New to computer industry in ireland, please help

redbaggage

Hi,

After a poor leaving certificate and an average arts degree I did a masters/hdip software design course thinking it might shelter me a little bit from the economic depression. I thought I might like it because I liked maths in school and was frustrated by the marks I was getting in essay based courses where I could never figure out why I was doing so poorly. I found computer programming incredibly hard to learn and unbearably frustrating and stressful.

I learned c, c++, vb, html and xhtml and got no more than a c grade in any of them and to be perfectly honest can only now remember c to any degree, maybe I could brush up on c++. My overall grade was a 2.2 which is about what I deserved if not less. I cant say I have ever enjoyed it or been any good at it. I never gained any enthusiasm for the discipline but because of poor previous academic performance I am far too scared to go into something else and fail yet again and waste the money of some very good parents.

For the past year I have been procrastinating to avoid the inevitable pain of getting a job I dont want for any reasons other than to get away from a depressing minimum wage job and seem like a normal adult. I learned java from fas with much difficulty and will be doing the scjp exam in 2 weeks time and think its likely Ill pass it. I intend to send out my cv as soon as I finish that exam regardless of the outcome.

My questions are
-do I stand any chance of getting a job?
-if I was lucky enough to get a job would it be likely that I would get fired for my lack of ability?
-will interviewers easily spot my incompetence and lack of enthusiasm?
-will I ever catch up and get reasonably good at it?
-what is starting salary and salary as you go on like?
-will i ever learn to like it?
-is it as dreary and depressing and stressful as it seems?(like in office space)
-was anyone else ever in a similar position and how did it turn out for them?
-is there anything else I should be aware of?

I realize this must all sound pathetic but please be gentle with me if youre kind enough to reply.
Thank you

cambridge

Alright pal.

I am going to be blunt and to the point with you.

You are not cut out for software development / programming jobs / software engineering.

For someone with such a modest education background in the area, for you to get a job in it you would need to have a great attitude, a great interview and either a lot of experience or a decent portfolio.

I think it is more realistic for you to get a job it testing. You do not require the skill or the knowledge a dev does to be a competent tester. however, I am not certain you have that skill, or that knowledge, nor the attitude to learn it on the job.

What that leaves you with is technical support. Which is, in a lot of people's opinion, the bottom of the IT job barrel.

Starting perhaps with call centre support, try and upskill a bit in the area and try to get into some other tech support roles.

That's just my opinion and my advice, feel free to ignore it. I left the IT industry myself.

Tom Dunne

I have to agree with cambridge here.

Why do something that you don't enjoy and have difficulty with?

Aside from that, programming isn't the only career choice out there, there are many options including databases, system admin, networking and many more. Have you considered any of those? More importantly, do you feel you have an aptitude for any type of computer/IT related career?

Mr. Loverman

I don't think you are cut out for either programming or testing. I worked part-time in tech support through college and it is actually grand.

What do you want to do with your life? Forget the economic woes, what job would you like to do?

Eoin

-do I stand any chance of getting a job?
-if I was lucky enough to get a job would it be likely that I would get fired for my lack of ability?
-will interviewers easily spot my incompetence and lack of enthusiasm?

I'd be surprised if any half decent interviewer didn't pick up on this. If they didn't, then the odds are that you won't survive long into probation.

-will I ever catch up and get reasonably good at it?
-what is starting salary and salary as you go on like?
-will i ever learn to like it?
-is it as dreary and depressing and stressful as it seems?(like in office space)
-is there anything else I should be aware of?

Any job you don't enjoy is going to seem dreary. It can be stressful, but so can any job.

A lot of people fell into IT because of the .com boom just over a decade ago, but if you don't have any real interest and it's a complete chore to learn, it's not going to be a fun existence.

was anyone else ever in a similar position and how did it turn out for them?

I've known people who have struggled with programming, but then something eventually "clicked", and they got it. But they wanted to learn it and were enthusiastic about it.

If you've no interest, then do not go into programming.

JoePie

While, I 'got' programming, I was never that strong a developer, so I went into test. You can do 2/3 courses in Dublin City and get a cert, just to get you up to speed on testing practises and methodologies, etc, etc.

It's dull, but you'll get to look at systems from the customer point of view, as well as the business and technical sides, without ever having to get too technical.

redbaggage

Thanks for the replys guys. Sorry if Im being stupid.

The question that comes to mind now is if I go into testing or customer support (which sounds particularly unappealing to me because I have done a little bit of this before and am shy) which pay badly anyway am I not as well off just sticking to my minimum wage job and getting enough money to atleast try to get into something else? in your opinions. To be honest it sounds stupid to me to work in an area of something I dont like that isnt even rewarding.

Welease

I think you need to step back and try to work out what it is you do like to do, and what jobs encompass those interests..

It sounds like you would dislike pretty much every aspect of IT work, so why bother? Its easier and more productive to switch to something else now than spend the next 45 years working in a job you hate, probably won't succeed at.. but can't afford to move to something else because you now have mortgage, kids, bills etc.

Best of luck.

oB1

redbaggage wrote: »

Thanks for the replys guys. Sorry if Im being stupid.

The question that comes to mind now is if I go into testing or customer support (which sounds particularly unappealing to me because I have done a little bit of this before and am shy) which pay badly anyway am I not as well off just sticking to my minimum wage job and getting enough money to atleast try to get into something else? in your opinions. To be honest it sounds stupid to me to work in an area of something I dont like that isnt even rewarding.

Hi Redbaggage,

Fair play for stepping up, and explaining/admitting your situation it does open you up to being slatted for whatever reason here, but i do sympathize with you, however, i must say i tottaly agree with every other posts here.

What i would do in your situation is, look at all my options, and what i suggest is looking into the possibility of returning to college, and getting a Degree in IT from the ground up? - like a Computing degree, 4 years, and starting from scratch... that way, you can get yourself through college again, learning from day 1, and getting a good grasp on things like Programming and everything else - do also note that, there is a whole world of options and paths you can take with IT, NOT just Programming,testing etc... - like , sys admin, it admin, networking admin, it manager, and specialists along the way... there are internships you can do with Microsoft, and the "Big Boys" of the IT sector.

Failing that, wipe the slate, and re-evaluate your life in terms of your "future" - ask yourself, "where do i see myself in 10 years".. and plan from there, like if you see yourself married with kids, and well on the way to a good career, then make the appropriate choices for that now rather than later.

basically, IT is only for those you are into everything IT, usually Thats abit more than just programming, so, maybe it just isn't for you - there is no point staying in something your not into.

hope it helps.

Rob

LowOdour

Ive been a programmer for 5 years...not particulartly good at it and definately do not like it, but it pays a good wage which is needed as I have the family, mortgage, bills etc that Welease mentioned in his post above. And it can drain the confidence out of a person.

You sound like you are trying to push yourself into an IT career instead of wanting it. Dont do this...you will regret it.

-do I stand any chance of getting a job?
There is always a chance, but an internship or the like is what you need, to get a feel for it. Might mean no pay, but you would need to be enthuastic about doing it regardless.

-if I was lucky enough to get a job would it be likely that I would get fired for my lack of ability?
Most companies understand that you need to learn, and are taking you on with that in mind. Its up to you to prove to them you can learn

-will interviewers easily spot my incompetence and lack of enthusiasm?
Yes
-will I ever catch up and get reasonably good at it?
It is possible, if you can apply yourself to it and enjoy it. You dont sound like that you want it, so it could be tough going.
-what is starting salary and salary as you go on like?
Expect it to be low, but if you are interested in getting your foot in the door, be realistic with yourself about it
-will i ever learn to like it?
You may not know until you try
-is it as dreary and depressing and stressful as it seems?(like in office space)
Think this question sums up your attitude towards it all. Yes, it can be or it may not.

-was anyone else ever in a similar position and how did it turn out for them?
I wasnt as bad off as you, but I got in the door at a good company with little or no experince and have got promotion/raises over the years. I had a good attitude going in, that helped me progress over the years.

Think you need to take a step back, and look at all options open to you.

Mr. Loverman

Testing is not easy nor is it dull, but it is very easy to be a bad tester and just float along. Testing tends to be quite political and thankless with a lot of stress so I would avoid it if you want an easy life, although as stated it is the kind of job you can be crap at and just float along. I doubt that's what you want though.

Honestly it sounds like you don't actually want to work in IT. Please don't become another of those people in the IT industry who hate their job but feel trapped. Try to find out what you want to do with your life and aim for that. With JobBridge now it is possible to get that all important experience in your area of interest.

Mrs OBumble

OP, I wouldn't recommend yet another course: you've done plenty of those already!

What is your minimum wage job? Is it an industry where you could make a career? (Yes, you can make a career out of retail or fast food management ... )

If there's some other area that you like the idea of, then try and get a low-skill job in the field, or do some volunteer work, first before doing any more training.

redbaggage

Thanks again for the replies, its making me feel better to hear from you.

There is another problem for me. As youre all saying I have no interest in IT but when I think of other jobs especially ones open to people like me with poor academic histories I find Im even more uninterested in them.

Im disgusted with myself for thinking like this but I honestly dont see any appeal in any job outside of what you get payed. I know this is supposed to be lack of maturity but Im nearly 25 and if anything this feeling is getting stronger in me. IT is as good as pay gets for someone who has my academic history(and what it shows about my ability) and I have no attraction to helping people or creativity or the outdoors or low working hours or feelings of accomplishment or even status or whatever it is that draws people into jobs. I genuinely dont think this is going to change. Under those circumstances am I doomed to suffer this?

by the way IT shouldnt be open to people like me, thats why it seems the best option

oB1

redbaggage wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies, its making me feel better to hear from you.

There is another problem for me. As youre all saying I have no interest in IT but when I think of other jobs especially ones open to people like me with poor academic histories I find Im even more uninterested in them.

Im disgusted with myself for thinking like this but I honestly dont see any appeal in any job outside of what you get payed. I know this is supposed to be lack of maturity but Im nearly 25 and if anything this feeling is getting stronger in me. IT is as good as pay gets for someone who has my academic history(and what it shows about my ability) and I have no attraction to helping people or creativity or the outdoors or low working hours or feelings of accomplishment or even status or whatever it is that draws people into jobs. I genuinely dont think this is going to change. Under those circumstances am I doomed to suffer this?

No, No you are not doomed, at all... i am going to be blunt ( and i am generally nice and whitty-friendy ) but this calls for some "though Love"

STOP feeling sorry for yourself, and STOP slating yourself down, im sure you have great & unique skills to offer to an employer, especially if it is something you WANT to do.

but, in order for you to get there, you need, as i said before, to re-evaluate your life, im sure, like most normal human beings, you want what we all want for our future, adoring wife, kids, career that you LOVE getting up on a Monday to go to, flashy house, car and whatever else...

its as simple as this, don't just accept the whole idea of being in IT for the rest of your life, i personally LOVE IT, but its not for everyone, go out there, and find your passion... don't every settle for second best - if it is IT that you choose, you will NEED to up-skill, and as i mentioned before, college might be the best route to take, do it when your still young i suggest.

Hope it helps.

Rob

Tom Dunne

redbaggage wrote: »

Sorry if Im being stupid

You are not. You are being honest. Nothing wrong with that.

redbaggage wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies, its making me feel better to hear from you.

Good!

redbaggage wrote: »

to people like me with poor academic histories

Don't get too hung up on this, for goodness sake!

redbaggage wrote: »

Im disgusted with myself for thinking like this but I honestly dont see any appeal in any job outside of what you get payed.

Ok, forget about jobs for the moment - what do you like? Food? Books? Exercise? Sport? Travelling? What? There must be something you like.

Now, take whatever you like and enjoy and see if you can make a career out of that.

redbaggage

Tom Dunne wrote: »

You are not. You are being honest. Nothing wrong with that.



Good!



Don't get too hung up on this, for goodness sake!



Ok, forget about jobs for the moment - what do you like? Food? Books? Exercise? Sport? Travelling? What? There must be something you like.

Now, take whatever you like and enjoy and see if you can make a career out of that.

This is the kind of thing where I get very frustrated with myself. I appreciate your suggestion Tom and its what I would say to someone else but its where I think the problem lies for me.

Lets take something I like for an example. I like book and films a lot but the only realistic job that has anything to do with that is an english teacher which would depress me for reasons completely different to IT like hating public speaking, kids, previous exam trauma, the opinion I had of my teachers in the past etc and most importantly to me (irritatingly) money.

Id hate it and probably end up hating things I used to enjoy because of it and the same goes for all my other interests because Im only interested in non lucrative things maybe thats part of the reason I like them.

Welease

redbaggage wrote: »

Lets take something I like for an example. I like book and films a lot but the only realistic job that has anything to do with that is an english teacher which would depress me for reasons completely different to IT like hating public speaking, kids, previous exam trauma, the opinion I had of my teachers in the past etc and most importantly to me (irritatingly) money.

Related to books/films off the top of my head (in 10 seconds )..

Journalism, Reviewers, Proof Readers, Marketing, Web Site hosting, Librarian, Historian, Agent, Film Making, On Location specialist, Movie/Book distribution, Movie/Book sales, Project Management etc etc etc.
There are 1000's of roles related to books and movies..

If your motivation is money (and there is nothing wrong with that), then you need to find a job that you are good at.. and that becomes easier if you like job.. You will not be paid good money (in general) for doing a poor job.

Don't get down about the process.. you are actually approaching this in a mature manner. You understand the issue and are actively looking for solutions. Many folks don't, and end up spending the bulk of their lives in jobs they hate. Have you spoken to a decent career guidance specialist.. maybe they can help pinpoint areas of interest and related jobs for you.

If it helps.. my brother hated school and after several school moves he ended up leaving before his leaving cert. He bummed around Europe for several years doing nothing useful, with no qualifications and no real direction. He arrived back in Ireland at the age of 21 and my Dad found him
a summer job doing landscaping for a friends company. He fell in love with it.. got the focus he needed. Was able to join college as a mature student (had to go to the UK), did a HND, then a Degree.. worked abroad for 10 years, did a Master degree.. continued to work abroad and received his Doctorate a couple of years ago while continuing to work with governments around the world.. The key for him (and it sounds like for you also) was to find out what you find interesting and persue that..

redbaggage

Welease wrote: »

Related to books/films off the top of my head (in 10 seconds )..

Journalism, Reviewers, Proof Readers, Marketing, Web Site hosting, Librarian, Historian, Agent, Film Making, On Location specialist, Movie/Book distribution, Movie/Book sales, Project Management etc etc etc.
There are 1000's of roles related to books and movies..

I am sorry for being so contrary like this but Im aware of those jobs and they either possess the same or similar problems as the english teacher scenario or are extremely difficult to get into and require enormous emounts of talent and luck.

I think I would be deluding myself and setting up the ultimate disappointment if I invested precious time and money to be a film maker or a reviewer or a journalist for example. I have 2 friends who went into journalism and theyre struggling at part time local papers covering stories they have no interest in and questioning me about IT now. You have to be sensible about this and the more achievable jobs on that list such as librarian or project manager or web hosting fall back into the situation where youre only tangential to the interests that brought you there in the first place and youve fallen into another bad job with its own set of problems but with it likely draining your appreciation of your original love.

If I was you guys reading this Id tell myself to stop being a bitch because life is unfair and you are someone who has to suffer because of the way you are. Still doesnt stop me from whinning about it.

Welease

redbaggage wrote: »

I am sorry for being so contrary like this but Im aware of those jobs and they either possess the same or similar problems as the english teacher scenario or are extremely difficult to get into and require enormous emounts of talent and luck.

They require dedication and application, like most well paid jobs. You are not going to get a high paid job (if thats your goal) doing a basic job that you don't need to work hard at. If you could walk into any high paid job without talent, effort and some luck (possibly) then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Dismissing each and every idea as being difficult won't get you anywhere, you will need to decide what you want to do then work out how to get there.

redbaggage wrote: »

I think I would be deluding myself and setting up the ultimate disappointment if I invested precious time and money to be a film maker or a reviewer or a journalist for example. I have 2 friends who went into journalism and theyre struggling at part time local papers covering stories they have no interest in and questioning me about IT now. You have to be sensible about this and the more achievable jobs on that list such as librarian or project manager or web hosting fall back into the situation where youre only tangential to the interests that brought you there in the first place and youve fallen into another bad job with its own set of problems but with it likely draining your appreciation of your original love.

But you already went down the high paid IT route.. and that hasn't worked out so well.. It probably won't be much different with the next route unless it's something you enjoy. I imagine your friends will have pretty much the same experience as you unless they enjoy IT. I have been in the industry since the 80's.. and have sent so many people jump in for the "high pay" and leave later when they a) hated the job and more importantly b) were on relative low pay because they simply were not good enough at the job. Companies don't pay a lot of money to people who can't perform to the upper level of their peers.

redbaggage wrote: »

If I was you guys reading this Id tell myself to stop being a bitch because life is unfair and you are someone who has to suffer because of the way you are. Still doesnt stop me from whinning about it.

I don't think people would be that rude... but I will confirm that if you continue to believe that you can't do a job and are not willing to try.. then yes, you probably won't be able to do that job.. and 12 months from now you will be in exactly the same position.. It's a cycle, and you will be the only one capable of breaking it.

Mr. Loverman

Also try not to put too much pressure on yourself, most people don't exactly love their job and most people aren't doing anything close to their dream job.

You are young so you have time to experiment with different careers.

redbaggage

Welease wrote: »

They require dedication and application, like most well paid jobs. You are not going to get a high paid job (if thats your goal) doing a basic job that you don't need to work hard at. If you could walk into any high paid job without talent, effort and some luck (possibly) then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Im not trying to turn this into a back and forth so I wouldnt blame you for getting fed up with this and ignoring it.

The problem isnt really fear of difficulty or hard work its that the good jobs within my interests are near impossible to get and the bad jobs are in many ways worse than those in IT or any other area I dont have interest in.

The problem is that Im fixated on earning well while simultaneously not being interested or having the talent for anything that you can realistically make good money from.

If in some hypthetical world you had to take a job that was in an area you were interested in Id be very annoyed because I would very likely earn poorly for it and end up in a job Id hate just as much as one that was in an area I wasnt interested in.

Ive reread that and it seems very obnoxious, sorry. It just seems like an impossible situation to me.

Welease

redbaggage wrote: »

The problem isnt really fear of difficulty or hard work its that the good jobs within my interests are near impossible to get and the bad jobs are in many ways worse than those in IT or any other area I dont have interest in.

So what are the good jobs? What are the steps needed to get there? Which steps have you taken?

Without sounding like I am dismissing your issue, the problem is many cases is really that simple.. Bar winning the Lotto there is no zero effort method of getting to high pay.. irrespective of which direction you choose to persue you will need to have a plan to achieve all the elements that high paying employers require.. and if you are starting from scratch you may as well do it for an area thats more interesting to work in.

Stheno

Welease wrote: »

So what are the good jobs? What are the steps needed to get there? Which steps have you taken?

Without sounding like I am dismissing your issue, the problem is many cases is really that simple.. Bar winning the Lotto there is no zero effort method of getting to high pay.. irrespective of which direction you choose to persue you will need to have a plan to achieve all the elements that high paying employers require.. and if you are starting from scratch you may as well do it for an area thats more interesting to work in.

I agree with this and tbh OP I'm going to be very blunt here.

No one ever starts out being well paid. It takes years of dedication, and in the field of IT, years of continual upskilling and gaining experience to differenciate yourself from countless others.

It is worth it, when you get there, but it's a long hard slog, and I suspect it's the same in most other industries.

Find an area you have a true interest in, and you'll be happy to spend time in work and outside it getting to be good at it, you'll cope with crap pay, and over time will progress.