Immovable Obstructions & Local Rules

ShriekingSheet

Interested in people's thoughts on this.

Ball is in a bunker. Wooden steps down into the bunker are in your back swing. He checks the local rules which state the "all paths, walls, shelters and sprinkler heads are immovable obstructions", but there's no mention of steps. Does he get relief?

I wasn't sure, but it seemed rational to me that as steps weren't listed, they were part of the course, and no relief could be taken.

However, I just checked the rules and they say anything artificial is an obstruction. It does not have to be in the local rules to be an obstruction at all. So you do get relief.

In fact, local rules that list some obstriuction confuse things - they don't need to.

More confusing still, as per the rules of golf, the only time local rules need to list an obstruction is to specifically declare it part of the course. I think this is the case in the European Club, where they specifically say the railway sleepers are part of the course, as if they didn't say this, you'd have relief.

I'm pretty sure I'm right here, and hope this clears it up for people.

Dormy

Are boundary fence posts/walls immoveable obstructions?

cackhanded

Dormy wrote: »

Are boundary fence posts/walls immoveable obstructions?

They are usually an integral part of the course though but can be immovable obstructions depending on local rule.

aubreym

this is a question on the St Andrews rules of golf page somewhere, but cant find it.

if not mentioned in local rules, part of course & play it as it lies, (sideways more often).

AldilaMan

Dormy wrote: »

Are boundary fence posts/walls immoveable obstructions?

Boundary fences or white stakes defining out of bounds can never be removed.

GreeBo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Interested in people's thoughts on this.

Ball is in a bunker. Wooden steps down into the bunker are in your back swing. He checks the local rules which state the "all paths, walls, shelters and sprinkler heads are immovable obstructions", but there's no mention of steps. Does he get relief?

I wasn't sure, but it seemed rational to me that as steps weren't listed, they were part of the course, and no relief could be taken.

However, I just checked the rules and they say anything artificial is an obstruction. It does not have to be in the local rules to be an obstruction at all. So you do get relief.

In fact, local rules that list some obstriuction confuse things - they don't need to.

More confusing still, as per the rules of golf, the only time local rules need to list an obstruction is to specifically declare it part of the course. I think this is the case in the European Club, where they specifically say the railway sleepers are part of the course, as if they didn't say this, you'd have relief.

I'm pretty sure I'm right here, and hope this clears it up for people.

For me steps in a bunker are not artificial.
Courtesy tents and leaderboards are obstructions they are temporary.

Dormy

AldilaMan wrote: »

Boundary fences or white stakes defining out of bounds can never be removed.

Is this not why things are called immoveable? Not so sure about white stakes though.
I'm still not clear on this. Assuming there is no mention of boundary fences or walls in the local rules, then are they immoveable obstructions or integral parts of the course? OP is suggesting they are immoveable obstructions if I am reading it correctly. I would have always thought the opposite.
Not trying to smart here just a little unsure

AldilaMan

Dormy wrote: »

Is this not why things are called immoveable? Not so sure about white stakes though.
I'm still not clear on this. Assuming there is no mention of boundary fences or walls in the local rules, then are they immoveable obstructions or integral parts of the course? OP is suggesting they are immoveable obstructions if I am reading it correctly. I would have always thought the opposite.
Not trying to smart here just a little unsure

Boundary fences and white stakes defining out of bounds are an integral part of the course and cannot be removed under the rules of golf. As regards the OP I'm not quite sure what point Sheet is making as to whether they are an immovable obstruction or not but as far as I'm concerned steps in a bunker would be an integral part of the course unless defined as otherwise within the local rules.

There is a similar situation at the 8th hole in Hollywood Lakes where a wall was built between the lake and the green for a nice visual effect. A bunker was then built (stupidly IMO) between the wall and the green. It is possible for a ball to come to rest in the bunker very close to the wall giving you no shot at the ball without hitting the wall. A local rule was then created that you could drop your ball into a drop zone (grass) under penalty of 1 stroke if the wall impeded your backswing. Rediculous :mad:

Russman

Dormy wrote: »

AldilaMan wrote: »

Boundary fences or white stakes defining out of bounds can never be removed.

Is this not why things are called immoveable? Not so sure about white stakes though.
I'm still not clear on this. Assuming there is no mention of boundary fences or walls in the local rules, then are they immoveable obstructions or integral parts of the course? OP is suggesting they are immoveable obstructions if I am reading it correctly. I would have always thought the opposite.
Not trying to smart here just a little unsure

Stakes identifying or defining OOB are not obstructions and are deemed fixed.
There can be a local rule that stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds are declared obstructions.

Op, I'd reckon steps into a bunker are just integral parts of the course. Can't find a definition though !

AldilaMan

Russman wrote: »

Stakes identifying or defining OOB are not obstructions and are deemed fixed.
There can be a local rule that stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds are declared obstructions.

Op, I'd reckon steps into a bunker are just integral parts of the course. Can't find a definition though !

Can you explain what you mean here. The only white stakes I've ever come accross on a golf course define the out of bounds.

Russman

AldilaMan wrote: »

Russman wrote: »

Stakes identifying or defining OOB are not obstructions and are deemed fixed.
There can be a local rule that stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds are declared obstructions.

Op, I'd reckon steps into a bunker are just integral parts of the course. Can't find a definition though !

Can you explain what you mean here. The only white stakes I've ever come accross on a golf course define the out of bounds.

Not really, I'm just quoting the rule ! I can't figure it out myself to be honest. If a stake is identifying OOB surely it must actually BE OOB and moving it or not is a moot point....?

ernieprice

Boundry walls, fences, railings stakes (white) etc all defining OOB are fixed and are NOT classed as obstructions. These stakes can not be removed.
Rules of Golf, page 30 defines obstructions.

Milkers

Russman wrote: »

Not really, I'm just quoting the rule ! I can't figure it out myself to be honest. If a stake is identifying OOB surely it must actually BE OOB and moving it or not is a moot point....?

Unless there are some stakes that somehow indicate "OOB ten feet thataway -->" they would therefore identify but not define OOB. Never seen it but I can see how it is possible?

Russman

Milkers wrote: »

Russman wrote: »

Not really, I'm just quoting the rule ! I can't figure it out myself to be honest. If a stake is identifying OOB surely it must actually BE OOB and moving it or not is a moot point....?

Unless there are some stakes that somehow indicate "OOB ten feet thataway -->" they would therefore identify but not define OOB. Never seen it but I can see how it is possible?

With a wily coyote hiding behind it !! :-)

PhilipMarlowe

Milkers wrote: »

Unless there are some stakes that somehow indicate "OOB ten feet thataway -->" they would therefore identify but not define OOB. Never seen it but I can see how it is possible?

For water hazards, you can have a line marking the boundary and stakes which identify that there is a hazard in the area. The stakes should be outside the line and then they are moveable.
For OOB, I've never seen where white stakes wouldn't be the defining markers but a search has shown that you can have a white stake with a black top that identifies OOB nearby:

R&A wrote:

It is not uncommon for the boundary line to be defined by a trench, with a ball being out of bounds if it is in or beyond the trench. If stakes are used to draw players’ attention to a boundary trench, rather than define the boundary itself, they should be painted white with black tops. As such stakes do not define the boundary they will be movable obstructions. This point should be clarified in the Local Rules.

from http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Guidance-on-Running-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=3&section=1

AldilaMan

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

For water hazards, you can have a line marking the boundary and stakes which identify that there is a hazard in the area. The stakes should be outside the line and then they are moveable.
For OOB, I've never seen where white stakes wouldn't be the defining markers but a search has shown that you can have a white stake with a black top that identifies OOB nearby:

from http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Guidance-on-Running-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=3&section=1

Excellent research. I wouldn't expect any less from you.

Milkers

Milkers wrote: »

Unless there are some stakes that somehow indicate "OOB ten feet thataway -->" they would therefore identify but not define OOB. Never seen it but I can see how it is possible?

Ah so not a bad guess as it turns out, though as Russman says you'd want to be a bit suspicious if the stake in question was manufactured by the Acme company.

ShriekingSheet

Russman wrote: »

Op, I'd reckon steps into a bunker are just integral parts of the course. Can't find a definition though !

GreeBo wrote: »

For me steps in a bunker are not artificial.
Courtesy tents and leaderboards are obstructions they are temporary.

Nonsense. The rule states "an obstruction is anything artificial". If your ball landed under steps going up the side of a tee-box would you take a penalty? How are paths and roads obstructions, but steps aren't?

Greebo, why are you referring to "temporary"? There's absolutely nothing in the rule that implies something needs to be temporary to be considered an obstruction. In fact, all the examples given in the rule are permanent.

It's not like it's a cheeky trick to get a hugely beneficial drop. You have to drop it within the bunker, and if you can only get relief (no nearer the hole) by dropping out of the bunker, it costs you a shot.

GreeBo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Nonsense. The rule states "an obstruction is anything artificial". If your ball landed under steps going up the side of a tee-box would you take a penalty? How are paths and roads obstructions, but steps aren't?

Greebo, why are you referring to "temporary"? There's absolutely nothing in the rule that implies something needs to be temporary to be considered an obstruction. In fact, all the examples given in the rule are permanent.

It's not like it's a cheeky trick to get a hugely beneficial drop. You have to drop it within the bunker, and if you can only get relief (no nearer the hole) by dropping out of the bunker, it costs you a shot.

Ok so look at it this way. Typically a bunker that has steps will be very steep, would you consider the steep sides of a bunker an obstruction?

I was saying temporary to distinguish between something thats not a natural part of the golf course (like a scoreboard or sponsors tent). Steps in a pot bunker are an integral part of the course for me.

Another example would be how a banana skin is a moveable obstruction in my course, but not on any course thats on/near a banana plantation. They are considered an integral part of the course in those locations and, to me at least, on a pot bunker course, so are steps.

What if the steps are just made of soil and not wooden...do you still get relief in your opinion?

/edit
And I would take a penalty if I was on the steps of a tee and not the path. Steps on a tee are part of the course for me.

Sandwlch

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok so look at it this way. Typically a bunker that has steps will be very steep, would you consider the steep sides of a bunker an obstruction?

I was saying temporary to distinguish between something thats not a natural part of the golf course (like a scoreboard or sponsors tent). Steps in a pot bunker are an integral part of the course for me.

Another example would be how a banana skin is a moveable obstruction in my course, but not on any course thats on/near a banana plantation. They are considered an integral part of the course in those locations and, to me at least, on a pot bunker course, so are steps.

What if the steps are just made of soil and not wooden...do you still get relief in your opinion?

/edit
And I would take a penalty if I was on the steps of a tee and not the path. Steps on a tee are part of the course for me.

What you talkin bout GreeBo?
The rules as you understand them to be, or how you think they should be ? A banana skin is a movable obstruction anywhere. How do you define 'near' ? If your course has chestnut trees you cant move a chestnut beside your ball?

GreeBo

Sandwlch wrote: »

What you talkin bout GreeBo?
1)The rules as you understand them to be, or how you think they should be ? 2)A banana skin is a movable obstruction anywhere. How do you define 'near' ? If your course has chestnut trees you cant move a chestnut beside your ball?

1)The rules as they are.

2)Not in a hazard you cant no.

onlyfinewine

I think the following definitions help us to understand the position in relation to the queries being put on this thread.


Obstructions
An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and
sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:
a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and
railings;
b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and
c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part
of the course.
An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without
unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing
damage. Otherwise, it is an immovable obstruction.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable
obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

Bunker
A “bunker’’ is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a
hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with
sand or the like.
Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked
turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker.
A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker.
The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not
upwards.
A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

Finally the blessed banana skin, unfortunately this is not defined in the definitions but it certainly is a slippery problem and as it is a natural product would be classed with stones, twigs, and leaves as a "loose impediment"
Loose Impediments
“Loose impediments’’ are natural objects, including:
• stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
• dung, and
• worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,
provided they are not:
• fixed or growing,
• solidly embedded, or
• adhering to the ball.
Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not
elsewhere.
Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose
impediments, at the option of the player.
Dew and frost are not loose impediments.

Loose Impediments (Rule 23)
You may move a loose impediment (i.e. natural loose objects such as
stones, detached leaves and twigs) unless the loose impediment and
your ball are in the same hazard. If you remove a loose impediment
and this causes your ball to move, the ball must be replaced and
(unless your ball was on the putting green) you incur a one-stroke
penalty. (Rule 23-1)

ShriekingSheet

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok so look at it this way. Typically a bunker that has steps will be very steep, would you consider the steep sides of a bunker an obstruction?

I was saying temporary to distinguish between something thats not a natural part of the golf course (like a scoreboard or sponsors tent). Steps in a pot bunker are an integral part of the course for me.

Another example would be how a banana skin is a moveable obstruction in my course, but not on any course thats on/near a banana plantation. They are considered an integral part of the course in those locations and, to me at least, on a pot bunker course, so are steps.

What if the steps are just made of soil and not wooden...do you still get relief in your opinion?

/edit
And I would take a penalty if I was on the steps of a tee and not the path. Steps on a tee are part of the course for me.

Are we talking about golf or Pirate's Cove?

All that matters is the rule. As I quoted before, "anything artificial" is an obstruction.

The natural landscaping of the course, be it steep sides of bunkers or "soil steps" (lol) are all green & growing or just general turf that is landscaped- not artificial, and no relief is available.

Steps, benches, shelters, tarmac paths are all artificial, so rather than having to dice with breaking your club or your wrist, the rules have very reasonably provided a pragmatic solution.

All of the above are put on the course to help you not slip into a bunker or on a tee-box slope, shelter from rain, or to get the green-keeping machinery around the course - not to act as extra trickery for the players, ie: absolutely not "integral".

If you want to hit your ball off wooden steps, or take uneccesary penalities, fine. All the better for the rest of us.

coddlesangers

Immovable obstruction, take relief - drop in the bunker at the nearest point of relief, even if closer to the hole (odd bunker exception), or drop out of the bunker for a 1 shot penno.

GreeBo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Are we talking about golf or Pirate's Cove?

All that matters is the rule. As I quoted before, "anything artificial" is an obstruction.

The natural landscaping of the course, be it steep sides of bunkers or "soil steps" (lol) are all green & growing or just general turf that is landscaped- not artificial, and no relief is available.

Steps, benches, shelters, tarmac paths are all artificial, so rather than having to dice with breaking your club or your wrist, the rules have very reasonably provided a pragmatic solution.

All of the above are put on the course to help you not slip into a bunker or on a tee-box slope, shelter from rain, or to get the green-keeping machinery around the course - not to act as extra trickery for the players, ie: absolutely not "integral".

If you want to hit your ball off wooden steps, or take uneccesary penalities, fine. All the better for the rest of us.

The rule is not just "anything artificial", some artificial things can be deemed integral parts of the course.
I'm afraid that you don't get to decide what's integral and what isn't, the course committee does.
For example internal walls are integral parts of many courses and will break your wrists, no pirates required.
:rolleyes:

Imhof Tank

GreeBo wrote: »

The rule is not just "anything artificial", some artificial things can be deemed integral parts of the course.
I'm afraid that you don't get to decide what's integral and what isn't, the course committee does.
For example internal walls are integral parts of many courses and will break your wrists, no pirates required.
:rolleyes:

The default position is that you get relief from anything artificial unless a local rule deems it an integral part of the course. So the only issues are:-

1. Is what you are looking at artificial?
2. If so, is there a local rule deeming it intergral?
3. If yes, play as it lies; If no - take relief.

There is no need to assess the quality or degree of artificiality, how steep steps are, how steep adjacent bunker sides are etc - all irrelevant.

Imhof Tank

GreeBo wrote: »

Steps in a pot bunker are an integral part of the course for me.

. Steps on a tee are part of the course for me.

Dont understand your logic here at all

Are you saying the player has some discretion in these cases (independent of the committe and its local rules) and that in your personal opinion these are integral parts of the course even if there is no local rule? And therefore by extention anyone taking relief is actually cheating -is that what you are saying?

ShriekingSheet

GreeBo wrote: »

The rule is not just "anything artificial", some artificial things can be deemed integral parts of the course.
I'm afraid that you don't get to decide what's integral and what isn't, the course committee does.
For example internal walls are integral parts of many courses and will break your wrists, no pirates required.
:rolleyes:

One last time.

I'll quote the full relevent part of the rule for you.

"An obstruction is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths ... except any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part
of the course."

Translation: If it's artificial and not declared by committee to be integral, you get relief.

Steps, internal walls, or anything artificial have to be listed in the local rules as integral to be integral. They do not have to be listed as obstructions to be obstructions.

Are steps listed in your course as integral parts of the course?

Cop on will you. I might save you a penalty drop some day.

Milkers

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok so look at it this way. Typically a bunker that has steps will be very steep, would you consider the steep sides of a bunker an obstruction?

I was saying temporary to distinguish between something thats not a natural part of the golf course (like a scoreboard or sponsors tent). Steps in a pot bunker are an integral part of the course for me.

Another example would be how a banana skin is a moveable obstruction in my course, but not on any course thats on/near a banana plantation. They are considered an integral part of the course in those locations and, to me at least, on a pot bunker course, so are steps.

What if the steps are just made of soil and not wooden...do you still get relief in your opinion?

/edit
And I would take a penalty if I was on the steps of a tee and not the path. Steps on a tee are part of the course for me.

And that's exactly why the Rules and local committee decisions exist, so that your feeling or opinion is irrelevant.

GreeBo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

One last time.

I'll quote the full relevent part of the rule for you.

"An obstruction is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths ... except any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part
of the course."

Translation: If it's artificial and not declared by committee to be integral, you get relief.

Steps, internal walls, or anything artificial have to be listed in the local rules as integral to be integral. They do not have to be listed as obstructions to be obstructions.

Are steps listed in your course as integral parts of the course?

Cop on will you. I might save you a penalty drop some day.

Hence my stating "the committee does" in my post above that you quoted?

My point was that on lots of courses (especially those with deep, pot bunkers) steps are integral parts of the course and that personally I think they should be in all courses. Hence the "for me" in my posts.

Maybe next time dont let your keyboard rage blind you from understanding another opinion?

No need for the attitude either buddy.:cool:

Milkers wrote: »

And that's exactly why the Rules and local committee decisions exist, so that your feeling or opinion is irrelevant.

Lol.
Do you typically just regurgitate others opinions or do you sometimes form them for yourself?

Milkers

GreeBo wrote: »

I've made a bit of a fool of myself by being completely wrong in this thread so now I'll just start personally attacking people to deflect.

FYP