Ruling about ball not on ground?

ForeRight

Played a while back when something strange happened.

My mate hit a tee shot on a par 3 and the ball went into a bush at the side of the green. Whe we got up to the bush the ball was sitting in the bush and probably 2 foot off the ground just resting nicely in the leafs.

It was unplayable really unless you are going to swing the club up at your hips to try make contact with the ball. Most likely miss it and the ball would fall and bury itself in the bush.

My mate thought he could "bang" off the bush by accident which may cause the ball to fall out nicely onto the grass I told him that if he done anything to cause the ball to move it was a penalty(my understanding anyway)

Eventually we agreed that he could drop back no nearer the hole within 2 club lenghts and take a penalty drop.


Were we right? Whats the official rule?

Nonoperational

Unplayable and penalty drop is right I'd say.

SnowDrifts

He could also have gone back as far as he wanted and drop the ball along a line of the unplayable lie and the flag.

PhilipMarlowe

Correct. See decision 28/11

He was entitled to drop within 2 club lengths of a spot on the ground directly under where the ball was in the bush as one of the unplayable options in rule 28.
He could also keep the flag and the ball in a line and go back as far as he wanted on that line and drop (ball being off the ground has no relevance here).
Also, could have re-hit from the previous place (tee box).

ForeRight

Ok cheers for that lads.


My mate was saying to me last week that every player should read the little book of the rules of golf inside out. He said that if you read the book you will notice that there are far more relief drops than penalties etc but when on a course all your playing partners seem to all know is all the penalties and have no problem telling you about it.

Most lads dont know about all the relief that is available on the course.

mcgarrett

Did Goosen not play a shot like that last night?

Howjoe1

one part of the question is still unanswered.

what if he shook the bush causing it to fall down into a playable position (knowingly or unknowingly), would he be penalised?

what i mean by unknowingly is, he is not certain his ball is in the bush but shakes it resulting in it dropping to the ground and playable

SnowDrifts

You can only shake the bush to get it down after you have declared you are going to take an unplayable lie. Failure to do so would incur a penalty and you having to replace the ball in the bush!

matt-dublin

what if the wind blew the bush :P

The rules are play it as it lies or deem it unplayable.

Drop within two clublengths of lying position or back as far as you want keeping the point of entry to the hazard between you and pin. Penalty of 1 stroke.

matt-dublin

what if the wind blew the bush :P

The rules are play it as it lies or deem it unplayable.

Drop within two clublengths of lying position or back as far as you want keeping the point of entry to the hazard between you and pin. Penalty of 1 stroke.

onlyfinewine

matt-dublin wrote: »

what if the wind blew the bush :P

I think that is a good question and depends on when the wind blew the bush.

Obviously if the wind moved the bush and the ball fell down before you arrived at the bush it would be a rub of the green and the ball would be played as it lies.
As you get closer to the time at which you either declare it unplayable or attempt to play it from the bush it gets trickier to know what the correct procedure to follow would be.
I imagine that you have to identify the ball and establish that it is actually yours or declare that you are going to shake the bush in order to retrieve what you think is your ball lodged in it.
If the wind shakes the bush and the ball falls down before you make a declaration or identify your ball it should be ok to proceed as you have done nothing to influence the movement of the ball.
I'm sure there is already a precedent for this but rather than look it up I would like people to say what they think should happen.
(Do you know that to pass a refereeing course for the GUI you only have to get a pass mark?)
That indicates to me that the rules of golf have evolved to the stage where you need a judge and jury to determine the correct result and a sense of fair play and fewer rules would suit the modern golfer better.

charlieIRL

got a good one for you, was playing New Forest there a while back and on the 10th hole (I Think, down the hill to the left and green far side of the road) Anyway there is a large tree just to the front right of the green and its covered in ivy. Hit a cracker of a second shot right into the tree about halfway up and ball stuck in the ivy!! Never found it!!

matt-dublin

This all reminds me of a certain Phil mickleson situation recently....

nompere

Google will help you to find a video, but here's a link to a story about a shot Bernhard Langer played more than thirty years ago (it doesn't feel that long - I must be getting old).

http://www.treeblog.co.uk/viewpost.php?id=338

david

Happened to me before on the 6th in Coollattin. My ball was wedged about 10ft off the ground in a leylandii tree. In the process of identifying my ball marking (climbing the tree) the ball popped down into a clear patch of rough. I played my ball as it was and recorded two scores, awaiting a committee ruling.

Turns out I needed to first throw the ball back up into the tree, then take either two clubs relief from the spot on the ground below, play inline with the tree and pin as far back as I wanted, or go back and rehit from the spot I hit my second stroke. All options with a penalty stroke in addition to the one I got for climbing the tree!

SnowDrifts

Here is the video mentioned above - not a bad effort!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iibc9uJjY

onlyfinewine

david wrote: »

Happened to me before on the 6th in Coollattin. My ball was wedged about 10ft off the ground in a leylandii tree. In the process of identifying my ball marking (climbing the tree) the ball popped down into a clear patch of rough. I played my ball as it was and recorded two scores, awaiting a committee ruling.

Turns out I needed to first throw the ball back up into the tree, then take either two clubs relief from the spot on the ground below, play inline with the tree and pin as far back as I wanted, or go back and rehit from the spot I hit my second stroke. All options with a penalty stroke in addition to the one I got for climbing the tree!

That is the area where it starts to be a little nonsensical in my opinion. Firstly you were checking the marking on the ball and were extremely unlikely to attempt playing a shot from 10 feet in the air wedged in a leylandii bush and the suggestion that you should throw your ball back into the same bush seems ludicrous to say the least. I'd love to know how you are supposed to figure that one out!

Sandwlch

"18-2a/29
Ball Dislodged from Tree; Replacement of Ball Not Possible

Q. A player, believing his ball is lodged in a tree, shakes the tree in order to dislodge it. His ball falls to the ground. According to Decision 18-2a/28, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and must replace his ball. Suppose, however, that the player cannot replace his ball either:

(1) because the spot where it lay in the tree is not determinable, or

(2) because the ball fails to remain on the correct spot when replaced, or

(3) because the player cannot reach the spot where the ball lay.

How should the player proceed in each of these three circumstances?

A. Rules 20-3c and 20-3d would normally cover circumstances (1) and (2), but these Rules do not contemplate a situation such as the one described. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), in the first two circumstances the ball must be placed in the tree as near as possible to the spot from which it was moved, and in the third circumstance the player must proceed under the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke."

In your case you were not moving the ball to identify it, but moved it through your action of climbing the tree. So a penalty stroke.

Then you state you were in circumstance 3. So you must drop and incur another penalty stroke. So correct except for the throwing the ball into the tree bit.

onlyfinewine

With all due respect this is the the kind of ruling that definitely shows that the rules need updating from current practice.

There are 4 rules quoted with 3 exceptions and eventually the suggestion that equity should prevail, followed by the suggestion that throwing the ball up the tree was possibly incorrect?

Who has the time or inclination to go through all these options when slow play is a definite problem and equity is the suggested course of action in the end?

Ludicrous as I said earlier, the rules need to be made simple and more user friendly.

They are in the arcane language of lawyers using case law and could do with being made more modern and relevant.

By the way I am not having a go at Sandwich whose post is probably technically correct, but merely pointing out that in my opinion golfers do not have the time to study the rulebook fully, together with the "Decisions on the rules of golf" which is a mighty tome, and have these all to mind before taking what appears to be the correct action to progress the game.

Sandwlch wrote: »

"18-2a/29
Ball Dislodged from Tree; Replacement of Ball Not Possible

Q. A player, believing his ball is lodged in a tree, shakes the tree in order to dislodge it. His ball falls to the ground. According to Decision 18-2a/28, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and must replace his ball. Suppose, however, that the player cannot replace his ball either:

(1) because the spot where it lay in the tree is not determinable, or

(2) because the ball fails to remain on the correct spot when replaced, or

(3) because the player cannot reach the spot where the ball lay.

How should the player proceed in each of these three circumstances?

A. Rules 20-3c and 20-3d would normally cover circumstances (1) and (2), but these Rules do not contemplate a situation such as the one described. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), in the first two circumstances the ball must be placed in the tree as near as possible to the spot from which it was moved, and in the third circumstance the player must proceed under the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke."

In your case you were not moving the ball to identify it, but moved it through your action of climbing the tree. So a penalty stroke.

Then you state you were in circumstance 3. So you must drop and incur another penalty stroke. So correct except for the throwing the ball into the tree bit.