The "Irish" Field Marshall Montgomery

Snickers Man

I am normally fairly skeptical about the claims to "Irishness" of many British Army generals. Especially when those claims come from Irish people who seem to want to make the point that the British would probably be speaking German nowadays if it weren't for our contribution to all ranks of their military.

My point being that most of those supposedly "Irish" generals were born outside Ireland, raised outside Ireland and regarded themselves exclusively as British. And indeed, if you go back to those times, they would often have used "England" as a synonym for Britain.

A classic example, I always thought, was Field Marshall Montgomery, born in London, childhood spent largely in Australia and schooled in England. There seemed to be very little evidence that he thought of himself as Irish in any way. After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

But on listening to his appearance on the legendary Desert Island Discs program, recorded in 1969 and made available now on the BBC Website, I may have to reconsider my rash judgement.

Have a listen here and if you want to fast forward to the relevant bit it's at 23 min 25 secs.

Enjoy!

Judgement Day

Certainly there have been a large number of senior British Army/Royal Navy figures with Irish connections but most would have regarded themselves as British first and Irish second. Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. I doubt many of them would have heard of "Molly Malone" though.

Sir Dermot Boyle, Marshal of the Royal Air Force (from Abbeyleix)
Lord Gort Commander of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940
Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck (Scots/Ulster roots)
Field Marshal Earl Roberts of Kandahar (family from Waterford)
Earl Kitchener of Khartoum (Listowel)
Sir Henry Wilson,Chief of the Imperial General Staff (Longford)
Admiral Earl Beatty of the Battle of Jutland fame (County Wexford)
Duke of Wellington (Trim)

Manach

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

Fratton Fred

Admiral Andrew Browne Cunningham, was born in Rathmines.

ABC commanded the British fleet in the Med and was in command for Mars El Kabir and Taranto. He went on to become 1st sea lord.

dubhthach

Manach wrote: »

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

I believe (though I could be wrong) that it was O'Connell who actually was the origin of that statement about Wellington.

Snickers Man

dubhthach wrote: »

I believe (though I could be wrong) that it was O'Connell who actually was the origin of that statement about Wellington.

Put to bed for avid Boards readers a long time ago.

donaghs

Monty doesn't come across as badly as I was expecting. I was expecting an arrogant unbearable to listen to person. Its a great find.

Manach

Montgomery seems to be the marmite of WWII generals. Some commentators have praised him for his logistical acumen, whilst others (Ian Kershaw "The End") called him arrogant and a factor in prolonging the war - due to Arnhem.

Snickers Man

His reputation has waxed and waned since the war. There is no doubt that he was an utter professional, meticulous in preparation, an avid and perpetual student of his profession and with the force of character to organise the vast array of subordinates that is required for an organisation as large as he commanded.

His complete self confidence was an inspiration to many, but naturally his conceit grated on others who fell by the wayside. At least one former colleague (the genuinely Irish born Dorman-Smith) sued him for defamation on publication of his memoirs, feeling that his own contribution had been misrepresented and downgraded.

He was a skilled political manipulator, able to convince Churchill to postpone his major offensive at El Alamein until the opportune time. The same timetable had his predecessor Auchinlek dismissed for not being sufficiently aggressive.

In manner Montgomery could be conceited and overbearing, as one author put it he was "antisocial almost to the point of being autistic". But his self promotion, such as his distinctive two-badged beret, and his determination to be visible to the troops won their affection. In the interview linked to he described the beret as "being worth two divisions"

The American generals hated him, and it seemed to have been heartily returned. He was very British with the innate condescension towards the "colonies" that so aggravates the Yanks. There is film of him telling an American interviewer during the Cold War that "In matters of international diplomacy Britain has the experience of centuries, America only the experience of decades" The implication being that America should follow Britain's lead in managing the post war world, not the other way round.

A psychologist could doubtless make much of experiences in his personal life. He hated his mother, who was a strict disciplinarian in contrast to his kindly clergyman father. He refused to go to his mother's funeral and forbade his son from doing so. He was happily married, at about age 40, but his wife died suddenly and tragically after ten years together.

I think he comes across quite well in that interview too, and his choices of music, Molly Malone excepted , are surprisingly sentimental and tasteful. Interesting that he should describe what "makes him tick" as a refusal to give in to unnecessary or superfluous authority.

Feck it, he WAS Irish after all!

Kilkenny14

Montgomery was a difficult subordinate but he was massively popular with the British public and soldiers - he clearly got some Irish charm from somewhere!

Boulevardier

A late relative of mine, who became senior in the Free State Army, was sent to Alddershot for some sort of training in the 1930's as were other Free state officers.

I am told that Montgomery snubbed him in no uncertain terms, because he did not carry the King's commission.

I am guessing that Monty was a closet admirer of the Curragh mutineers and that he had a chip on his shoulder towards the free Irish.

Fuinseog

Manach wrote: »

There is also Arthur Welsley - The Duke of Wellington, who would have regarded himself as more Anglo that Irish. But the phrase, "If a gentleman happens to be born in a stable, it does not follow that he should be called a horse." was actually not his, at least according to two biographies I've read of him.

which is why Dubliners did not wish to contribute to his monument in the park. it took forty years to complete.

Manic Moran

After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while.

Bottom line is that for his good or his ills, he was the most important field general in the Western Allies. From North Africa through the fall of Germany, he was the #1 priority for the German command in the West. Of course, the #1 priority for OKW in general was Zhukov.

Snickers Man

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while.

Bottom line is that for his good or his ills, he was the most important field general in the Western Allies. From North Africa through the fall of Germany, he was the #1 priority for the German command in the West.

Is that a popular opinion among American officers?

Just about every American movie I've seen in which Monty is mentioned holds him up to some sort of ridicule. I realise that Hollywood does not make history but it can reflect prevailing attitudes and in films such as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and A Bridge too Far, he is derided at some point (or points) in each. He gets a bit of a pasting in the TV mini series biopic of Eisenhower, starring Robert Duvall, too.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of course, the #1 priority for OKW in general was Zhukov.

Don't think there can be any argument about that.

Cardinal Richelieu

Judgement Day wrote: »

Certainly there have been a large number of senior British Army/Royal Navy figures with Irish connections but most would have regarded themselves as British first and Irish second. Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. I doubt many of them would have heard of "Molly Malone" though.

Sir Dermot Boyle, Marshal of the Royal Air Force (from Abbeyleix)
Lord Gort Commander of the British Expeditionary Force in 1940
Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck (Scots/Ulster roots)
Field Marshal Earl Roberts of Kandahar (family from Waterford)
Earl Kitchener of Khartoum (Listowel)
Sir Henry Wilson,Chief of the Imperial General Staff (Longford)
Admiral Earl Beatty of the Battle of Jutland fame (County Wexford)
Duke of Wellington (Trim)

Dan Snow WW2 Show mentioned that Major General Percy Hobart of "Hobart's Funnies" fame, father came from Dublin and his mother from Tyrone.

Manic Moran

Snickers Man wrote: »

Is that a popular opinion among American officers?

Just about every American movie I've seen in which Monty is mentioned holds him up to some sort of ridicule. I realise that Hollywood does not make history but it can reflect prevailing attitudes and in films such as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and A Bridge too Far, he is derided at some point (or points) in each. He gets a bit of a pasting in the TV mini series biopic of Eisenhower, starring Robert Duvall, too.

I don't learn my history from American movies.

An analysis of the German records from WWII indicates that the piority was always stopping Montgomery's force when the Western Allies were in a campaign. Now, it is important to distinguish between focusing on Montgomery's force because Monty was in charge, and focusing on Montgomery's force because it was the strongest or the most dangerously located. For example, when Patton and Monty were fighting each other (and the Germans/Italians as well, I guess) in Sicily, the Germans didn't give an arse about Patton, because he was on the wrong side of the island. The escape route to Italy was to the East, which meant that the Eastern allied force had to be given preferential treatment. That Eastern force happened to be commanded by Montgomery, so the Axis priority in Sicily was slowing Montgomery. And, ultimately, they achieved it.

One can also make the argument then that Monty was the better choice for the East side of the island, because the much stiffer defence provided far less opportunity for Patton's favoured "broken field running" and was far more positional/tougher, which Monty seemed to be better at.

NTM

slowburner

I had an original picture of a formal 'do' in London in the early '50s where Monty was guest of honour.
A relly has the picture now; if I can get it, I'll post it up.
Everyone is sitting bolt upright, except Monty, who leaned forward to be certain that he wasn't obscured by any lesser diner.
According to the man who was present at the do (not far from the man himself), Monty was notoriously vain, and a busy self publicist.

pedroeibar1

slowburner wrote: »

.
According to the man who was present at the do (not far from the man himself), Monty was notoriously vain, and a busy self publicist.

That seems to be a generally accepted view from what I've read and heard.
I had a friend who served under Monty in North Africa and in Italy; he was a transport officer and had to master the art of managing mules, as their motorized transport was useless in Sicilian and Apennine terrain. He had no time for Monty, but never said why as he very rarely discussed the War. Coincidentally both came from the same background (clergyman fathers).
For me, Eisenhower was a soldier/diplomat, Patton and Montgomery were egomaniacs and knew the importance of the Press and how to manage the media. That is one reason there was so much strife.

Lector

Just because you're a self-publicising egomaniac, it doesn't mean you're not a good general. Julius Caesar was both, as was Napoleon, and others.

This isn't a defence of Monty - I feel he owes a lot of his positive reputation to Churchill's patronage and the fact that other (possibly/probably better) British generals didn't enjoy the PM's favour. As a result, he was given the opportunities to shine (and then ensure the world knew all about it). Generals such as Slim, Alexander, etc. would probably have done as well, if not better. As a further result, Monty became the most prominent British general so gained a positive press from those who wished to show that it wasn't entirely an American (and Russian) victory.
Conversely, many who take a strongly pro-US stance belittle the man.

There, that's the fence neatly straddled

purplepanda

Here's a Wexford Echo profile of Earl Beatty

http://www.wexfordecho.ie/news/mhsnmhausn/

Commodore John Barry has a memorial so why not Earl Beatty, we've already got a Wellington Bridge & that's despite him being a Dub. :rolleyes:

Earl Beatty's family are from the county & many Wexford men joined the Royal Navy during the wars. A joint memorial would be a fitting tribute to them.

"10 March 2011

A powerful naval figure

BORODALE IS unquestionably one of the most beautiful vales in Co. Wexford; mostly natural, but partly man-made, the tree lined gorge dipping steeply to the rushing river Boro, once a haven for leisure pursuits such as a stroll or a picnic and seasonally brisk trout angling, but quieter in modern times.

The single span Victoria Bridge, named after a legendary queen who reigned longer than any other, and constructed by an anonymous builder, whose name is inscribed in stone on the parapet, M.P. Howlin, in 1840, directs the visitor to this beauty spot.

The mundane entrance of the Enniscorthy side of the bridge, now devoid of its ornamental railing of yesteryear, used to lead to Borodale House, ancestral home of the Beatty family for several generations.

It came to an ignominious end in the 1930’s; first in 1934 when the mansion and estate was sold for ‘ten shillings’ (50 cent in today’s currency), a legal case that drew public interest through the national media in this country and in Britain, and eventually, the demolition of the house and the distribution of the land.

For four or five years, the wrangle of Borodale estate was in the courts and the public curiosity had the Beatty name and Borodale on everybody’s lips, kept informed by the British newspapers in particular with reports copied by the local press, including THE ECHO.

During this time, Admiral David Beatty, died in London on March 11th 1936 – 75 years ago next week – while his only son and heir, also named David, was the owner of the 1938 English Derby winner, Bois Roussel.

In the twilight years of his life, the Admiral would have been saddened by what was happening to his Irish home, a place that carried for him great childhood memories.

David Beatty was born on January 17th 1871 – 140 years ago – son of David Longfield Beatty, (18411904), and Katherine Edith Sadlier, of Dunboyne Castle, Co. Meath, and Nelson’s Place, Co. Tipperary.

He joined the Navy in 1884 at the age of 13 and enjoyed spectacular elevation through the ranks and in 1916, as Vice-Admiral of the British fleet flagship battle cruiser, ‘Lion’, and fought the war with distinction at the fierce battles at Jutland in the North Sea and at Scapa Flow, off the Scottish coast.

In 1919, when he became Admiral of the Fleet, he was the youngest admiral since the famous Horatio Nelson.

His promotion was a reward for his contribution to the war effort and in tandem with a generous cash reward; he was conferred with titles such as Baron Beatty of the North Sea and Brooksby in the County of Leicester, Viscount Borodale of Wexford, and Earl Beatty.



While many members of the Beatty family lie at rest in Clonmore Graveyard, near Bree, Admiral Beatty rests in St. Paul’s Cathedral in London, given a State funeral, and the last person to be buried in the crypt underneath the cathedral floor, beside Admiral Nelson.

mathepac

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, he was posted to Cork for a while....

The units responsible for looting pillaging and burning in Cork were under his direct command.

Judgement Day

More about Admiral Beatty in a previous thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66744304&postcount=42 . My grandfather's favourite Aunt - Anita "ICA" Lett - was the Admiral's stepmother and 'looked after' the Borodale Estate.

Delancey

Monty certainly sounds like an insufferable self-publicist . Field Marshal Von Runstedt described him as '' cautious , habit-ridden and predicatable '' - the great British gift of '' glorious failure '' allowed him to preserve his reputation even after the Arnhem fiasco.
A controversial biography some years ago claimed he had paedophile tendencies and an unhealthy interest in young boys.

slowburner

I'm sure it was controversial.
What was the basis of the author's allegation?

Delancey

slowburner wrote: »

I'm sure it was controversial.
What was the basis of the author's allegation?

Interviews with the young boys decades later - the allegations related to Monty post-retirement and its only fair to note the bio was published after the subjects death.
Alas I have no link but remember a lot of outraged letters to the Daily Telegraph and the like.

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

More about Admiral Beatty in a previous thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66744304&postcount=42 . My grandfather's favourite Aunt - Anita "ICA" Lett - was the Admiral's stepmother and 'looked after' the Borodale Estate.

Are you related to the Letts brewery people JD?

Judgement Day

purplepanda wrote: »

Are you related to the Letts brewery people JD?

Distant cousins. Three branches of the family - I belong to the poor one, wouldn't you know it.

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

Distant cousins. Three branches of the family - I belong to the poor one, wouldn't you know it.

Know the feeling, distant cousin of mine, Epsom Derby winning trainer a few years back, I'm the poor relation as they say :rolleyes:

jonniebgood1

Snickers Man wrote: »

..... Field Marshall Montgomery, born in London, childhood spent largely in Australia and schooled in England. There seemed to be very little evidence that he thought of himself as Irish in any way. After all, his only connection with the place seemed to have been the occasional summer holiday in the family's ancestral home in Moville, Donegal.

Montgomery's link with Ireland, of course also involved his station here in the War of Independence. He was in Cork and I think is referenced in Tom Barry's book. His post WofI view was quite ruthless on how the Irish civilians should be treated.

Personally, my whole attention was given to defeating the rebels but it never bothered me a bit how many houses were burnt. I think I regarded all civilians as 'Shinners' and I never had any dealings with any of them. My own view is that to win a war of this sort, you must be ruthless. Oliver Cromwell, or the Germans, would have settled it in a very short time. Nowadays public opinion precludes such methods, the nation would never allow it, and the politicians would lose their jobs if they sanctioned it. That being so, I consider that Lloyd George was right in what he did, if we had gone on we could probably have squashed the rebellion as a temporary measure, but it would have broken out again like an ulcer the moment we removed the troops. I think the rebels would probably refused battles, and hidden their arms etc. until we had gone. http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=68987

taken from Montgomery letter to Percival in 1923.

His analysis of Guerilla war was not far off the mark- he saw that they would not be able to ever have a full victory (i.e. "squashed the rebellion as a temporary measure").

Judgement Day

Monty belonged to the old school of how to deal with insurgency and the winning of hearts and minds of the population was not part of the thinking then. Another famous Anglo-Irish officer, Sir Henry Wilson, held much the same views on how to deal with the problem. Their viewpoint from a purely military point of view is hard to question but as a long term solution to a political problem....

jonniebgood1

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.

pedroeibar1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.

I don’t agree with the comment on Montgomery. He would be a disaster in a guerrilla war; he did not have the necessary mindset – he was predictable (as Delancey said above in #23 ) and too rigid, whereas to be successful in counter-insurgency a general has to be extremely fluid. Back in the ‘60’s Robert Tabor hit the nail in his ‘War of the Flea’ saying a fixed army is like a dog fighting fleas: it has too much to defend against a tiny, agile and motivated enemy. The British Army has fought in conflicts that were guerrilla wars for centuries and its Higher Command never seems to have got the message. The First Afghan War & massacre of Lord Elphinstone’s ‘exodus’ was won by the ‘Afghans’ through use of guerrilla tactics. The subsequent Punjab wars were similar. The Boers fought using guerrilla tactics, as did the Arabs in the WWI Middle East campaign, the Irish War of Indep, the Malays in ‘47, Aden, Cyprus, etc. And those are the ones that they fought in; add to that those they observed, such as Indochine, Mao, Algeria, various African countries, Guevara, etc. Control appears to be inculcated in ranks above colonel.

Those officers who did understand guerrilla tactics initially faced huge challenges in setting up guerrilla units – Lawrence in the Middle East, Wingate & his Chindits, Stirling with the SAS, etc. Even the SOE in WWII faced major issues in obtaining support. Those who were able to ‘do their own thing’ though default, such as Freddie Spencer Chapman* against the Japanese in occupied Malaya, never really got the necessary support.

There was a general in Northern Ireland back in the ‘70’s who said +/- ‘we will win because we have ha fa pah’ (higher fire power) and the statement coupled with his OTT accent seemed so totally incongruous that I remember it!

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."

Spot on.

* Chapman was a fascinating character, wrote 'The Jungle is Neutral' about his fight against the Japs; also was a pioneering explorer in Greenland mapping locations for airfields in the 1930's and a Himalayan climber. His biography by Moynihan from a couple of years ago is a good read.

slowburner

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.

We often hear that the Irish were amongst the originators of guerrilla tactics - is it a myth?
'Twould be an interesting thread.

dubhthach

slowburner wrote: »

We often hear that the Irish were amongst the originators of guerrilla tactics - is it a myth?
'Twould be an interesting thread.

If we were surely it would be known as "cogadhán" or "Coghadhaín" warfare

The term of course comes into English from Spanish to describe the Guerrilla war fought by the Spanish against the French during the Peninsular war and literally means "little war".

Goya's famous painting "The third of May 1808" depicts the execution by firing squad of Spanish Guerrillas by the French

tac foley

The Chinese general and strategist Sun Tzu, in his The Art of War (6th century BC), was one of the first proponents of the use of guerrilla warfare. The earliest description of guerrilla warfare is an alleged battle between Emperor Huaung and the Miao in China. Guerrilla warfare was not unique to China, nomadic and migratory tribes such as the Scythians, Goths, and Huns used elements of guerrilla warfare to fight the Persian Empire, Roman Empire, and Alexander the Great. In the Classic Ancient world, this kind of warfare was indirectly mentioned by the Greeks in Homeric stories, but usually as hit and run acts of foraging or booty in enemy territory, pretty much as later Vikings piracy. The Romans and Carthaginians learned of these tactics more as intended warfare by the Iberians before Viriathus and Hamilcar Barca in campaigns in Sicily against them.

'Harrying fighting' as it was called, was the predominant form of 'battle' used by the Celts and Germans against the Romans in NW Europe. In the end, the Romans gave up trying to take Germany as a result of the efforts of Arminius.

tac

pedroeibar1

I doubt that the inhabitants of Ireland were ‘originators’ although the Celts were appearing here and using bronze swords in 600BC when Sun-tzu wrote ‘The Art of War.’ That possibly has the first reference to guerrilla warfare, when he wrote that the ‘terrorist fish swims undetected in the sea of the citizenry who are sympathetic to his cause’ which was copied by Mao Zedong as ‘The guerrillas must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea’

edit - sorry Tac, took a phonecall before hitting posting tab and crossed with you.

Manach

It could be argued that British domestic politics were at play as well. There was an expectation of a peace dividend which could hardly be progressed whilst they were involved in Ireland. Previous suppression of Irish dissent did not have to factor in this, in fact would have looked unfavourable on any perceived softening of the stance on Ireland.

Jawgap

Nobody seems to have mentioned Alan Brooke, Fermanagh-man and Chief of the Imperial General Staff for most of WWII. He did a lot of the organising, strategising etc that went with the British war effort.

His greatest contribution was probably keeping some form of manners on Churchill. His frienship with Montgomery no doubt contributed to the latter's significant appointments.

Other notable Irish commanders were

Air Vice Marshall Richard Saul (Dublin) - AOC 12 Group during the Battle of Britain

Air Chief Marshall Percy Bernard, (Cork) - AOC 224 Group in Burmah

Brig. JOE Vandeleur (Clare) - OC 3rd Battalion Irish Guards he during Operation Market-Garden (his cousin Giles commanded 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards during the same operation)

At 'lower' levels there were plenty of other notables (in the RAF, anyway) - The Beamish brothers from Cork (Victor, George, Charles, and Cecil) - 2 ended up as Group Captains, one an Air Marshall and another an Air Vice Marshall as well as playing the odd game of rugby for Ireland, and winning a few games of golf.
- Brendan Finucane from Dublin, youngest Wing Commander in the history of the RAF
- 'Mick' Mannock from Cork, WWI Ace

Richard Holmes notes that the tradition of Scottish and Irish families in the British Army can be traced back to the early nineteenth century until emigration took over. Before that the only 'outlet' for second and younger sons in particular was service in the Army or Navy - or if they didn't fancy that, the church

In his description Holmes notes that the British Army was largely officered by Scots and Irish -I think he estimates that the early Victorian army was about 45% Scots and Irish officers - that kind of set up the tradition of certain families sending sons to serve.

Delancey

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brook was first cousin of Sir Basil Brook ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

The Vandeleurs were a long-established land-owning family.Many here will recall from their school history books photographs of an eviction taking place in the West of Ireland with police standing by while a battering ram is used to break down the cottage walls - that eviction was from a Vandeleur estate.

Jawgap

Lt Col Blair Mayne? an early OC of the SAS during WWII - also an Irish international rugby player.

Irish admirals in the 20th Century seem to be a bit scarce!

Snickers Man

Jawgap wrote: »

Nobody seems to have mentioned Alan Brooke, Fermanagh-man and Chief of the Imperial General Staff for most of WWII. He did a lot of the organising, strategising etc that went with the British war effort.

His greatest contribution was probably keeping some form of manners on Churchill. His frienship with Montgomery no doubt contributed to the latter's significant appointments.

Other notable Irish commanders were

Air Vice Marshall Richard Saul (Dublin) - AOC 12 Group during the Battle of Britain

Air Chief Marshall Percy Bernard, (Cork) - AOC 224 Group in Burmah

Brig. JOE Vandeleur (Clare) - OC 3rd Battalion Irish Guards he during Operation Market-Garden (his cousin Giles commanded 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards during the same operation)

At 'lower' levels there were plenty of other notables (in the RAF, anyway) - The Beamish brothers from Cork (Victor, George, Charles, and Cecil) - 2 ended up as Group Captains, one an Air Marshall and another an Air Vice Marshall as well as playing the odd game of rugby for Ireland, and winning a few games of golf.
- Brendan Finucane from Dublin, youngest Wing Commander in the history of the RAF
- 'Mick' Mannock from Cork, WWI Ace

Mannock wasn't Irish. At all.

His place of birth is uncertain and his dad was a soldier. He could have been born anywhere. His parents were English and Scottish and he was brought up in India and England.

Jawgap

Snickers Man wrote: »

Mannock wasn't Irish. At all.

His place of birth is uncertain and his dad was a soldier. He could have been born anywhere. His parents were English and Scottish and he was brought up in India and England.

His place of birth is generally accepted as Ballincollig, although it's not conclusive. His older brother was born in Aldershot and Edward, if he wasn't born in Ballincollig was probably born in Brighton. The confusion is due to the fact that his father enlisted under his mother's maiden name (Corringhame)

His parents were indeed English and Scottish and his father was a corporal so he moved not necessarily where his father went. While his father was in Egypt he and his mother and brother went back to Cork. He also lived in Dundalk for a bit.

When the dad's term of enlistment was up, he re-enlisted this time under Mannock and was sent to India where the family joined him a few months later

His 'Irishness' was fairly evident - Despite being christened Edward, he was nick-named 'Mick' and while in the RAMC he was nick-named 'Paddy' - apart from demonstrating a complete lack of imagination in the formulation of nick-names this suggests that he was perceived as Irish to those who knew him at first hand.

Also Captain W E Johns, who met him described him thus
“Irish by birth, he displayed all the impetuosity of the Irish. He was, of course, a fearless fighter. He was also a brilliant leader and exponent of the air combat tactics of his time.”

and there are plenty of other writers with first hand experience of meeting him who describe him as Irish

He was also mad as a box of frogs, although there's plenty of evidence to show he was actually suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

He was a strong supporter of Irish Home Rule and an ardent socialist -which may have contributed to the 'English' being happy to distance themselves from him, until more recently when his abilities were better recognised.

hivizman

Delancey wrote: »

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brooke was first cousin of Sir Basil Brooke ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

There's a (copyright) photo of Brookeborough here that could almost be the mirror image of the famous (also, alas, copyright) photo of Alanbrooke by Karsh of Ottawa that is available here. Search "Viscount Brookeborough" on Google Images to see both photos together.

By the way, Alanbrooke was actually born in France and lived there until he was 16, but he considered that his roots were in Fermanagh - his first wife was a close neighbour of the Brooke family in Fermanagh.

Another "by the way" - Colebrooke Park, the Brooke family home in Fermanagh, was featured last night (Thursday 14 June 2012) on Channel 4's Country House Rescue programme.

A final "by the way" - Earl Alexander of Tunis, who as Commander-in-Chief of Middle East Command and later Supreme Commander for the Italian campaign was Montgomery's commanding officer, was the son of the 4th Earl of Caledon, whose family owned estates in County Tyrone. Montgomery, Alanbrooke and Alexander are remembered through the names of roads in the Castlereagh Industrial Estate in South Belfast.

hivizman

hivizman wrote: »

Earl Alexander of Tunis, who as Commander-in-Chief of Middle East Command and later Supreme Commander for the Italian campaign was Montgomery's commanding officer, was the son of the 4th Earl of Caledon, whose family owned estates in County Tyrone. Montgomery, Alanbrooke and Alexander are remembered through the names of roads in the Castlereagh Industrial Estate in South Belfast.

Another Field Marshal with Ulster connections (this time actually born there) who is commemorated through a road on the Castlereagh Industrial Estate is Sir John Dill, who was Alanbrooke's predecessor as Chief of the Imperial General Staff. Dill was born in Lurgan, County Armagh, although he was educated in England. After passing through Sandhurst, he was commissioned into the Leinster Regiment.

thecommietommy

Delancey wrote: »

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brook was first cousin of Sir Basil Brook ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

The Vandeleurs were a long-established land-owning family.Many here will recall from their school history books photographs of an eviction taking place in the West of Ireland with police standing by while a battering ram is used to break down the cottage walls - that eviction was from a Vandeleur estate.

Montgomery's nephew Hugh Montgomery was a member of the notorious Cairo gang and was shot on the morning of Bloody Sunday by Collin’s Squad.

thecommietommy

Dev meeting Montgommery in 1967 under a picture of Padraig Pearse !!! Must have been an interesting conversation as Montgommery had been commander of the 17th Infantry Brigade in Cork 1921.