile and three quarter 3 year old race with a 1/3 favourite be better than a mile and a half all age race with the best horses from all over Europe

RichieLawlor

They will avoid Frankel, he is by Galileo so Coolmore already have a vested interest in him.

Id say Irish Derby then the St Leger for him

RichieLawlor

UrbanSea wrote: »

How would it be an epic race?

The Arc would be a far superior race. How would a mile and three quarter 3 year old race with a 1/3 favourite be better than a mile and a half all age race with the best horses from all over Europe

Of course it would be epic if Camelot runs, if he wins the St Leger it would be a bigger story than if he won the Arc running backwards

UrbanSea

The race itself wouldn't be. He'd prob scare off all of the opposition in a leger, unlikely to happen in an Arc

tryfix

No

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Of course it would be epic if Camelot runs, if he wins the St Leger it would be a bigger story than if he won the Arc running backwards

He would be using the Leger as a prep race for the Arc, there's 3 weeks between them.

If he goes for the Irish Derby, King George and the St Leger, he'll probably have had enough racing by the time of the Arc and it'll expecting an awful lot of him to take the Arc.

If they skip the King George and run him in the St Leger and Arc, they're taking a big risk on him doing what no O'Brien 3yo has ever been able to do and that's win an Arc.

If he does't beat his elders in his 3yo career, his rating will be poor. You can't have a legend of a 3yo who never beat his elders. That's a tricky problem they'll have, if he's going for the St Leger he'll have to make his international rating by destroying a King George field.

Raisins

RichieLawlor wrote: »

They will avoid Frankel, he is by Galileo so Coolmore already have a vested interest in him.

Id say Irish Derby then the St Leger for him

Did they not buy a stake in Frankel too? I thought I read that somewhere.

I'd like to see the horse run in Ireland so I can see it run in the flesh but I guess that's extremely unlikely.

Do people reckon he'll go to the Breeders Cup?

Colonel Sanders

No

I'm thinking similar to Tryfix, in fact I'm almost thinking that if they do decide St Leger it's almost 100% certain he'd stay in training as a 4yo to contest races like The Arc & King George

On the other hand his exceptional sire is dead, they need a replacement for him. Motivator & Authorised haven't set the world on fire & the jury is still out re Hurricane Run. Pour Moi is now at Coolmore but hasn't proven himself either way yet, nor will he for several years

Purely for commercial reasons I'm thinking King George & Arc. If he wins both he retires in a blaze of publicity. If he goes the Leger route the Arc will be a hugely tough ask & could damage him commercially unless he races on next year.

For me heart says go for the triple crown but head says if I was a Coolmore partner I'd be looking at it from a different angle

gscully

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I'm thinking similar to Tryfix, in fact I'm almost thinking that if they do decide St Leger it's almost 100% certain he'd stay in training as a 4yo to contest races like The Arc & King George

On the other hand his exceptional sire is dead, they need a replacement for him. Motivator & Authorised haven't set the world on fire & the jury is still out re Hurricane Run. Pour Moi is now at Coolmore but hasn't proven himself either way yet, nor will he for several years

Purely for commercial reasons I'm thinking King George & Arc. If he wins both he retires in a blaze of publicity. If he goes the Leger route the Arc will be a hugely tough ask & could damage him commercially unless he races on next year.

For me heart says go for the triple crown but head says if I was a Coolmore partner I'd be looking at it from a different angle

I'm inclined to agree. Coolmore have kept horses in training because none really excelled as 3yos. Camelot is a different beast to anything they've had in recent years and risking him as a 4yo might be too much. He may well be up there with Sea The Stars and Zarkava, but he won't prove that by going for a soft St Leger.

RichieLawlor

Raisins wrote: »

Did they not buy a stake in Frankel too? I thought I read that somewhere.

You are probably thinking of Canford Cliffs.

Coolmore couldn't offer Khalid Abdullah enough money for a share in Frankel

Colonel Sanders

No

RichieLawlor wrote: »

You are probably thinking of Canford Cliffs.

Coolmore couldn't offer Khalid Abdullah enough money for a share in Frankel

I'd assume Juddemonte have learned their lesson from flogging Danehill for £4m back in the day.

Never heard of any Coolmore involvement with Frankel but I'd assume they wouldn't be afraid to support him being by the 2nd coming in Galileo (and being an exceptional racehorse in his own right of course)

They did have (and may still have) a foal share agreement with Coolmore. They send a significant number of mares to Coolmore stallions, and both keep half the foals, taking it in turns having first pick. Think Jim Bolger had a similar arrangement. There was a thread on Betfair a while back about it.

HigginsJ

It would be too good to be true.....

http://www.attheraces.com/article.aspx?hlid=525368&lid=&raceid=&title=Curragh+option+for+Camelot&ref=atrPA+Racing+Feed&nav=&sub=&day=Tue

tryfix

No

I'd rather see him miss the Irish Derby, take the King George against the older horses, have his Arc prep in the St Leger and then try and take the Arc like a well placed three year old champion should be able to do.

Nice CV for stud. Champion 2yo, Triple Crown winning Champion 3yo and King George and Arc winner.

HigginsJ

tryfix wrote: »

I'd rather see him miss the Irish Derby, take the King George against the older horses, have his Arc prep in the St Leger and then try and take the Arc like a well placed three year old champion should be able to do.

Nice CV for stud. Champion 2yo, Triple Crown winning Champion 3yo and King George and Arc winner.

Dont think it would be possible to win the Leger and the Arc. Too close together no? They could go Irish Derby, then a break, prep race in Ireland and then the Leger.

Triple crown secured and then keep him in training at 4 for the KG, Arc and Breeders Cup. Simples

Slattsy

No

I doubt he will be kept in training at 4. I doubt he will do both the Leger and Arc. Irish Derby a huge possibility, they've done it with High Chapperal and Galileo.

tryfix

No

HigginsJ wrote: »

Dont think it would be possible to win the Leger and the Arc. Too close together no? They could go Irish Derby, then a break, prep race in Ireland and then the Leger.

Triple crown secured and then keep him in training at 4 for the KG, Arc and Breeders Cup. Simples

The Leger is on the 15th sept the same weekend as the usual Arc trials in Longchamp on the 16th sept. The Arc is on the 7th October.

Why not beat the older horses with the WFA allowance this year, it'd do wonders for his International Classification rating. Stupid St Leger ruining all my plans for Camelot.:)

John Oxx, gave Sinndar a break after the Irish Derby, then Arc Trial, then Arc, while the wonderful Sea The Stars took his big 10f races month by month almost perfectly spaced out.

O'Briens High Chaparral, went to the Irish Derby, then straight to the Arc where he finished 3rd.

Irish Derby, St Leger, Arc?

I see they didn't run Galileo in the Arc at all, so maybe they won't be bothered about running Camelot in it either.

HigginsJ

Slattsy wrote: »

I doubt he will be kept in training at 4. I doubt he will do both the Leger and Arc. Irish Derby a huge possibility, they've done it with High Chapperal and Galileo.

Why do you think they will not keep him in training at 4?

They have been keeping horses in training more regularily of late and if he does go and do triple crown and not the Arc i'm sure they'll have to think about bringing him back.

Slattsy

No

HigginsJ wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

I doubt he will be kept in training at 4. I doubt he will do both the Leger and Arc. Irish Derby a huge possibility, they've done it with High Chapperal and Galileo.

Why do you think they will not keep him in training at 4?

They have been keeping horses in training more regularily of late and if he does go and do triple crown and not the Arc i'm sure they'll have to think about bringing him back.

For the same reason Sea the Stars didn't stay in training, he'd nothing to prove.

Sport for Business 2012

No

The Leger has declined but don't underestimate the value of the 'Triple Crown' as an achievement. To win over 8,12 and 14 furlongs is an achievement at any level never mind in classics. John Magnier's interview after the race on Saturday suggested there was something about growing alder that made history more important. That indicated to me they would go for Doncaster.

Ask most general sports fans above a certain age to name a racehorse and the three top answers will be Red Rum, Shergar and Nijinsky. Camelot will not emulate the first, will hopefully not fall to the same fate as the second but could repeat the feat of the third.

Meeting Frankel would be good for the converted, winning the triple crown would be better for the sport.

Slattsy

No

HigginsJ wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

I doubt he will be kept in training at 4. I doubt he will do both the Leger and Arc. Irish Derby a huge possibility, they've done it with High Chapperal and Galileo.

Why do you think they will not keep him in training at 4?

They have been keeping horses in training more regularily of late and if he does go and do triple crown and not the Arc i'm sure they'll have to think about bringing him back.

For the same reason Sea the Stars didn't stay in training, he'd nothing to prove.

swimming in a sea

No

tryfix wrote: »

I see they didn't run Galileo in the Arc at all, so maybe they won't be bothered about running Camelot in it either.

I think around that time, coolmore were a bit obsessed with America, they sent Galileo to run in the breeders cup classic, he didn't handle the ground at all and then went to stud with question marks.
But has been a great success at stud as a turf sire, I don't think he has had any success in breeding dirt horse.