Frankel not going to Ireland

swimming in a sea

So Frankel is not going to be in the Red Mills Irish Champion Stakes, and i've my doubts about him going to York for the international over an extended 10f so it looks like champions day at Newmarket will be his last race and first go at 10f.

Its all underwhelming, he may be one of the best ever but he'll propably never have raced more than 50 miles from his stable.:(

match up with black caviar or camelot, zero chance,

RichieLawlor

swimming in a sea wrote: »

So Frankel is not going to be in the Red Mills Irish Champion Stakes, and i've my doubts about him going to York for the international over an extended 10f so it looks like champions day at Newmarket will be his last race and first go at 10f.

Its all underwhelming, he may be one of the best ever but he'll propably never have raced more than 50 miles from his stable.:(

match up with black caviar or camelot, zero chance,

He will run in the Eclipse, and then York. They didn't keep him in training to keep beating Excelebration

Colonel Sanders

I think York may well be his 1st try at 10f myself.

tryfix

Has anyone said he's being targeted at the Eclipse? IMO there's very little chance of him running in the Eclipse, the Queen Anne is on the 19th June, the eclipse is just 18 days later on the 7th July. Last year he ran in the St James Palace on the 14th June and was put away until the Sussex Stakes on the 27th July.

A second Sussex Stakes on the 1st August where he can kick Excelebration and Co around again, would be much more likely than 10f in the Eclipse against the likes of So You Think who should relish the stiff uphill finish at Sandown.

A second Sussex stakes by 4 or 5 lengths vs just holding on against So You Think. It's a no brainer.

If he goes over further it'll be in the owners Juddmonte International on the 22nd August followed by a lap of honour in the Champion Stakes or QE II on the 20th october.

I'm disappointed that he doesn't try 10f in the POW at Ascot, followed by a crack at the King George over 12f. We'll never get to see him at 12f and he'll be just another great horse, not the greatest.

RichieLawlor

tryfix wrote: »

Has anyone said he's being targeted at the Eclipse? IMO there's very little chance of him running in the Eclipse, the Queen Anne is on the 19th June, the eclipse is just 18 days later on the 7th July. Last year he ran in the St James Palace on the 14th June and was put away until the Sussex Stakes on the 27th July.

A second Sussex Stakes on the 1st August where he can kick Excelebration and Co around again, would be much more likely than 10f in the Eclipse against the likes of So You Think who should relish the stiff uphill finish at Sandown.

A second Sussex stakes by 4 or 5 lengths vs just holding on against So You Think. It's a no brainer.

If he goes over further it'll be in the owners Juddmonte International on the 22nd August followed by a lap of honour in the Champion Stakes or QE II on the 20th october.

I'm disappointed that he doesn't try 10f in the POW at Ascot, followed by a crack at the King George over 12f. We'll never get to see him at 12f and he'll be just another great horse, not the greatest.

There will be no 'just holding on' vs So You Think. When he does finally try a mile and a quarter I'm confident he will be equally explosive. It's not as if he is stopping at then end of his races. He's winning very very easily

tryfix

RichieLawlor wrote: »

There will be no 'just holding on' vs So You Think. When he does finally try a mile and a quarter I'm confident he will be equally explosive. It's not as if he is stopping at then end of his races. He's winning very very easily

I hope he does show that he's a monster at a longer distance. It won't be in the eclipse and it won't be against a top class champion 3yo Derby winner. His Royal Lodge win as a 2yo screamed 1m4f as a 3yo. There's a reason they're holding him back in distance, it could be stud value, or it could be that they're not convinced he'll be as good over further.

RichieLawlor

tryfix wrote: »

I hope he does show that he's a monster at a longer distance. It won't be in the eclipse and it won't be against a top class champion 3yo Derby winner. His Royal Lodge win as a 2yo screamed 1m4f as a 3yo. There's a reason they're holding him back in distance, it could be stud value, or it could be that they're not convinced he'll be as good over further.

The Royal lodge win, the one where he blasted for home off the bend and left them for dead? Are you serious? Nothing screamed less like a mile and a half horse.

10f will be within his range, just about. But he has never looked like he wanted 12f

tryfix

RichieLawlor wrote: »

The Royal lodge win, the one where he blasted for home off the bend and left them for dead? Are you serious? Nothing screamed less like a mile and a half horse.

10f will be within his range, just about. But he has never looked like he wanted 12f

Large distance winners of 8f 2yo races tend to be middle distance horses, especially when they win races like the Royal lodge.

It's hard to know, his brother Noble mission stays 10f, while his other brother Bullet train only seems to get 10f despite winning a Derby trial over 1m3f and is fast enough to be Frankel's pacemaker.

ft9

Did anyone really expect him to come to Ireland?

RichieLawlor

tryfix wrote: »

Large distance winners of 8f 2yo races tend to be middle distance horses, especially when they win races like the Royal lodge.

Maybe in general but nobody can say Frankel looked like a stayer in the Royal Lodge, he exploded off the bend

HigginsJ

ft9 wrote: »

Did anyone really expect him to come to Ireland?

No it's a pity though.

Cant wait to see him at 10f. Not a hope in hell he goes 12f. If he wins once at 10f it will put the stamp on him as GOAT.

Huntley

HigginsJ wrote: »

If he wins once at 10f it will put the stamp on him as GOAT.

Not even close.

ArmaniJeanss

Bizarre set of complaints really ; ranging from wanting him to take on BlackCaviar over 7F to taking in the King George over 12F.

PKA was sporting enough to keep the horse in training, people should really accept whatever decisions the connections come up with for his program.

Personally I'd agree theres a good chance they'll keep him to a mile until his last race. Simplifies his training regime, and it's not as if a mile is some sort of weird specialist distance for sub-par horses. And if does stick with a mile he won't have to 'keep beating Excelebration', there'll be new challengers bursting out of the IrishGuineas and the St James Palace waiting to take their chance against Frankel with wfa allowance.

tryfix

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Bizarre set of complaints really ; ranging from wanting him to take on BlackCaviar over 7F to taking in the King George over 12F.

PKA was sporting enough to keep the horse in training, people should really accept whatever decisions the connections come up with for his program.

Personally I'd agree theres a good chance they'll keep him to a mile until his last race. Simplifies his training regime, and it's not as if a mile is some sort of weird specialist distance for sub-par horses. And if does stick with a mile he won't have to 'keep beating Excelebration', there'll be new challengers bursting out of the IrishGuineas and the St James Palace waiting to take their chance against Frankel with wfa allowance.

We're being a bit greedy, we want to see him show us he's the full package. Name a truly legendary horse in Europe apart from Frankel himself that has never won at the top level over 1m 4f.

Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef., Nashwan, Zarkava. All top class at a range of distances.

Frankel's mile form is as good if not better than any of them. That's it though, even winning at 10f in decent races like the Juddmonte or the Champion stakes is a long way from taking a King George or an Arc. I'm not crabbing him, he's an extraordinary unbelievably good horse, I just want to see him show he's more than a miler who can possibly stretch to 10f.

swimming in a sea

one thing I've always wondered is why with a top class miler like Frankel or other class milers in the past, don't they race in the July Cup, as far as I'm concerned there is no way Dream ahead would have beaten Frankel last year and it looks like there is nothing to beat him this year.

Is it like the opposite of say a 12f horse going for the ledger, would winning the July Cup actually reduce his stud fee? Or possibly they would not like the traditional big field in that race.

Imhof Tank

tryfix wrote: »

Name a truly legendary horse in Europe apart from Frankel himself that has never won at the top level over 1m 4f.

I think you possibly equate "legendary" with "stayer" so you mightnt agree but i would suggest:-

Goldikova
Giants Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar

Imhof Tank

swimming in a sea wrote: »

one thing I've always wondered is why with a top class miler like Frankel or other class milers in the past, don't they race in the July Cup, as far as I'm concerned there is no way Dream ahead would have beaten Frankel last year and it looks like there is nothing to beat him this year.

Is it like the opposite of say a 12f horse going for the ledger, would winning the July Cup actually reduce his stud fee? Or possibly they would not like the traditional big field in that race.

They do - off the top of my head:-

Green Desert, Chief Singer, Royal Academy, Last Tycoon

A July Cup win as a 4yo for Frankel would add a lot more to his stud value than a 12f win I would say.

You used to hear AOB say of obvious middle distance runners "he has so much speed he could be a July Cup horse" :rolleyes:

meriwether

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I think you possibly equate "legendary" with "stayer" so you mightnt agree but i would suggest:-

Goldikova
Giants Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar

Frankel will go down as a Legend (most likely) but he will never be the greatest unless he does it at other distances.

Sea the Stars - Guineas, Eclipse, Derby, Arc. 1m, 1m2, 1m4 all ages taken on and beaten.

Arguably greatest of all time.

Frankel - bets the same horses over and over again (apart from Canford Cliffs) at the same distance.

Greatest of all time? Are you having a laugh?

Did anyone really actually give a lot of care to his last race? Beating excelibration again? I never saw that one coming. Sure, I watched it and yes he was poetry in motion, but it was a glorified racecourse gallop where the result was never in doubt.

I want to see him take on all comers at 1m2 and 1m4 (or even drop down to 7f and 6f if he wishes) and show his class over all distances.

His ownership are fully entitled to maximise their business interest by keeping him unbeaten at 1m, but they will have no right to claim him as GOAT at a future date after confining him to a conservative career at the same distance beating the same horses, again and again.

Thats why I prefer NH. Its like boxing. The new contendor comes again and again, and you beat him or lose the crown.

tryfix

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I think you possibly equate "legendary" with "stayer" so you mightnt agree but i would suggest:-

Goldikova
Giants Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar

Top class horses, George Washington and Miesque and many others were top class horses as good as any of them.

Warning on one of his going days would have beaten them easily, who talks about Warning in the same breath as a Njinsky or a Dancing Brave?

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result_home.sd?race_id=93525&r_date=1988-09-24&popup=yes#results_top_tabs=re_&results_bottom_tabs=ANALYSIS

Frankel is in the truly exceptional category, by dint of his consistent jaw dropping performances over a mile. He has won his races leaving no doubt that he is not just good but exceptional.

He has stayed in his comfort zone. Beating Excelebration by 5 lengths is impressive, it's doubtful that Excelebration is within 5l of the greatest milers we've ever seen. I'm not crabbing Frankel's form, he just needs to show that there's more to him than that, we'll always be left to ponder where he stands in the pantheon of all time greats.