The "Irish" Field Marshall Montgomery

Snickers Man

I am normally fairly skeptical about the claims to "Irishness" of many British Army generals. Especially when those claims come from Irish people who seem to want to make the point that the British would probably be speaking German nowadays if it weren't for our contribution to all ranks of their military.

My point being that most of those supposedly "Irish" generals were born outside Ireland, raised outside Ireland and regarded themselves exclusively as British. And indeed, if you go back to those times, they would often have used "England" as a synonym for Britain.

A classic example, I always thought, was Field Marshall Montgomery, born in London, childhood spent largely in Australia and schooled in England. There seemed to be very little evidence that he thought of himself as Irish in any way. After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

But on listening to his appearance on the legendary Desert Island Discs program, recorded in 1969 and made available now on the BBC Website, I may have to reconsider my rash judgement.

Have a listen here and if you want to fast forward to the relevant bit it's at 23 min 25 secs.

Enjoy!

Judgement Day

Certainly there have been a large number of senior British Army/Royal Navy figures with Irish connections but most would have regarded themselves as British first and Irish second. Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. I doubt many of them would have heard of "Molly Malone" though.

Sir Dermot Boyle, Marshal of the Royal Air Force (from Abbeyleix)
Lord Gort Commander of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940
Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck (Scots/Ulster roots)
Field Marshal Earl Roberts of Kandahar (family from Waterford)
Earl Kitchener of Khartoum (Listowel)
Sir Henry Wilson,Chief of the Imperial General Staff (Longford)
Admiral Earl Beatty of the Battle of Jutland fame (County Wexford)
Duke of Wellington (Trim)

Manach

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

Fratton Fred

Admiral Andrew Browne Cunningham, was born in Rathmines.

ABC commanded the British fleet in the Med and was in command for Mars El Kabir and Taranto. He went on to become 1st sea lord.

dubhthach

Manach wrote: »

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

I believe (though I could be wrong) that it was O'Connell who actually was the origin of that statement about Wellington.

Snickers Man

dubhthach wrote: »

I believe (though I could be wrong) that it was O'Connell who actually was the origin of that statement about Wellington.

Put to bed for avid Boards readers a long time ago.

donaghs

Monty doesn't come across as badly as I was expecting. I was expecting an arrogant unbearable to listen to person. Its a great find.

Manach

Montgomery seems to be the marmite of WWII generals. Some commentators have praised him for his logistical acumen, whilst others (Ian Kershaw "The End") called him arrogant and a factor in prolonging the war - due to Arnhem.

Snickers Man

His reputation has waxed and waned since the war. There is no doubt that he was an utter professional, meticulous in preparation, an avid and perpetual student of his profession and with the force of character to organise the vast array of subordinates that is required for an organisation as large as he commanded.

His complete self confidence was an inspiration to many, but naturally his conceit grated on others who fell by the wayside. At least one former colleague (the genuinely Irish born Dorman-Smith) sued him for defamation on publication of his memoirs, feeling that his own contribution had been misrepresented and downgraded.

He was a skilled political manipulator, able to convince Churchill to postpone his major offensive at El Alamein until the opportune time. The same timetable had his predecessor Auchinlek dismissed for not being sufficiently aggressive.

In manner Montgomery could be conceited and overbearing, as one author put it he was "antisocial almost to the point of being autistic". But his self promotion, such as his distinctive two-badged beret, and his determination to be visible to the troops won their affection. In the interview linked to he described the beret as "being worth two divisions"

The American generals hated him, and it seemed to have been heartily returned. He was very British with the innate condescension towards the "colonies" that so aggravates the Yanks. There is film of him telling an American interviewer during the Cold War that "In matters of international diplomacy Britain has the experience of centuries, America only the experience of decades" The implication being that America should follow Britain's lead in managing the post war world, not the other way round.

A psychologist could doubtless make much of experiences in his personal life. He hated his mother, who was a strict disciplinarian in contrast to his kindly clergyman father. He refused to go to his mother's funeral and forbade his son from doing so. He was happily married, at about age 40, but his wife died suddenly and tragically after ten years together.

I think he comes across quite well in that interview too, and his choices of music, Molly Malone excepted , are surprisingly sentimental and tasteful. Interesting that he should describe what "makes him tick" as a refusal to give in to unnecessary or superfluous authority.

Feck it, he WAS Irish after all!

Kilkenny14

Montgomery was a difficult subordinate but he was massively popular with the British public and soldiers - he clearly got some Irish charm from somewhere!

Boulevardier

A late relative of mine, who became senior in the Free State Army, was sent to Alddershot for some sort of training in the 1930's as were other Free state officers.

I am told that Montgomery snubbed him in no uncertain terms, because he did not carry the King's commission.

I am guessing that Monty was a closet admirer of the Curragh mutineers and that he had a chip on his shoulder towards the free Irish.

Fuinseog

Manach wrote: »

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

which is why Dubliners did not wish to contribute to his monument in the park. it took forty years to complete.

Manic Moran

After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while.

Bottom line is that for his good or his ills, he was the most important field general in the Western Allies. From North Africa through the fall of Germany, he was the #1 priority for the German command in the West. Of course, the #1 priority for OKW in general was Zhukov.

Snickers Man

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while.

Bottom line is that for his good or his ills, he was the most important field general in the Western Allies. From North Africa through the fall of Germany, he was the #1 priority for the German command in the West.

Is that a popular opinion among American officers?

Just about every American movie I've seen in which Monty is mentioned holds him up to some sort of ridicule. I realise that Hollywood does not make history but it can reflect prevailing attitudes and in films such as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and A Bridge too Far, he is derided at some point (or points) in each. He gets a bit of a pasting in the TV mini series biopic of Eisenhower, starring Robert Duvall, too.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of course, the #1 priority for OKW in general was Zhukov.

Don't think there can be any argument about that.

Cardinal Richelieu

Judgement Day wrote: »

Certainly there have been a large number of senior British Army/Royal Navy figures with Irish connections but most would have regarded themselves as British first and Irish second. Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. I doubt many of them would have heard of "Molly Malone" though.

Sir Dermot Boyle, Marshal of the Royal Air Force (from Abbeyleix)
Lord Gort Commander of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940
Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck (Scots/Ulster roots)
Field Marshal Earl Roberts of Kandahar (family from Waterford)
Earl Kitchener of Khartoum (Listowel)
Sir Henry Wilson,Chief of the Imperial General Staff (Longford)
Admiral Earl Beatty of the Battle of Jutland fame (County Wexford)
Duke of Wellington (Trim)

Dan Snow WW2 Show mentioned that Major General Percy Hobart of "Hobart's Funnies" fame, father came from Dublin and his mother from Tyrone.

Manic Moran

Snickers Man wrote: »

Is that a popular opinion among American officers?

Just about every American movie I've seen in which Monty is mentioned holds him up to some sort of ridicule. I realise that Hollywood does not make history but it can reflect prevailing attitudes and in films such as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and A Bridge too Far, he is derided at some point (or points) in each. He gets a bit of a pasting in the TV mini series biopic of Eisenhower, starring Robert Duvall, too.

I don't learn my history from American movies.

An analysis of the German records from WWII indicates that the piority was always stopping Montgomery's force when the Western Allies were in a campaign. Now, it is important to distinguish between focusing on Montgomery's force because Monty was in charge, and focusing on Montgomery's force because it was the strongest or the most dangerously located. For example, when Patton and Monty were fighting each other (and the Germans/Italians as well, I guess) in Sicily, the Germans didn't give an arse about Patton, because he was on the wrong side of the island. The escape route to Italy was to the East, which meant that the Eastern allied force had to be given preferential treatment. That Eastern force happened to be commanded by Montgomery, so the Axis priority in Sicily was slowing Montgomery. And, ultimately, they achieved it.

One can also make the argument then that Monty was the better choice for the East side of the island, because the much stiffer defence provided far less opportunity for Patton's favoured "broken field running" and was far more positional/tougher, which Monty seemed to be better at.

NTM

slowburner

I had an original picture of a formal 'do' in London in the early '50s where Monty was guest of honour.
A relly has the picture now; if I can get it, I'll post it up.
Everyone is sitting bolt upright, except Monty, who leaned forward to be certain that he wasn't obscured by any lesser diner.
According to the man who was present at the do (not far from the man himself), Monty was notoriously vain, and a busy self publicist.

pedroeibar1

slowburner wrote: »

.
According to the man who was present at the do (not far from the man himself), Monty was notoriously vain, and a busy self publicist.

That seems to be a generally accepted view from what I've read and heard.
I had a friend who served under Monty in North Africa and in Italy; he was a transport officer and had to master the art of managing mules, as their motorized transport was useless in Sicilian and Apennine terrain. He had no time for Monty, but never said why as he very rarely discussed the War. Coincidentally both came from the same background (clergyman fathers).
For me, Eisenhower was a soldier/diplomat, Patton and Montgomery were egomaniacs and knew the importance of the Press and how to manage the media. That is one reason there was so much strife.

Lector

Just because you're a self-publicising egomaniac, it doesn't mean you're not a good general. Julius Caesar was both, as was Napoleon, and others.

This isn't a defence of Monty - I feel he owes a lot of his positive reputation to Churchill's patronage and the fact that other (possibly/probably better) British generals didn't enjoy the PM's favour. As a result, he was given the opportunities to shine (and then ensure the world knew all about it). Generals such as Slim, Alexander, etc. would probably have done as well, if not better. As a further result, Monty became the most prominent British general so gained a positive press from those who wished to show that it wasn't entirely an American (and Russian) victory.
Conversely, many who take a strongly pro-US stance belittle the man.

There, that's the fence neatly straddled

purplepanda

Here's a Wexford Echo profile of Earl Beatty

http://www.wexfordecho.ie/news/mhsnmhausn/

Commodore John Barry has a memorial so why not Earl Beatty, we've already got a Wellington Bridge & that's despite him being a Dub. :rolleyes:

Earl Beatty's family are from the county & many Wexford men joined the Royal Navy during the wars. A joint memorial would be a fitting tribute to them.

"10 March 2011

A powerful naval figure

BORODALE IS unquestionably one of the most beautiful vales in Co. Wexford; mostly natural, but partly man-made, the tree lined gorge dipping steeply to the rushing river Boro, once a haven for leisure pursuits such as a stroll or a picnic and seasonally brisk trout angling, but quieter in modern times.

The single span Victoria Bridge, named after a legendary queen who reigned longer than any other, and constructed by an anonymous builder, whose name is inscribed in stone on the parapet, M.P. Howlin, in 1840, directs the visitor to this beauty spot.

The mundane entrance of the Enniscorthy side of the bridge, now devoid of its ornamental railing of yesteryear, used to lead to Borodale House, ancestral home of the Beatty family for several generations.

It came to an ignominious end in the 1930’s; first in 1934 when the mansion and estate was sold for ‘ten shillings’ (50 cent in today’s currency), a legal case that drew public interest through the national media in this country and in Britain, and eventually, the demolition of the house and the distribution of the land.

For four or five years, the wrangle of Borodale estate was in the courts and the public curiosity had the Beatty name and Borodale on everybody’s lips, kept informed by the British newspapers in particular with reports copied by the local press, including THE ECHO.

During this time, Admiral David Beatty, died in London on March 11th 1936 – 75 years ago next week – while his only son and heir, also named David, was the owner of the 1938 English Derby winner, Bois Roussel.

In the twilight years of his life, the Admiral would have been saddened by what was happening to his Irish home, a place that carried for him great childhood memories.

David Beatty was born on January 17th 1871 – 140 years ago – son of David Longfield Beatty, (18411904), and Katherine Edith Sadlier, of Dunboyne Castle, Co. Meath, and Nelson’s Place, Co. Tipperary.

He joined the Navy in 1884 at the age of 13 and enjoyed spectacular elevation through the ranks and in 1916, as Vice-Admiral of the British fleet flagship battle cruiser, ‘Lion’, and fought the war with distinction at the fierce battles at Jutland in the North Sea and at Scapa Flow, off the Scottish coast.

In 1919, when he became Admiral of the Fleet, he was the youngest admiral since the famous Horatio Nelson.

His promotion was a reward for his contribution to the war effort and in tandem with a generous cash reward; he was conferred with titles such as Baron Beatty of the North Sea and Brooksby in the County of Leicester, Viscount Borodale of Wexford, and Earl Beatty.



While many members of the Beatty family lie at rest in Clonmore Graveyard, near Bree, Admiral Beatty rests in St. Paul’s Cathedral in London, given a State funeral, and the last person to be buried in the crypt underneath the cathedral floor, beside Admiral Nelson.

mathepac

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while....

The units responsible for looting pillaging and burning in Cork were under his direct command.

Judgement Day

More about Admiral Beatty in a previous thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66744304&postcount=42 . My grandfather's favourite Aunt - Anita "ICA" Lett - was the Admiral's stepmother and 'looked after' the Borodale Estate.

Delancey

Monty certainly sounds like an insufferable self-publicist . Field Marshal Von Runstedt described him as '' cautious , habit-ridden and predicatable '' - the great British gift of '' glorious failure '' allowed him to preserve his reputation even after the Arnhem fiasco.
A controversial biography some years ago claimed he had paedophile tendencies and an unhealthy interest in young boys.

slowburner

I'm sure it was controversial.
What was the basis of the author's allegation?

Delancey

slowburner wrote: »

I'm sure it was controversial.
What was the basis of the author's allegation?

Interviews with the young boys decades later - the allegations related to Monty post-retirement and its only fair to note the bio was published after the subjects death.
Alas I have no link but remember a lot of outraged letters to the Daily Telegraph and the like.

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

More about Admiral Beatty in a previous thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66744304&postcount=42 . My grandfather's favourite Aunt - Anita "ICA" Lett - was the Admiral's stepmother and 'looked after' the Borodale Estate.

Are you related to the Letts brewery people JD?

Judgement Day

purplepanda wrote: »

Are you related to the Letts brewery people JD?

Distant cousins. Three branches of the family - I belong to the poor one, wouldn't you know it.

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

Distant cousins. Three branches of the family - I belong to the poor one, wouldn't you know it.

Know the feeling, distant cousin of mine, Epsom Derby winning trainer a few years back, I'm the poor relation as they say :rolleyes:

jonniebgood1

Snickers Man wrote: »

..... Field Marshall Montgomery, born in London, childhood spent largely in Australia and schooled in England. There seemed to be very little evidence that he thought of himself as Irish in any way. After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

Montgomery's link with Ireland, of course also involved his station here in the War of Independence. He was in Cork and I think is referenced in Tom Barry's book. His post WofI view was quite ruthless on how the Irish civilians should be treated.

Personally, my whole attention was given to defeating the rebels but it never bothered me a bit how many houses were burnt. I think I regarded all civilians as 'Shinners' and I never had any dealings with any of them. My own view is that to win a war of this sort, you must be ruthless. Oliver Cromwell, or the Germans, would have settled it in a very short time. Nowadays public opinion precludes such methods, the nation would never allow it, and the politicians would lose their jobs if they sanctioned it. That being so, I consider that Lloyd George was right in what he did, if we had gone on we could probably have squashed the rebellion as a temporary measure, but it would have broken out again like an ulcer the moment we removed the troops. I think the rebels would probably refused battles, and hidden their arms etc. until we had gone. http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=68987

taken from Montgomery letter to Percival in 1923.

His analysis of Guerilla war was not far off the mark- he saw that they would not be able to ever have a full victory (i.e. "squashed the rebellion as a temporary measure").

Judgement Day

Monty belonged to the old school of how to deal with insurgency and the winning of hearts and minds of the population was not part of the thinking then. Another famous Anglo-Irish officer, Sir Henry Wilson, held much the same views on how to deal with the problem. Their viewpoint from a purely military point of view is hard to question but as a long term solution to a political problem....

jonniebgood1

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.