Weightlifting - it's actually pretty easy

Hanley

Inspired by Ste's post in another thread, I wanted to start this one...

Scuba Ste wrote: »

The lifts are actually not that difficult to learn (at least not as sometimes claimed)

I'd definitely be of the same opinion as Ste here. I think with good solid one on one coaching, they're very learnable, very quickly. Especially if you've a training background, and no movement issues.

Anyone care to share some thoughts?

(for the sake of this thread lets assume "learning" them is getting to a point where you;re cleaning and snatching and they actually look like proper cleans and snatches - albeit not technically perfect)

token

Hanley wrote: »

Especially if you've a training background, and no movement issues.

Yep I think they are relatively easy* assuming those two points are covered. From what I've seen in ECB with anybody new the main problem is acquiring the flexibility for the lifts. The older they are the longer this is likely to take.

*depending on your definition of easy. It'll still take a few months to look reasonable.

Gummy Panda

what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me :pac:

Hanley

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me :pac:

If gymfreak can learn to snatch....

Tbh I think a lot of it is to do with segmental stages so that the trainee doesn't even need to think about the full lift.

Eg for snatch (and this is just what I like and have seen work recently, others may disagree)
**assume adequate mobility, OH squat and drop snatch done by now...
1) start the bar from mid thigh, stand up tall
2) from mid thigh, move the bar up to the crease and jump tall
3) same as step 2, pull the elbows high and back (to keep the bar close)
4) same as step 3, punch the bar over head and immediately get down to OH squat
5) then worry about going off the floor

What methods do others use?

Scuba Ste

Well I agree with Hanley's OP.

I think you can realistically coach someone to power clean in 4-6 weeks training twice per week. If they have good mobility and athleticism you can coach the full lifts in a similar time frame (longer to teach the three lifts santch/clean/jerk because it's three lifts instead of one). In my experience, mobility/flexibility are by far the biggest obstacles in teaching someone the lifts. Your usually trying to get their mobility to catch up with their technical ability.

Learning progression wise I use this:

1. OH Squat-as deep as comfortable, keeping the back straight
2. Snatch balance/drop (bar starts on shoulders not overhead)
3. Snatch from the hip
4. Snatch-bar at hip-pause-bar to below knee-pause-back to hip-pause-jump and catch overhead
5. Snatch from below knee-same as above without pausing
6. First pull-use lats to push bar back toward the body off the floor to the knee
7. Full snatch

3, 4 and 5 is basically Glenn Pendlay's progrssion and then the other stuff is added in as needed. The first few session will be almost exclusively from the hang, moving onto the floor when that gets better.

See, simples.

cambridge

I wanted to learn how to Olympic lift for about 10 years but I was warned off them by coaches in other sports because they "require proper coaching" and are "extremely technical".

Anyway, I started working on them myself earlier this year. I had poor strength but good mobility so I could get into the snatch positions almost straight away.

I went through the Pendlay warmups and after a few weeks got some technical instruction. I can snatch light weights now*

I think they are the type of thing that you could tape a video of yourself and put it on the internet and you'd get loads of people pointing out loads of mistakes. Perhaps the technicality of it becomes more apparent when you actually start lifting heavy weights.

Having said that, I am a complete beginner and I can't even Power clean.

I'd be curious to see how many people can walk through the door and have the mobility for the snatch. I think it's a big "if" in the original question.

I think that if i had to work on mobility for like 6 months before I got do a decent snatch I would have quit and done something else.

*imo

dylbert

6 months ago I had absolutely no experience in barbell training never mind the olympic lifts. Now after 2 Oly sessions a week I can snatch 50kg and c&j 65kg at 67kg body weight, their not big numbers and my technique isn't great but I am getting the weight overhead and I'm improving by the week. Don't think I could have done it without proper coaching though. I think when I started to understand the mechanics of the lifts it helped allot, like high elbows is about pulling yourself under the bar rather than trying to lift the bar higher.

Mellor

I included them in my lifting, mostly power cleans. Starting low and slowly adding to them weekly.

My form got better at moderate weight, look proper compared to muscling it up before. But once I go for a max attempt (appraoching BW) it falls apart a bit and looks crap.

Then i gave up. i'll no doubt go back and struggle some more in the future.

Barry.Oglesby

That's a bit like saying "walking is pretty easy assuming you have both feet". I think the coaching in Ireland is pretty hard to come by, and the movement issues are always a challenge.

From a point of view of someone who works with large groups, if I want to do power work, I could spend a long long time working on how to snatch, or I can have them bounding within 5 minutes. I often only have 15 minutes of actual work time with a group before training.

The issues are not with the lifts themselves, but the practicalities of implementation. We're not in the USA where there are 15 platforms in a high school gym and a team of coaches.

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The issues are not with the lifts themselves, but the practicalities of implementation. We're not in the USA where there are 15 platforms in a high school gym and a team of coaches.

This.

I often have 20-25 lads in the gym and teaching the clean to that many doesn't give enough bang for buck when there's only 1 coach.

I agree with the post though.

gymfreak

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me :pac:

It's this one that gets me!!!

Edwardius

I don't understand the fear thing. I'm ten times as scared of squats than snatches as there's more time to think about the thing that's trying to crush you! Jerks cause some fear but you just have to turn your brain off. No good has ever resulted from thinking about stuff.

J-Fit

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

That's a bit like saying "walking is pretty easy assuming you have both feet". I think the coaching in Ireland is pretty hard to come by, and the movement issues are always a challenge.

From a point of view of someone who works with large groups, if I want to do power work, I could spend a long long time working on how to snatch, or I can have them bounding within 5 minutes. I often only have 15 minutes of actual work time with a group before training.

The issues are not with the lifts themselves, but the practicalities of implementation. We're not in the USA where there are 15 platforms in a high school gym and a team of coaches.

I'd agree with you there but it doesn't answer the original question.

Personally, I don't think they are that easy to teach because when you try to describe it verbally, people often struggle to understand what you mean; "pull yourself under the bar". It sounds right to those who have done a snappy, deep squat clean but for those yet to experience it.......

It does help if you can do the lift proficiently yourself. Even at my stage of development, I reckon if I posted an online video of myself, people would still legitimately find small errors in my technique and I've been at it for more than 10 years.

I start off by teaching constituent lifts like for clean, RDL and Front Squat, and Push Press, and then filling in the gaps by working from the ground up, power shrugs, clean pulls, high pulls.

Brian?

gymfreak wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me :pac:

It's this one that gets me!!!

Thats a little odd IMO, squat and bench are far more intimidating. Dumping a clean or snatch is simple compared to being pinned under a bar when benchin.

Gummy Panda

briankeating wrote: »

gymfreak wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me :pac:

It's this one that gets me!!!

Thats a little odd IMO, squat and bench are far more intimidating. Dumping a clean or snatch is simple compared to being pinned under a bar when benchin.

I meant that more in general terms as in holding yourself back from progressing on a lift due to fear of injury from the weight even you're physical capable of lifting it.

Edwardius

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I meant that more in general terms as in holding yourself back from progressing on a lift due to fear of injury from the weight even you're physical capable of lifting it.

Getting over this comes with practice, if you're +-5% on something you know you can always lift then commiting should be no problem.

Missing isn't so bad, the bar is going to go where it's going to go, you just have to get out of the way! Even if you drop the thing on yourself, there should be enough clearance between the bar and the floor to prevent squashing.

In terms of injury, your tissues should be almost accustomed to the weight you're attempting so that missing it shouldn't put too much strain on your joints i.e. it's probably not a good idea to go for a 30kg PB on something.

It's hard to tell yourself this though, you probably need a few hundred reps under your belt.

Barry.Oglesby

Okay I interpreted the original post a little differently. I thought from a coaching point of view and not an individual.

Firstly I'm a level 1 IAWLA coach... I think they call that a junior coach or apprentice coach or something now... but I had lifted a bit before the certification. Ironically, I lifted less once I got qualified due to working in a facility that didn't encourage the lifts, and I haven't coached anyone the snatch in 3 years. I think there are a lot of guys out there like me; technically qualified to teach the lifts from some insurance point of view, but with too little time under the bar and too little face time with trainees. Would you really want to be coached to weighlift by a guy who isn't dedicated to it? I regularly get asked to coach the lifts, and I always pass these people on to ECB, Hercs etc. My thinking is that if people are genuinely interested in seeing a progression technically in Ireland, then they should probably not try to ham it along by themselves, but should be apprenticing in one of the centres of excellence.

So I think they're easy to learn, but it's a sport and a craft and if you want to learn it or coach it then you should be apprenticed to someone to learn the craft of it.

Actually I think that about a lot of things.

cambridge

What's the story with the level one coaching?

Do you have to be able to lift a certain minimum standard with good form to get it?

Scuba Ste

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So I think they're easy to learn, but it's a sport and a craft and if you want to learn it or coach it then you should be apprenticed to someone to learn the craft of it.

I'd agree and I think that's something that is forgotten. Weightlifting is a sport and with that comes the time and commitment required to learn any new sport. It's probably not realistic or useful for most to learn a new sport for something that will only make up a small part of a small part of their overall training.

My throwaway point was just that there seems to be a fear of the lifts as some incredibly technical movements that really isn't true. The point that cambridge made that they are 'extremely technical' is a common misconception imo. I'm not sure now what was in the other thread but I think there were references to the complexity of the lifts too. Without a coach, yes they are difficult but so is any sport and so are a lot of other lifts.

And yeah having the mobility is a huge 'if' but it shouldn't take anything like 6 months to to get there either.

Scuba Ste

cambridge wrote: »

What's the story with the level one coaching?

Do you have to be able to lift a certain minimum standard with good form to get it?

To do the course, no you don't need to able to the lifts. There is an assessment at the end but it involves coaching someone else not doing the lifts yourself. Everything you need would be taught during the course. Most people starting out probably haven't done the lifts at all before.

gymfreak

Originally Posted by Gummy Panda
what about psychological issues?

I look at clean & jerks/snatches and think I'll never understand the mechanics of it even if shown. Then there is always the fear of the weight... maybe that one is just me

Originally Posted by gymfreak
It's this one that gets me

briankeating wrote: »

Thats a little odd IMO, squat and bench are far more intimidating. Dumping a clean or snatch is simple compared to being pinned under a bar when benchin.

I purely psyche myself out..that's it! If something feels heavy I tend to panic and kinda shutdown. Happens regularly. First night in ECB hangsnatched 25kg without knowing what I was doing/what I was supposed to do. Took me about 3 weeks to get back to that weight cos I'd kinda panic for now reason and not commit.

Benching and squatting used to bother me but now for benching I've learnt how to fail and roll the bar down my body and then lift it off and squatting I found new friends...safety bars:D:D You should see my failed attempt at squatting, probably the most calmest, quietest fails around.

It irriatates me..but hopefully I'll get more confident over time!

Scuba Ste

You know the rubber plates you use? They're so you can dump the bar safely when you miss.

GASMANN

gymfreak wrote: »

I purely psyche myself out..that's it! If something feels heavy I tend to panic and kinda shutdown. Happens regularly. First night in ECB hangsnatched 25kg without knowing what I was doing/what I was supposed to do. Took me about 3 weeks to get back to that weight cos I'd kinda panic for now reason and not commit.

Benching and squatting used to bother me but now for benching I've learnt how to fail and roll the bar down my body and then lift it off and squatting I found new friends...safety bars:D:D You should see my failed attempt at squatting, probably the most calmest, quietest fails around.

It irriatates me..but hopefully I'll get more confident over time!

i know what your on about and im a bit the same, i wouldnt call it a fear but defo a a lack of confidenence sometimes. and it can come from nowhere, i find one miss on a lift and it phucks the rest of the session. i used to over think it a lot afterwards which meant the next day you walk up for a lift and your already beat in the head.
i find dropping down about 10% and get a load of sets in over a few days and then begin to creep up again with a good working base, so sharp warmups and lots of work sets.

UL_heart_throb

How heavy does the weight have to be before you can justify ****ing it on the ground after you lift it? Or is it just me who has a problem with this? Saw some guys doing some crossfit style **** in the lifting platform dropping the empty bar on the ground making a lot of noise. Really started bugging me and I had to reach deep down within and use my mantra to prevent myself from clobbering them. Like fair enough if you're snatching like over 100kg and the only way to get it back to the ground is dropping it but what about those guys slamming bars like their trying to bounce them.

Just seems like brutish behaviour to me and these guys be better off in the ruffian sports.

Inspector Coptoor

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

Just seems like brutish behaviour to me and these guys be better off in the ruffian sports.

If you are on a platform, and are using bumpers, even it's only 2 x 5kg plates on the bar and you snatch it, I'd drop it to the floor every time, reset and go again if I was doing a double or triple.

Catching the bar/lowering the bar will just take too much out of you for the next lift.

The bumpers are designed to be dropped.
When I say dropped, I mean you keep your hands on the bar as it makes it way to the floor, I wouldn't slam the bar into the ground.

If you ever have to do 1 clean & 3 jerks, the hardest part for me is lowering the bar from overhead back to the rack position for the next jerk.

So again, I say, drop the bar, assuming you're on a platform and using bumpers.

UL_heart_throb

Yeah you'd probably **** yourself up lowering it too. When I started dropping my dead lifts from about 4 inches I found it a lot easier to do reps.

I dunno if can do it with a snatch though, i actually don't like loud noises.

Hanley

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If you are on a platform, and are using bumpers, even it's only 2 x 5kg plates on the bar and you snatch it, I'd drop it to the floor every time, reset and go again if I was doing a double or triple.

Catching the bar/lowering the bar will just take too much out of you for the next lift.

The bumpers are designed to be dropped.
When I say dropped, I mean you keep your hands on the bar as it makes it way to the floor, I wouldn't slam the bar into the ground.

If you ever have to do 1 clean & 3 jerks, the hardest part for me is lowering the bar from overhead back to the rack position for the next jerk.

So again, I say, drop the bar, assuming you're on a platform and using bumpers.

You'd drop 30kg becaue lowering it would take too much out of you?!

Inspector Coptoor

After a warm up with the bar, which I obviously don't drop, I go straight to 40, and yes, I'd drop every rep.

UL_heart_throb

what happened to barry's account?

UL_heart_throb

Does anyone play golf that also does the Olympic lifts? how do they compare 'technically'?

GASMANN

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If you are on a platform, and are using bumpers, even it's only 2 x 5kg plates on the bar and you snatch it, I'd drop it to the floor every time, reset and go again if I was doing a double or triple.

Catching the bar/lowering the bar will just take too much out of you for the next lift.

The bumpers are designed to be dropped.
When I say dropped, I mean you keep your hands on the bar as it makes it way to the floor, I wouldn't slam the bar into the ground.

If you ever have to do 1 clean & 3 jerks, the hardest part for me is lowering the bar from overhead back to the rack position for the next jerk.

So again, I say, drop the bar, assuming you're on a platform and using bumpers.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

After a warm up with the bar, which I obviously don't drop, I go straight to 40, and yes, I'd drop every rep.

have to agree with coopter, thats what the plates and platforms are for.

Hanley

GASMANN wrote: »

have to agree with coopter, thats what the plates and platforms are for.

Yes. And 5's and 10's are quite thin, don't resist lateral flexion too well, they're expensive and can quite easily warp/tear. And there's no real need to drop them if you're even moderately strong. It's just a respect thing IMO. Like yeah it's not your equipment, doesn't mean you can't at least be careful about it. You don't need to drop the weight when you're shoulder pressing in a commercial gym, why do it with considerably less, just because you can?

Ever dropped a 40kg from overhead onto a bouncy platform? If you're not careful it can go anywhere.

It's just unnecessary, in my opinion.

Inspector Coptoor

Not all 5s and 10s are thin.

Just sayin.

Dathai

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Not all 5s and 10s are thin.

Just sayin.

If they're thick they're probably still quite fragile. There's no way they could be strong without density (density == weight) while still being standard oly plates.

Scuba Ste

Have to agree with Hanley. I don't drop anything less than 40kg usually. If I don't have to drop it, I won't. It doesn't really take too much effort to catch 40kg and you get used it. If I'm using straps for doubles and triples I'll catch every rep but the last even on work sets. Same for rack jerks because it's just a pain in the hole lifting a bar back up or stripping it to put it back into the rack. It's something you build up to and get used to.

GASMANN

Hanley wrote: »

Yes. And 5's and 10's are quite thin, don't resist lateral flexion too well, they're expensive and can quite easily warp/tear. And there's no real need to drop them if you're even moderately strong. It's just a respect thing IMO. Like yeah it's not your equipment, doesn't mean you can't at least be careful about it. You don't need to drop the weight when you're shoulder pressing in a commercial gym, why do it with considerably less, just because you can?

Ever dropped a 40kg from overhead onto a bouncy platform? If you're not careful it can go anywhere.

It's just unnecessary, in my opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't drop much below 60/70kg, but I'm 110kg bw or there about. A person who weighs 50-60kg is going to need to let the weight drop when it's a lot lighter than me.
I don't think it's a respect issue in regards to the equipment as I was always taught how to drop a bar. We're not talking about a wwe style power slam into the platform.
I've dropped a few 40kg's alright but onto proper platforms, so they didn't go that far.
On the shoulder press comparison, I don't shoulder press from the floor so I just re-rack it.

andrewg82

cheers good advice guys