It just doesn't matter !!

Caoimhelicious

I had a very long philosophical chat with my dad the other day and after I felt so enlightened I said I'd share the knowledge with others..
I asked him the question if he believed in God and here is basically what he had to say
... at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if there is a god, or if there isn't.
We should be kind towards people and animals not because "We will be punished for our sins in the next life".
We should be kind to one another out of simple human decency, out of respect for other human beings, who hurt just as we hurt and feel just as we feel.

A lot of people make religion a principle, their way is the only way and any other person who believes in anything else is wrong, damned even. This can be said not only for those who are devout believers but it can also be said for the non believers. Those who canvass and stress there is no god, and who wont be happy until everyone accepts it.

But once again, it just doesn't matter.. So what if the old woman down the road goes to mass every Sunday, It's what she believes and we should respect her enough as a human being to leave her be, not berate her for believing in something THAT DOESN'T EXIST !
Just as we should respect the new family in the parish who don't attend mass every sunday, people shouldn't shun them either.

Recently an uncle of mine who would be an atheist gave a reading at a funeral, he was asked to so he kindly said he would (they didn't know he was an atheist). This is a great example of what I was talking about, he could have made a principle out of his beliefs, but he didn't, out of respect he read a prayer of the faithful and in doing so made a lot of the older relatives at the mass happy. In doing the reading he didn't betray any belief, he simply accommodated for the beliefs of others out of respect for them.

okay and?

are you posting this on the religious fora as well?

you do realise that everyone here would be quite happy to get on with their lives if all religious adherents were as harmless as miss little old lady going to mass?

ShooterSF

Ok people let's get this straight. If you are going to be out in the sun for a few hours wear a freaking hat. This place has gone crazy the last week.

ShooterSF

ShooterSF wrote: »

Ok people let's get this straight. If you are going to be out in the sun for a few hours wear a freaking hat. This place has gone crazy the last week.

I'm actually sitting here trying to work out what the point of all that was

Zillah

Most angry atheists are angry about the consequences of people's irrational beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. Faith healing, sexism, homophobia, guilt around sexuality, discrimination, tyranny, xenophobia, fear, shame and a litany of lives half-lived for empty promises and cruel bullying.

Coriolanus

I have to disagree. A universe where the laws of physics can be broken, st whim, by at least one anthropormorphic bbeing is fundamentally different to one where those laws are absolute.
It kind of does matter.

Caoimhelicious

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

Amtmann

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

Do you think clerics in Saudi Arabia will respect you if you're a lesbian and engage in lesbian acts? Do you think the dignity of your sexuality as a human being is respected in Ireland to the same extent if you aren't straight?
No.
Why? Religion.

By the way, there's no reason to 'respect' beliefs that are ridiculous.

robindch

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

In doing the reading he didn't betray any belief, he simply accommodated for the beliefs of others out of respect for them.

Nobody would be happier if that were reciprocated. And this forum would be dead by midnight this evening. In practice, this is what can and does happen:



You might find Jesus Camp interesting too, though it's a long way from your peaceful vision of inoffensive little old ladies trotting around of a Sunday morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

Caoimhelicious

Okay.. well obviously those people running the jesus camp are absolutely mad
"if that happened in the old testament harry potter would have been put to death"
This isn't so much a religious belief though, more of a cult thing. A really scary cult thing... eeek

Zillah

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

This isn't so much a religious belief though, more of a cult thing. A really scary cult thing... eeek

Welcome to our slippery slope.

With the above in mind, I would like to draw your attention to the Catholic Church's hateful attitude towards gay people, the horrendously anti-women disposition of most religions, and the boiling hatred between most Israeli Jews and Muslims. This could be a very long list but those ones come immediately to mind.

Newaglish

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

This isn't so much a religious belief though, more of a cult thing. A really scary cult thing... eeek

The difference being...?

Zombrex

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

Respect everyone? How dare you! BURN HIM!

The Mad Hatter

Zombrex wrote: »

Respect everyone? How dare you! BURN HIM!

Um, her, I expect? Given the username?

robindch

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

This isn't so much a religious belief though, more of a cult thing.

That's just a matter of degree. In the USA, Jesus-Camp style views are distressingly common -- and that's quite apart from them being the logical end-point of fundamentalist christian belief anyway.

Without wishing to overuse cartoons, here's one which makes the point quite well:

Dades

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

Personal beliefs = awesome!

Our children being force fed someone else's religion in school, less so.

Caoimhelicious

I would be totally against anything which would be detrimental to any marginalised faction of society, be it government, religion or cult.

but I would ponder if it really was the actual religion itself that was the cause of gay bashers etc.. or if its just sometimes used as a medium through which certain people can try and justify their own prejudices, things which are blatantly wrong and immoral, such as oppression of gays women etc.

Hell Ive watched Zeitgeist 1 and that crushed the little belief I ever had to begin with, What I had been trying to stress is that its a personal thing and we shouldnt judge someone based on their religion or lack there of! (unless theyre a scientologist of course, in which case their obvo loopy :L ) :P

Zillah

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

but I would ponder if it really was the actual religion itself that was the cause of gay bashers etc.. or if its just sometimes used as a medium through which certain people can try and justify their own prejudices

Is there a difference? What counts as the actual religion? Sexist parts of the Bible are thousands of years old; are they part of the religion or just it being used as a medium for certain people justifying their prejudices?

The sad truth is, it's one and the same. A religion is defined by the people that practice it; otherwise you'll get stuck in endless no true Scotsman fallacies.

paul_mcshane

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

i agree with you , im athiest but i would have no problem saying a prayer at a funeral for someone , only the insufferabley self righteous and arrogant insist on soapboxing every time the issue of religon pops up

Waking-Dreams

paul_mcshane wrote: »

I would have no problem saying a prayer at a funeral for someone

If you mean a reading or bible verse kind of thing, I think you’ll find many atheists (no doubt many that post here) have done just that, myself included. That’s not the issue. Rather, it’s the consequences of irrational belief which have many people annoyed with religion.

If all believers ever did was have meetings and recited prayers, poetry or whatever you’d find little resistance. But that’s not what they do. Believers go much further than that. Instead, many of them would rather others conform to their views, and in many cases, seek to bring about this objective by employing means which range from social disapproval to legal control.

Dades

paul_mcshane wrote: »

i agree with you , im athiest but i would have no problem saying a prayer at a funeral for someone

I'd agree with you except where you knew the deceased was not religious.

At the same time I'd hardly call a polite and private suggestion that they ask someone else to read the prayer "soapboxing".

Kooli

Wow, can't believe a post advocating tolerance and respect got such an angry reaction!

I liked it, OP!

Kooli

Kooli wrote: »

Wow, can't believe a post advocating tolerance and respect got such an angry reaction!

I liked it, OP!

One notes that it's never the religious fora getting the "be respectful and leave everyone alone" flybys

ShooterSF

Kooli wrote: »

Wow, can't believe a post advocating tolerance and respect got such an angry reaction!

I liked it, OP!

And where is the OP's post in the Christianity forum? Where is his post demanding that parents show tolerance and respect for their children's beliefs when filling in the census (I can offer you many posts from users here who had to fight to be put down as no religion) or the tolerance from family when an Atheist chooses not to baptise their child (again many topics) or get married outside of a church (again repeated issue on this forum). Show me one time where the roles were reversed and Atheists demanded a Christian not follow their beliefs (outside of when those beliefs negatively affect others directly)

I tolerate anyone's belief as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on others. I respect their right to hold any belief with the above condition again. I may not respect the belief and don't dare say we should respect all beliefs because there are many nasty ones out there not deserving of it. I also believe in the pursuit of truth and trust that humanity as a whole share that desire and so am happy to offer my point of view on a subject even when it differs from other people's point of view. That's not disrespecting the person it's being honest.

nozzferrahhtoo

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

I think the issue is that you and your father of whom you speak are talking from a position of privilege and no small amount of naivety. It is easy for such people to sit back and just throw out "live and let live" happy slappy type phrases and act perturbed as to what the whole issue actually is anyway.

Further the fact is that most of us DO respect the religious people. We respect people, we just do not respect ideas. Ideas are fair game for disagreement, debunking, attack, correction and even mockery. It is perfectly possible to attack ideas while respecting the people holding them.

It is something of a theist ploy to try and amalgamate the two and if you attack an idea they wish to paint it like you are attacking a person or people instead.

We do care for our fellow (wo)man. That is why we want to have things like universal health care to keep them free of disease. Similarly it is respect and love for fellow man that can motivate us to also want to keep them free of false and dangerous ideas too. When I disagree with someone using open and honest discourse I do not do it out of disrespect, but rather respect for them as a person. It is just people who can not take being disagreed with that paint it as being disrespectful.

All that said however, as many have pointed out already in this thread there would be few of us here with any issue with personal faith if it were actually personal. It all too often is not however and when people bring unsubstantiated fantastical nonsense into our halls of power, education and science it is they, not us, that draw a line in the ground.

Rev Hellfire

So basically if it's not bothering me its fine and everyone should take a chill pill.

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

One notes that it's never the religious fora getting the "be respectful and leave everyone alone" flybys

This is because, somehow, bizarrely, religions manage to promote their own self-image as being philosophies of respect and tolerance. Yet, when you examine any of them with a fine tooth comb you usually find the scathingly opposite. The nicest people we know can be transformed to monsters (who, mind you, still have good intentions) via the simplest of adherence to fundamental doctrine and its terrifying but logical conclusions.

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

This is because, somehow, bizarrely, religions manage to promote their own self-image as being philosophies of respect and tolerance. Yet, when you examine any of them with a fine tooth comb you usually find the scathingly opposite. The nicest people we know can be transformed to monsters (who, mind you, still have good intentions) via the simplest of adherence to fundamental doctrine and its terrifying but logical conclusions.

a bloody great yard brush would do

DHennessy

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

I would be totally against anything which would be detrimental to any marginalised faction of society, be it government, religion or cult.

but I would ponder if it really was the actual religion itself that was the cause of gay bashers etc.. or if its just sometimes used as a medium through which certain people can try and justify their own prejudices, things which are blatantly wrong and immoral, such as oppression of gays women etc.

Hell Ive watched Zeitgeist 1 and that crushed the little belief I ever had to begin with, What I had been trying to stress is that its a personal thing and we shouldnt judge someone based on their religion or lack there of! (unless theyre a scientologist of course, in which case their obvo loopy :L ) :P

it most definitely was religion that caused hatred towards homosexuals. Its not that long since homosexuality was illegal in this country and why? because Ireland was so much under the control of the catholic church. Of course this didnt just happen in Ireland but in pretty much every country and for the same reason, because religions were against it.
As an atheist i would have no problem just letting people be happy to believe if they wanted as long as it didnt affect anyone else. but the bottom line is, religion is causing hatred towards certain people and even wars so why should atheists be the ones to sit back and let people be happy with their beliefs?
it has to work both ways

Galvasean

Caoimhelicious wrote: »

Just trying to say everyone should respect everyone, I thought people would have a positive reaction

It's a great idea. However, as others pointed out it doesn't work out so well in the real world.
I have no respect for the Catholics that actively try to deny my homosexual friends from having the same rights as everyone else.
I have no respect for the Muslims who actively try to bring wife beating into this country as a right.
I have no respect for the Jehovah's Witnesses who approach me in the street and knock on my door and harass me so that I will join their religion when I clearly do not want to.
etc. etc. etc.

Essentially, if the religious want us to treat them with a whole bunch of respect they need to leave us alone and stop infringing upon our rights.

Caoimhelicious

Kooli wrote: »

Wow, can't believe a post advocating tolerance and respect got such an angry reaction!

I liked it, OP!

Yeah I know right!? didn't see that one coming..
I don't know if they all think Im pro religion or what
HATERS BE HATIN ALL THE TIME WEEHHHHHHHHHHH

Turtwig

HATERS?

Did you even read one of the posts that politely articulated arguments which disputed your original post?

MagicMarker

It just doesn't matter....


... except it kinda does matter.

Jernal

Jernal wrote: »

HATERS?

Did you even read one of the posts that politely articulated arguments which disputed your original post?

god jernal stop being such a hater, you aggressive atheist you

LEAVE THAT LITTLE OLD LADY ALONE

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

god jernal stop being such a hater, you aggressive atheist you

LEAVE THAT LITTLE OLD LADY ALONE

Firstly blue, it's God.
Secondly blue, it's Jernal.
Thirdly blue, I agree. I was being a hater, for that, I most sincerely apologise. (But cannot stop, because you see it's my nature)

Jernal

Jernal wrote: »

Firstly blue, it's God.
Secondly blue, it's Jernal.
Thirdly blue, I agree. I was being a hater, for that, I most sincerely apologise. (But cannot stop, because you see it's my nature)

I used up all my caps in the second line

There's a recession on...

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

I used up all my caps in the second line

There's a recession on...

Cut down on the sig so.:pac: