FYI: NCT fail for LED DRL operation

Matt Simis

Getting my Audi D2 S8 NCT'd in preparation for selling it, it failed on some silly but simple things. Most surpising was my "bottom Fog lights" which I told him were aftermarket (LED) DRLs, not fogs. Regardless he failed it as they dont have a switch.. now this is intentional and as designed, they come on with Engine start (and seemingly other activity, like opening doors, so work like Coming Home lights too) and go off when car is idle. They arent designed to have a switch.

These are sold online, Halfords and Motor Factors, so quite common (and the Auto on operation is more like OEM usage than basic models). Was told to get them passed an NCT I would have to pull the fuse for them. Bit odd really isnt it? :rolleyes:

Ive ordered alternative LEDs anyhow, that Ill wire into the Parking lights old school style. The alternative was to put the current ones on a relay but I couldnt find an ignition wire I was comfortable splicing and feel like swapping them out now anyhow.

-Corkie-

How will the likes of the new VRS fair out when they go for test???.

The car is actually safer with them as its more visible...

Chuck_Norris

Must have just been your tester Matt. Have aftermarket DRL's on the Octy, and nothing was said about them when I went thought the NCT 3 weeks ago.

When I installed them, I was supposed to splice into the parking lights, so that when they were turned on, the DRL's would switch off. But I didn't bother doing that, as I didn't see the point.

Yakuza

There are probably different rules for factory-fitted DRLs?

Chuck_Norris

Just thinking again Matt, if I recall correctly, your S8 doesn't have fog lights on it? So the tester bloke "mistook" your DRL's as fog lights? All an excuse to get a retest!!!! It's a money making scam I tells ya!!!

Voodoomelon

I have my angel eyes wired to ignition too, no switch at all. I always disable them though before NCT to be sure, not worth the hassle.

Matt Simis

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

Just thinking again Matt, if I recall correctly, your S8 doesn't have fog lights on it? So the tester bloke "mistook" your DRL's as fog lights? All an excuse to get a retest!!!! It's a money making scam I tells ya!!!

Yeah, I dont have separate Fog lights, they are in the main headlamp. I guess you might be right, he did call the LEDs fogs (despite clearly being useless for fog). He didnt back down when corrected either!

Anan1

I think I remember reading somewhere that there's a legal minimum height above the road for headlights. I, for one, would be delighted if the current crop of LED DRLs had to be removed!

Mr Magners

Anan1 wrote: »

I think I remember reading somewhere that there's a legal minimum height above the road for headlights. I, for one, would be delighted if the current crop of LED DRLs had to be removed!

Have to agree, there's so many cars out there now who have gone totally OTT with them. Passats seem to be one of the worst offenders, many of them having one LED light bar on either side and another in the middle for good measure!!

pcardin

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

All an excuse to get a retest!!!! It's a money making scam I tells ya!!!

In this case the retest would be visual without involving equipment and free so hardly a money making scam I tells ya!!!

Chuck_Norris

Anan1 wrote: »

I think I remember reading somewhere that there's a legal minimum height above the road for headlights. I, for one, would be delighted if the current crop of LED DRLs had to be removed!

You are correct. There is indeed a minimum height requirement for them. As well as there being a requirement for them to be a minimum/ maximum distance apart. These requirements were very clearly shown on the installation diagram that came with my after market DRL's.

I followed those requirements religiously, and as they are OEM DRL's, have no issue with having them on the car.

I do agree with your comment about some cars out there that are festooned with extra lights. But I don't think the fact that they are LED's has anything to do with it. I personally think that there have always been, and will always be idiots who go OTT with their modifications.

The sole reason I installed DRL's in my car was to make it more visible. Had nothing to do with aesthetics.

Chuck_Norris

pcardin wrote: »

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

All an excuse to get a retest!!!! It's a money making scam I tells ya!!!

In this case the retest would be visual without involving equipment and free so hardly a money making scam I tells ya!!!

I know. My sarcasm must not have translated very well with my wink at the end of my post.

Berty

Anan1 wrote: »

I think I remember reading somewhere that there's a legal minimum height above the road for headlights. I, for one, would be delighted if the current crop of LED DRLs had to be removed!

That would truly scupper the likes of Mercedes, Volvo and Skoda which have their cars with LED DRLs in their fog lights.(probably more marques)

Matt Simis

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

The sole reason I installed DRL's in my car was to make it more visible. Had nothing to do with aesthetics.

I wanted them for the better to be seen safety aspect, but once installed I actually really liked the way they break up the emptiness of the lower bumper. Audi did too, the facelift A/S8 has foglights in this location.

There are tacky LED/DRL installs out there for sure (purple, blue hue lights, long winding stripes etc) but I think its way OTT to state all DRLs should be removed.

slimjimmc

Beer Baron wrote: »

That would truly scupper the likes of Mercedes, Volvo and Skoda which have their cars with LED DRLs in their fog lights.(probably more marques)

Why? DRLs are not headlamps so don't need to conform to headlamp regulations.

Chuck_Norris

slimjimmc wrote: »

Beer Baron wrote: »

That would truly scupper the likes of Mercedes, Volvo and Skoda which have their cars with LED DRLs in their fog lights.(probably more marques)

Why? DRLs are not headlamps so don't need to conform to headlamp regulations.

Correct. But there are regulations regarding a minimum height and minimum/ maximum
distance apart.

Chuck_Norris

Matt Simis wrote: »

There are tacky LED/DRL installs out there for sure (purple, blue hue lights, long winding stripes etc) but I think its way OTT to state all DRLs should be removed.

Agree completely here Matt. Some of the after market kits I've seen are almost laughable. Some of them almost look like rope lighting that has been bonded to the car.

dahamsta

If it was me, in my pig-headedness, I'd challenge it; because it's bollocks. Go on Matt, do it for the Boardsies, even for the entertainment value. It'd be up there with tbh's hit-n-run thread.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

I wanted them for the better to be seen safety aspect, but once installed I actually really liked the way they break up the emptiness of the lower bumper. Audi did too, the facelift A/S8 has foglights in this location.

There are tacky LED/DRL installs out there for sure (purple, blue hue lights, long winding stripes etc) but I think its way OTT to state all DRLs should be removed.

I read an article ages ago about the misuse of front fogs, but I think it's equally applicable to low-mounted DRLs. Basically, they said they were dangerous because of the way the human brain assesses distance - we see a car with low-mounted lights as being further away than it actually is.

Our man in Havana

*****KLAXON*****

Chuck_Norris

Our man in Havana wrote: »

*****KLAXON*****

Just out of curiosity, but do DRL's fall under the same category as the dreaded f**lights? In relation to threads that is.

CiniO

In relation to DRL's here's some technical requirements from ECE48

6.19.
DAYTIME RUNNING LAMP (Regulation No. 87) 13/
6.19.1.
Presence
Mandatory on motor vehicles. Prohibited on trailers.
6.19.2.
Number
Two.
6.19.3.
Arrangement
No special requirement.
6.19.4.
Position
6.19.4.1.
In width: the distance between the inner edges of the apparent surfaces in the
direction of the reference axes shall not be less than 600 mm.
This distance may be reduced to 400 mm where the overall width of the vehicle is
less than 1,300 mm.
6.19.4.2.
In height: above the ground not less than 250 mm nor more than 1,500 mm.
6.19.4.3.
In length: at the front of the vehicle. This requirement shall be deemed to be
satisfied if the light emitted does not cause discomfort to the driver either directly,
or indirectly through the devices for indirect vision and/or other reflecting
surfaces of the vehicle.
6.19.5.
Geometric visibility
Horizontal:
Vertical:
outwards 20° and inwards 20°.
upwards 10° and downwards 10°.
6.19.6.
Orientation
Towards the front.
6.19.7.
Electrical connections
6.19.7.1.
The daytime running lamps shall be switched ON automatically when the device
which starts and/or stops the engine is in a position which makes it possible for
the engine to operate. However, daytime running lamps may remain OFF while
the automatic transmission control is in the park or neutral position, while the
parking brake is applied or after the propulsion system is activated but the vehicle
was not set in motion for the first time.
The daytime running lamps shall switch OFF automatically when the front fog
lamps or headlamps are switched ON, except when the latter are used to give
intermittent luminous warnings at short intervals. 14/
Furthermore, the lamps referred to in paragraph 5.11. are not switched ON when
the daytime running lamps are switched ON.
(CiniO note: 5.11. refers to sidelights)
6.19.7.2.
If the distance between the front direction-indicator lamp and the daytime running
lamp is equal or less than 40 mm, the electrical connections of the daytime
running lamp on the relevant side of the vehicle may be such that either:
(a)
It is switched OFF; or
(b)
Its luminous intensity is reduced during the entire period (both ON and OFF
cycle) of activation of a front direction-indicator lamp.
6.19.7.3.
If a direction-indicator lamp is reciprocally incorporated with a daytime running
lamp, the electrical connections of the daytime running lamp on the relevant side
of the vehicle shall be such that the daytime running lamp is switched OFF during
the entire period (both ON and OFF cycle) of activation of the direction-indicator
lamp.
6.19.8.
Tell-tale
Closed-circuit tell-tale optional.
6.19.9.
Other prescriptions
No prescription.

In short DRLs must be 60cm apart from each other (unless car is less than 1.3m wide - then 40cm apart between DRLs is fine).
They must be between 25cm and 1.5m above the ground.
They should switch on automatically when you start the engine, and they should turn off automatically, if you turn on sidelights, dipped headlights, full beam headlights, or foglights, except when used only for flash.

If they don't fulfill those conditions, then they are not really DRLs.

TestTransmission

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, but do DRL's fall under the same category as the dreaded f**lights? In relation to threads that is.

No, of course not. Now, no more foglights!

shawnee

Saw a golf recently that had two additional spotlights added to the grill. One was broken and didnt work. So the guy just covered both of them with a black cover and they were not considered for the nct and it passsed

tossy

You are not going to like it Matt Simis but i hope the NCT fail every car with these stick on LED strips sure half the cars that come with them from the factory look terrible

Matt Simis

dahamsta wrote: »

If it was me, in my pig-headedness, I'd challenge it; because it's bollocks. Go on Matt, do it for the Boardsies, even for the entertainment value. It'd be up there with tbh's hit-n-run thread.

I failed on Tie Rod End (Inner) too, so there was no point in arguing the does it need a switch aspect of DRLs.

tossy wrote: »

You are not going to like it Matt Simis but i hope the NCT fail every car with these stick on LED strips sure half the cars that come with them from the factory look terrible

The NCT arent Tossy's style police.. He didnt have a problem with them visually (or tastefully), only that "all lights require a switch".

I wouldnt consider mine a "stick on strip" anyhow, its a plastic box/bar like shape much like Audi's OEM on the S6 (or Merc's). I could drive with my Low Beams/Dips on to the same safety effect of course, but Id rather not put excessive wear and tear on the bulbs and assembly on back road bounces and spend the extra fuel on 110w of Low Beams vs maybe 6w of LEDs for the same (safety) effect. Its common sense.

Anan1 wrote: »

I read an article ages ago about the misuse of front fogs, but I think it's equally applicable to low-mounted DRLs. Basically, they said they were dangerous because of the way the human brain assesses distance - we see a car with low-mounted lights as being further away than it actually is.

All I can say is from experience as a driver (so viewing oncoming cars, not my DRLs) on back roads; I can see cars with lights (be they dips, LEDs etc) far far sooner than those without or those morons with their puny 5watt parking lights on. There is absolutely no way I could agree with your logic, its night and day, on backroads cars without lights are near invisible at a distance (which I need to know to plan an overtake) or in dark overhangs from trees in bright days.

And for the one article that makes the claim they cause confusion (never ever heard this before?), there are dozens of independent articles, research and corporate fleet reports that conclusively and concretely show Daytime Running Lights reduce(d) accidents.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

All I can say is from experience as the oncoming drivers on the back roads I drive every day I can see cars with lights (be they dips, LEDs etc) far far sooner than those without or those morons with their puny 5watt parking lights on. There is absolutely no way I could agree with your logic, its night and day, on backroads cars without lights are near invisible at a distance (which I need to know to plan an overtake) or in dark overhangs from trees in bright days.

And for the one article that makes the claim they cause confusion (?), there are dozens of independent articles, research and corporate fleet reports that conclusively and concretely show Daytime Running Lights reduce(d) accidents.

Come on now, we all know that lights make cars more visible. It's the positioning of the lights that's the issue.

pred racer

Do your lights comply with the regs above Matt? (im not getting in on the debate, just interested)

Any chance of a pic?

glynf

CiniO wrote: »

In relation to DRL's here's some technical requirements from ECE48



In short DRLs must be 60cm apart from each other (unless car is less than 1.3m wide - then 40cm apart between DRLs is fine).
They must be between 25cm and 1.5m above the ground.
They should switch on automatically when you start the engine, and they should turn off automatically, if you turn on sidelights, dipped headlights, full beam headlights, or foglights, except when used only for flash.

If they don't fulfill those conditions, then they are not really DRLs.

The above makes no sense. My car has factory fitted DRL's (A5, original of the species;)), and they are always on, when the sides, dipped and full beams on.

It's an 07, and I NCT'ed it last year and they failed me the first time as the front passenger light was slightly too high. This was because I removed it, and forgot to get it realigned. Did so and it sailed through second time.

Never a mention of the LED DRL's.

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

Come on now, we all know that lights make cars more visible. It's the positioning of the lights that's the issue.

Ok but given the option of having no lights or lights on at ground level, you are still going to actually see the car with lights and not see the other one, even if you allegedly misjudge the distance.

pred racer wrote: »

Do your lights comply with the regs above Matt? (im not getting in on the debate, just interested)
Any chance of a pic?

Probably, they are in the location the factory fogs (110watts of blindingness) are on the facelift model. I did read the regs as they are supplied when fitting, they are easily far enough apart from one another and before I lowered the car a bit would have high enough, now its borderline (likely 22cm not 25cm per regs, hard to guess, but close). Regardless, this wasnt the concern with the NCT guy at all, his problem was they came on automatically and off automatically.

Note as this is a light source in a photo that their brightness / contrast relative to surroundings are greatly exaggerated and the colour temp (hue) is also incorrect. These are dull weather photos from months back, further making them extra visible.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ok but given the option of having no lights or lights on at ground level, you are still going to actually see the car with lights and not see the other one, even if you allegedly misjudge the distance.

Are those the only two options?

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

Are those the only two options?

Or putting wear on Low Beams and spending my fuel powering old world (non-LED) lights as I mentioned.. yes?

Point being that even ground level (which I dont have) lights are clearly more beneficial than potentially confusing than having no lights, which upto 5years ago was the norm here. So I think the article you read missed the mark, its highlighting a potential minor problem thats presented with the solution to a major one.

tossy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Or putting wear on Low Beams and spending my fuel powering old world (non-LED) lights as I mentioned.. yes?

It's a 4.2 V8 - the old fashioned and perfectly fine Halogen fireballs drinking a little petrol are the least of your worries

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Or putting wear on Low Beams and spending my fuel powering old world (non-LED) lights as I mentioned.. yes?

Point being that even ground level (which I dont have) lights are clearly more beneficial than potentially confusing than having no lights, which upto 5years ago was the norm here. So I think the article you read missed the mark, its highlighting a potential minor problem thats presented with the solution to a major one.

Why are you so resistant to the concept of DRLs at headlight level?

MarkR

I think I've the same set, wired the same way actually. Did an NCT a few months back, but at that stage they weren't actually wired in. And I passed.

Could always just disconnect the plug behind the lights before you go in? Maybe cover them in black tape beforehand too!

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

Why are you so resistant to the concept of DRLs at headlight level?

Man, perhaps I should clarify I mean on this car!? There is no way of positioning them higher. I dont care where they are on other cars, headlight level is not only fine, its preferable. This thread is about my 1998 Audi S8, not DRLs on everything else.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Man, perhaps I should clarify I mean on this car!? There is no way of positioning them higher. I dont care where they are on other cars, headlight level is not only fine, its preferable. This thread is about my 1998 Audi S8, not DRLs on everything else.

Good to know we're in agreement, so - your previous posts were rather more general case.

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

Good to know we're in agreement, so - your previous posts were rather more general case.

Oh no, that wasnt the intention, I actually wanted them in the black stip under the main headlamp, but there wasnt enough space. I could have put those Passat special bendy light stripes on it, but they look super crap and dont really shine in any particular direction.

roadster5

Sorry folks and excuse my ignorance (perhaps this should be posted elsewhere),

Can I take it from this thread that a non-functioning foglight will be a NCT failure. One of my bulbs is gone ('02 XTrail) and I cannot for the life of me see how it can be changed without removing the front bumper - which seems extreme to say the least. NCT due next month

Rob

slimjimmc

roadster5 wrote: »

Sorry folks and excuse my ignorance (perhaps this should be posted elsewhere),

Can I take it from this thread that a non-functioning foglight will be a NCT failure. One of my bulbs is gone ('02 XTrail) and I cannot for the life of me see how it can be changed without removing the front bumper - which seems extreme to say the least. NCT due next month

Rob

No, an non-working fog lamp is not a failure item.
See pg 52 of the NCT manual (forum charter has a link)

mickdw

CiniO wrote: »

They should switch on automatically when you start the engine, and they should turn off automatically, if you turn on sidelights, dipped headlights, full beam headlights, or foglights, except when used only for flash.

If they don't fulfill those conditions, then they are not really DRLs.

glynf wrote: »

The above makes no sense. My car has factory fitted DRL's (A5, original of the species;)), and they are always on, when the sides, dipped and full beams on.

It's an 07, and I NCT'ed it last year and they failed me the first time as the front passenger light was slightly too high. This was because I removed it, and forgot to get it realigned. Did so and it sailed through second time.

Never a mention of the LED DRL's.

I agree with glynf. My A5 drls dont go off wth side lights, dipped or main beams and they most definitely are DRLs.
I think that there may have been a certain relaxation of that rule. My DRLs do reduce intensity when any additional lights are turned on. they also reduce in intensity on one side if that sides indicator is used.
I currently have disabled the function that dims the DRL when indicator is used as I think it looks terrible and it went through the NCT like this without issue.

roadster5

Thanks slimjimmc

Appreciated - I can relax and book the NCT

Rob

CiniO

glynf wrote: »

The above makes no sense. My car has factory fitted DRL's (A5, original of the species;)), and they are always on, when the sides, dipped and full beams on.

It's an 07, and I NCT'ed it last year and they failed me the first time as the front passenger light was slightly too high. This was because I removed it, and forgot to get it realigned. Did so and it sailed through second time.

Never a mention of the LED DRL's.

mickdw wrote: »

I agree with glynf. My A5 drls dont go off wth side lights, dipped or main beams and they most definitely are DRLs.
I think that there may have been a certain relaxation of that rule. My DRLs do reduce intensity when any additional lights are turned on. they also reduce in intensity on one side if that sides indicator is used.
I currently have disabled the function that dims the DRL when indicator is used as I think it looks terrible and it went through the NCT like this without issue.

All I quoted was EU regulations.
Maybe they just don't apply in Ireland.
Maybe there were not in force when your A5's were manufactured.
Or maybe just NCT don't give a hell about those rules.
I don't know which one is right.

Mc Love

Most of the cars nowadays have the DRL's but some are extra's (take for example the new mondeo) but I was talking to a manager in the dealer and they said that the DRL's dim when the sidelights come on as opposed to turning off as they should. Thats the way they work on mine anyway, as soon as the "lights" are turned on, the DRL's go off

ofcork

It seems to be up to the manufacturers so what way the lights operate and not legislation the same way i suppose some cars have separate brake lights and others use the tail lights.