best times to top land?

NewBeefFarmer

ive to go topping now, the grass is nice at the butt, but also long and wispy. its everywhere, and cant have me bullocks everywhere at once.
im thinking of topping and then let them in, or is it better to let them in first? ?



going forward, should i be topping in early may, . . like 5 inches off ground, to stop this long wispy grass. . . and probably again when need be. . .

thoughts welcome. . .

NBF

bbam

Not saying its right but we would top paddocks after they are grazed. You get the grass off and the topping encourages good fresh grass growth.

whelan1

i was told the other day that you shouldnt need to top if you manage your grass properly, that said we are starting topping today:o

pajero12

whelan1 wrote: »

i was told the other day that you shouldnt need to top if you manage your grass properly, that said we are starting topping today:o

Whoever told you that is a moron, topping encourages tillering, as well as getting rid of stalky grass that is unpalatable and unproductive.

BeeDI

pajero12 wrote: »

Whoever told you that is a moron, topping encourages tillering, as well as getting rid of stalky grass that is unpalatable and unproductive.

I don't own a topper! I more or less (more than less) don't need to top!
I have an old, old RP12 baler, which I use to bale grass which is getting ahead. Only make a few bales here and there and leave them to the neighbour contractor to wrap for me on his way home in the evening.
He does the main baling for me as well.

Would that qualify me for the title "moron", as I don't need to top.

pakalasa

whelan1 wrote: »

i was told the other day that you shouldnt need to top if you manage your grass properly.......

That's true, in an ideal world anyway. How many farmers with sheep have to top? They do the topping for them.
I never seem to have to top the fileds around at home. It's always the fragmented fields, that are harder to manage, that always need topping.

Farmer Pudsey

Very hard to keep quality grass unless you top the reality is that unless you have too little grass cattle will pick what they eat. Cattle will also be slow top eat down around dung pad's without effecting preformance.

Topping solves all the above it also stops docks fromm seeding if done early enough and keeps them weak, the same with ragworth and rushes, and if done twice a year will kill thistles. It also stops a dirty butt from forming at the base of the grass which can happen over a couple of years where cattle have refused to graze because of palability of grass.

Have you ever seen clumps of grass a round a field in the autuam where cattle have not grazed unless they are hungry they will not eat which effects preformance

bbam

But if you keep stock long enough on the paddock to eat it beyond topping I find they have little actual grass and won't be thriving.
In my limited experience it's better to move the stock on to good pasture and top, it brings on more quality grass behind stock and keeps stock thriving all the time which is the goal.

I'm still struggling to gauge when to move stock on. Too soon and I feel the paddock is under utilised and if they are kept too long the paddock is slow to recover. Then weather has to be taken into account too. It's a lot of learning and guesswork.

Bizzum

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

like 5 inches off ground, to stop this long wispy grass.

I would look on topping as a great grass management tool. I would top tighter than 5" though. Down to about 2" or so. Graze tight and top tight would what we would be trying to do.

Topping can check re-growth a little in very dry weather.

lakill Farm

I always top while stock are in the paddock/field. They will eat the topped material and it stops it sitting on the ground. If i top today at 11am, ill move them onto next paddock tomorrow morning.

whelan1

lakill Farm wrote: »

I always top while stock are in the paddock/field. They will eat the topped material and it stops it sitting on the ground. If i top today at 11am, ill move them onto next paddock tomorrow morning.

used to do that BUT what about the topped ragworth... its very palatable when dying- i dont have much but i have a fear of them eating it-

lakill Farm

whelan1 wrote: »

used to do that BUT what about the topped ragworth... its very palatable when dying- i dont have much but i have a fear of them eating it-

I dont have any, and before i bought my land and use to work with a farmer i would go out with the loaded and bucket and pull all the ragworth before id top. Hours of pain but it use to work :rolleyes:.

Would it be palatable within 10 - 12 hours?

whelan1

lakill Farm wrote: »

I dont have any, and before i bought my land and use to work with a farmer i would go out with the loaded and bucket and pull all the ragworth before id top. Hours of pain but it use to work :rolleyes:.

Would it be palatable within 10 - 12 hours?

dont know dont want to find out:D

lakill Farm

whelan1 wrote: »

dont know dont want to find out:D

I got my 6 year old newphew to pull docks almost headed out last year in 1 field. He did a good job and wount have near as many to do this year . Best €20 and a cornetto and lucozade sport ever

Bizzum

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

going forward, should i be topping.......

On no account try topping in reverse:D

You need to get a helicopter view of the situation going forward and reach for the low hanging fruit:D

bbam

Bizzum wrote: »

On no account try topping in reverse:D

You need to get a helicopter view of the situation going forward and reach for the low hanging fruit:D

Bizzum or Biffo ?

blue5000

I wonder would topping on a sunny afternoon when sugars are higher be better? It might make the cattle more inclined to clean it up?

I'm thinking of wrapping a few strong paddocks instead of topping, and skip ahead to shorter grass in the rotation.

Username John

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Very hard to keep quality grass unless you top the reality is that unless you have too little grass cattle will pick what they eat. Cattle will also be slow top eat down around dung pad's without effecting preformance.

Topping solves all the above it also stops docks from seeding if done early enough and keeps them weak, the same with ragworth and rushes, and if done twice a year will kill thistles. It also stops a dirty butt from forming at the base of the grass which can happen over a couple of years where cattle have refused to graze because of palability of grass.

Have you ever seen clumps of grass a round a field in the autuam where cattle have not grazed unless they are hungry they will not eat which effects preformance

Not sure I would agree with that statement re topping twice a year killing thistles.
We don't top as such, but we have an old mower that I use to cut the thistles & nettles in a few fields.
They seem to come back strong enough every year - it does seem to reduce ferns tho.

As for topping - I don't, but I can see the merits of it. I try to run two bunches of stock, and put in hog / dry sheep in after the lambs to bare the fields down.

Username John

lakill Farm wrote: »

I always top while stock are in the paddock/field. They will eat the topped material and it stops it sitting on the ground. If i top today at 11am, ill move them onto next paddock tomorrow morning.

Are you not losing a day of the cattle putting on weight then? I know they might pick through the cut material - but if they didn't think it was good enough to eat when it was growing, why would they eat it when its cut?

Now - the flip side of this is I see some lads cutting before they put cows into the field somtimes, I guess the idea being that if the field is heavy, then the wilted grass might be a bit more appealing? I guess as cow-men do it (and they can immediately see if milk quality falls) then it cant be that bad an idea Lakill

In the space of time it took me to write this, I have changed my mind a few times as to whether I think its a good idea or not to top and leave the cattle in the field overnight

axel7

The dead grass left behind is great natural manure. No need to have them picking for a full day. For most, the reason for topping in to improve performance in the next rotation, seems kind of counter-intuitive to having them feeling empty for a day.

PMU

I mentioned topping in my discussion group recently and was nearly shot! grass should be grazed so tight it shouldnt need topping,one of the benefits of low residuals.

axel7

They've a point but still think every paddock should get a run once (or twice) a year just to keep any weeds in line

rancher

Username John wrote: »

Are you not losing a day of the cattle putting on weight then? I know they might pick through the cut material - but if they didn't think it was good enough to eat when it was growing, why would they eat it when its cut? )

Same reason as they eat ragwort, cutting makes it more palatable, I always top 24 hrs before they move

Atilathehun

axel7 wrote: »

They've a point but still think every paddock should get a run once (or twice) a year just to keep any weeds in line

I used to have a topper, and used it regularly to keep pasture "looking" good!
Three years ago it died a death and I never bothered to replace it.
Three years on, there is no noticeable drop in performance of cattle.
I use less diesel.
I have more time for other stuff which needs doing!
Coming to the conclusion that us farmers do a lot of stuff which takes cash out of our pockets and puts sweet fkcu all back!!

axel7

You're probably right, we're definitely moving away from it over time too, it's probably just habit that we still give it a run once a year. I think most people's reason for doing it is because they're understocked. Especially now with paddock systems in place on most farms, everyone seems to have more grass to play around with.

AMurph1979

Topping is useful when weed control is poor as it prevents many of the common weeds from going to seed, for example ragworth and thistles.

maxxuumman

Pre-mow for the cows. Great in this weather

DMAXMAN

regardless of the rights or wrongs of topping the only way imo to do it is as low as possible.you want to have your regrowth like aftergrass

NewBeefFarmer

DMAXMAN wrote: »

regardless of the rights or wrongs of topping the only way imo to do it is as low as possible.you want to have your regrowth like aftergrass

think you have it there in that . .. .

im short a bit on stock, but topping will give the land a chance, as it was cut for silage 3 times in the last 2 summers. .

thanks for all the replies. . .

as some of ye mentioned, its a trial and error,,, get it right sooner or later. .

Farmer Pudsey

Username John wrote: »

Not sure I would agree with that statement re topping twice a year killing thistles.
We don't top as such, but we have an old mower that I use to cut the thistles & nettles in a few fields.
They seem to come back strong enough every year - it does seem to reduce ferns tho.

As for topping - I don't, but I can see the merits of it. I try to run two bunches of stock, and put in hog / dry sheep in after the lambs to bare the fields down.

If you have a lot of thistles try not cutting at all for 2-3 years and see what will happen if you top any of the noxious weeds you not only stop from seeding you weaken the root. It will not completly kill bot it will serious weaken.

PMU wrote: »

I mentioned topping in my discussion group recently and was nearly shot! grass should be grazed so tight it shouldnt need topping,one of the benefits of low residuals.

I heard loads of arguments about topping, 'what if it a dry year', 'cattle should graze down tight' also 'there is feeding in the grass seed'.

I find in my very limited experience that overall you are better off topping especially in late may, june and early july. You tend to have more grass than you can eat, if you have cattle near finishing and are feeding them ration they get a bit picky about the grass and you will have better quality grass in the next rotation without effecting cattle preformance. Very few dairy farmers fail to top this time of year as they can see it in the milk tank.

I also find as cattle are out since march 1 I am on the third rotation and there are a lot of dungpads that the cattle are fussy about.

Dont be daft

Might weigh in here too.

We've held the cattle tight on certain paddocks and by measuring the cover on the paddock I was able to tell that there wasnt enough DM to keep them going the whole day. Yet they'd take the extra day to clear the paddock totally.

This can only mean that they hadnt met half their DM intake for that day therefore probably lost half their potential weight gain. Now if someone could say they'd do above average the next day on fresh new grass that'd be great but I dont think thats the case

If your group is 20 bulls and your daily weight gain is halved then your losing about 10kgs of potential weight at the cheapest stage in feeding. With a 50% kill out at say 3.90 thats 20.28 you've lost.
Whats the cost of topping a 4 acre paddock? Then there's the argument that it'll clear a paddock a lot better than the cattle and scatter all the dung reducing patchy grass later on so improving the sward for the next round

Now by all means someone blow holes in my logic cos I'm debating buying a topper and I dont wanna be a busy fool

Muckit

Don't be daft don't be daft, You bring up alot of good points

I think everyone agrees that keeping the grass down tight will bring excellent regrowth. What is up for debate is how this is acheived, grazing tight or topping tight? Then as you rightly pointed out, there are the time and cost implications to consider.

It really depends on your system. With dry cattle, you're interested in them converting grass into kg of meat consistently (daily) and as cheaply as possible. They need to be given 'the best of the best' grass and plenty of it, in an efficient manner. They need to be treated like Royality.

I would totally agree with you that it is foolish to think that this type of stock will or should be asked to graze down tightly. The last day or two (depending on how stubborn you are) will be very unproductive days in putting meat on their backs.

Sucklers are a different story. Here you are firstly concerned with breeding good stock. Once you have live calves on the ground, your second concern is the cows efficiency in converting grass into milk. A cow is not royality and never will be. She is a worker. You need to make her work for you. You treat her fair, but you don't pamper her. She will eat alot of 'rubbish' that young growing beef stock won't.

Long story short. Topping is a necessity for good grass management. The extent to which it is required will depend on the stock type, grass growth, time of year and your grass management skills.

blue5000

Any drystock farmers running a bunch of sheep as a topper?