Garage is charging for their mistake

Firblog

Story

OH had problem with Honda CRV, bought it to garage that was highly recommended, they tested and said that the timing belt/chain needed to be replaced; this they did and gave the car a service at same time.

Cost €1000!

5/6 weeks later, engine cuts out crossing a main road and we barely make it to the other side. I got guy I know (mechanic) to come an see if he could tell what's wrong, told him what work had been done but he still said belt had slipped/broke.. Told garage and they came with trailer and took it to fix it.
Garage admitted that the belt was faulty and that they would replace it.

That was 7 weeks ago...

They have said that this was wrong and that was wrong, have said four different times that it would be ready next day and never has. Latest is that they needed to replace some/the camshaft, and needed to buy engine from breaker €400, but that the cam is different in this engine, so have switched the engines.... and the engine mgt is still throwing up an error.

OH thinks that they are going to charge for this messing, I can't see how they can...

Does anyone on here know where she stands legally if they present her with a bill when they finally fix it (if ever)?

Cheers

MidlandsM

You need to have a serious conversation with the service manager there and put your questions to him. If you do not get the answers you want, seek legal advice.

imho, they need to fix it, and return it to you asap .....holding up their end of the bargain.

Firblog

Service manager is the owner/chief mechanic :mad:

I may be jumping the gun here, they may not charge at all, but just want to know where she stands if they do...

Alanstrainor

Moved to Motors, not DIY.

TPM

IMHO If they admitted it was their mistake and/or faulty parts they fitted that caused the damage it is their responsibility to put it right.

I second what MidlandsM says.

One thing that concerns me is
"they needed to replace some/the camshaft, and needed to buy engine from breaker €400, but that the cam is different in this engine, so have switched the engines.... and the engine mgt is still throwing up an error"

You need to make sure the engine is the right spec for your car, cc, power, emissions etc. so it doesnt come back on you in the nct, resale, or in the event of an accident.

The tax book/documents will need to be updated with the new engine details.

is their any history of the replacement engine milage, service etc, it could be an oil burner on its last legs and if it turns out to be are the garage going to stand over it.

I know the above doesnt really help you sort out your problem but I hope it can help it from causing you more trouble in the future.

I hope you get it sorted soon

carbon nanotube

I had my clutch done by some c0ck in leicester on the accord.

he broke the abs sensor drivers side while doing the job (had to remove half the car to get into the clutch), of course he was having none of it...

so apart from breaking the abs sensor, he left a trail of lights on my dash board and I had to get them reset by another auto diagnostic guy.

new sensor 180gbp from Honda but i got one for 80gbp elsewhere. anyway... that pri.k did not even replace the MTF fluid afterwards, 1,000 miles later I was getting a passenger shaft replaced (which said useless mechanic should have spotted) and the mechanic said do you know you have almost no MTF .

what a cu.t.. some garages should be closed down.

wonski

OP,so far garage has not charged you, i would wait and see what they come up with when you pick up your car.
On the other hand - new engine, and all - are they competent enough?
If they do it properly, and won't charge - i would not complain.
Some of the mechanics on here may have more knowledge about what went wrong, let us know what engine/year your car is?

Nissan doctor

Regardless of if they have charged you or not.....there is no excuse or reason for a repair like this to take 7 weeks.

I'd be very wary of the quality of repair your going to get.

Firblog

The garage and the guy who runs it have a very good reputation for quality of their work, if not for their customer care...

I have to say, if it was my car i'd have been having words with him long ago, the run around he has given her is unbelievable.

But what can ye do?

He has the jeep, is making efforts to fix it, if you take it off him an get someone else to do the job you'd be out a fortune..

dharn

replacing the engine sounds unsatisfactory to me, just because it did not have the same cams as the original one it is therefore a differnt engine ,do you know what engine you are getting and what service history , mileage etc it has ??

Firblog

dharn wrote: »

do you know what engine you are getting and what service history , mileage etc it has ??

Guys I know nothing about the whole thing apart from what I've outlined..

Just looking for advice to give her as to the best way to approach this

---

I take it that any form of payment for this 'repair' is a no no?

Also from what you all have said I should tell her to

Get all details of the new engine from the garage
Get them to give an undertaking to stand over this new engine - give a warranty with it, so if it turns out to be a dud they'll have to fix again?

Anything else anyone would recommend?

dharn

i would be more inclined to have original engine, or at least very same engine fitted he seems to have changed the engine because the cams on the spare were different, so that would mean the original engine was repairable , just needed camshafts , so that's what i would insist on

Firblog

dharn wrote: »

i would be more inclined to have original engine, or at least very same engine fitted he seems to have changed the engine because the cams on the spare were different, so that would mean the original engine was repairable , just needed camshafts , so that's what i would insist on

Aye, I'd be inclined to go that way myself if this were a normal situation; I don't believe he actually knows what is wrong with the engine. Several times now he said that he has tracked down the fault and replaced the part, only for the engine mgt to throw up an error again. He has even - so he says - replaced/re-installed the software on the engine mgt system? (sorry I'm like a cow looking at a radio where engines are concerned :rolleyes:)

So I actually thought that putting a whole good engine in would sort the problem In one swoop, but latest is that was done yesterday and still the management system is showing an error....

Redjeep!

What you probably need to be careful of is any discussion around 'betterment'. this means that the garage is obliged to fix the problem that they caused so that the car/ engine is in the same state as it was just before the failure, however they'd have a good argument to charge you for any work that they do that makes the car better than it was.

For instance, if they suggest that they put in a new engine, you'd be in a better condition than beforehand and so they'd be within their rights to charge you for the difference between fixing the problem and improving it.

I'm not saying that's what they're planning to do, probably not, just saying that they'd be within their rights.

I'd have the discussion now, before it gets too late. You may also want to discuss the root cause of the problem as they may have a different opinion about what caused it. It may be something unrelated to what they did.

OldmanMondeo

Redjeep! wrote: »

What you probably need to be careful of is any discussion around 'betterment'. this means that the garage is obliged to fix the problem that they caused so that the car/ engine is in the same state as it was just before the failure, however they'd have a good argument to charge you for any work that they do that makes the car better than it was.

For instance, if they suggest that they put in a new engine, you'd be in a better condition than beforehand and so they'd be within their rights to charge you for the difference between fixing the problem and improving it.

I'm not saying that's what they're planning to do, probably not, just saying that they'd be within their rights.

I'd have the discussion now, before it gets too late. You may also want to discuss the root cause of the problem as they may have a different opinion about what caused it. It may be something unrelated to what they did.

Never heard of that and if I was in that position the garage would be told where to go. Not OP fault that the garage fecked up. Had the job been done right the first time, no other work would be needed. OP didn't ask for a new improved engine, just the current one working as it was before the belt slipped.

Any idea the legal standpoint in that?

What is the legal stand point on that?

Firblog

Girlfriend is of the opinion that he is going to charge €400 for the engine, and also for the labour involved in putting it in! Seemingly Garage is now saying that this cam problem was pre-existing and had nothing to do with the faulty timing belt going, so she has to pay for this fix.
She will have to pay him as she cannot do without it any longer, costing her a fortune on taxis (when she doesn't have my car)

Right now I think that she should get receipts and a list of all work done; then pay him, and then take him to the small claims court; let a judge decide if he thinks it's a bit fishy that this pre-existing problem cropped up at the same as the faulty timing belt broke.

All opinons and advice are welcome..

OldmanMondeo

I would be taken legal advise first. She might pay and never see any money again. A solicitor will be best to tell you how to play it out.

Firblog

latest news today lunchtime is that the engine is not idleing right and is throwing up an error on the engine mgt, but will be ready this evening - again!

wonski

I posted something before about being patient, but tbh you were patient enough...
Don't really have an advice how to follow up, but feel sorry for you and your car. Any invoices/job quotes issued so far?

Firblog

Absolutely nothing so far, believe me before any money is paid over for this latest job all invoices & receipts listing all work and parts that have been installed will have to be forthcoming.

Redjeep!

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Never heard of that and if I was in that position the garage would be told where to go. Not OP fault that the garage fecked up. Had the job been done right the first time, no other work would be needed. OP didn't ask for a new improved engine, just the current one working as it was before the belt slipped.

Any idea the legal standpoint in that?

What is the legal stand point on that?

It's fairly common. The reasoning is that the garage only has to fix the problem plus any consequential damage (i.e. anything that happened as a direct result of the failure), they don't have to repair it to anything better than it was an instant before the fail. So for instance they can choose whether to repair the damage or provide an equivalent engine, say a refurb. or maybe one from a car with similar mileage. If they choose to fit an entirely new engine then they could expect the customer to pay for some of the repair because they're getting a car that's in a better state (brand new engine) than it was before. However, they're be an expectation that they discuss the repair options with the customer rather than just slap them with a bill.

I'm not particularly defending this point of view, just saying like !

To get back to the point, I'd strongly advise the OP to get independent advice from a motor engineer and ask the garage to prove that the cam problem was pre existing. If they can't and once the engineer has taken a look, then threaten legal action. They should have all of the old parts on hand for inspection.

wonski

Redjeep! wrote: »

It's fairly common. The reasoning is that the garage only has to fix the problem plus any consequential damage (i.e. anything that happened as a direct result of the failure), they don't have to repair it to anything better than it was an instant before the fail. So for instance they can choose whether to repair the damage or provide an equivalent engine, say a refurb. or maybe one from a car with similar mileage. If they choose to fit an entirely new engine then they could expect the customer to pay for some of the repair because they're getting a car that's in a better state (brand new engine) than it was before. However, they're be an expectation that they discuss the repair options with the customer rather than just slap them with a bill.

I'm not particularly defending this point of view, just saying like !

To get back to the point, I'd strongly advise the OP to get independent advice from a motor engineer and ask the garage to prove that the cam problem was pre existing. If they can't and once the engineer has taken a look, then threaten legal action. They should have all of the old parts on hand for inspection.

There is no brand new engine coming into OP's car. Just saying...

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

latest news is that the engine is not idleing right and is throwing up an error on the engine mgt, but will be ready this evening - again!

Ditto :mad:

mondeo

Unfortunate situation op. Just be persistant and follow everything up. Don't let them away with anything!

Firblog

GF was asked him about progress on Wed, said he hadn't looked at it since Monday as they had been very busy... but that he would try to get at it again the next day... no word since.

She has now bought a little run around as she has lost all faith that it will be sorted anytime soon - not as extreme as it sounds as she has someone lined up to buy it from her when she gets her own back...

Alanstrainor

Moved to consumer issues.

Redjeep!

wonski wrote: »

There is no brand new engine coming into OP's car. Just saying...

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I didn't say there was a brand new engine going into the OP's car. I was just explaining the concept of betterment.

Sponge Bob

Firblog wrote: »

Story
timing belt/chain needed to be replaced; this they did and gave the car a service at same time.

What was the original problem ...as in had it broken or what??

mrjoneill

The consumer is entitled to expect:

1) That the supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service.
2) That the service will be provided with proper care and diligence
3) That materials used will be sound and that goods supplied as part of the service will be of merchantable quality.
It would appear this has not happened. Out of curiosity you should ask to see the supplier to the garage invoice on the actual timing belt supplied. Check was this the correct type for the engine and one has no guarantee that invoice matched what was supplied or for that matter what was installed.
I believe it was not he correct type or if it was it was fitted incorrectly, in not fitted correctly in the timing was slightly out in that the alignment of the crank shaft and the cam shaft was let drift in the replacement. Both should have being locked in position during the replacement. Some operators are in too much of a hurry to so do thus the subsequent problems. Just out of curiosity how long in usage did the belt last and how was the engine functioning during that period especially the timing.
I would say not a brass cent and advise him he is lucky that you have not sued him already for gross incompetence and inconvenience caused.
As for the car not now being ready and a roadworthy state I would be coming off the fence and getting down to real issues and not discussing but laying down the rules and further to this not being satisfactory getting a friend with tow rope to tow it from the garage and beginning a legal process for to compensate you for what appears a gross incompetence. Beginning with a report from an auto engineer and getting redress. The SCC ceiling is only €2k.

Sponge Bob

mrjoneill wrote: »

Out of curiosity you should ask to see the supplier to the garage invoice on the actual timing belt supplied. Check was this the correct type for the engine and one has no guarantee that invoice matched what was supplied or for that matter what was installed.
I believe it was not he correct type or if it was it was fitted incorrectly.

I suspect the same, wrong belt or wrong installation.

Firblog

So I'm going out to the garage with her on Monday, will have to get a list together of what questions to ask, anyone think I should just ask straight out if he's expecting to paid for anyof the work or parts he's put in since?

the_syco

Firblog wrote: »

said he hadn't looked at it since Monday as they had been very busy

He sees your girlfriend as a pushover. Get legal, and see how quickly he changes his tune.

mrjoneill wrote: »

As for the car not now being ready and a roadworthy state I would be coming off the fence and getting down to real issues and not discussing but laying down the rules and further to this not being satisfactory getting a friend with tow rope to tow it from the garage and beginning a legal process for to compensate you for what appears a gross incompetence. Beginning with a report from an auto engineer and getting redress. The SCC ceiling is only €2k.

This sounds like the best idea, as the garage sounds like they've become a bit of a cowboy.

Fey!

Any chance it was just a faulty belt?

Also, has the garage actually tried billing the OPs O/H like the thread title suggests; I couldn't find a definite mention of this in the thread.

7 weeks is taking the mickey IMO, especially as they haven't supplied a courtesy car to help her out.

MidlandsM

whats the upshot op?

Linoge

Firblog wrote: »

said he hadn't looked at it since Monday as they had been very busy... QUOTE]

What a joke. Has he had other cars sitting in there for 8 weeks too? Your car should be the priority and should be the reason why he is pushing back other work. You have been overly reasonable with this guy so far as far as I can see. Is he an approved Honda dealer?

Because you have been too reasonable, when you start to push anything now this guy is going to turn nasty. Save yourself money now by contacting a good solicitor now before dealing with him again. Dont show your cards just yet.

And good luck - its frustrating just reading how you are being treated!

Firblog

Went out yesterday morning, under strict orders not to say anything...

Jeep still not running correctly, he reckons that it is either a prob with the cams not locking/unlocking? or the engine mgt system is not getting correct data from engine, as it is a slightly different model..
he says if it is a physical/cam prob that he can fix he will; if not then he's gonna take out the 'new' engine and get another, this time the exact one that should go into it.

I have to say that having listened to the man, he seems to be genuinely trying to get this sorted, don't think he's some lazy/useless/feckless shyster just trying to rip someone off. His customer interaction & organisation skills are pretty non existant but there is no malice there.

No money has changed hands since the replacement timing belt went in, but from listening I think he will be expecting to get paid for the engine at the very least, not sure about any of the labour put in...

Greyfoot

Never heard of a brand new faulty timing belt before..
Wrong install is 99.9999% the case, belt jumped a teeth, timing fooked, probability of damaged valves/pistons/cams is another 99.9999%.
Yo man is not competent(or more likely doesnt give a flying fook) enough to do an overhaul and correct the serious mistake they made.
Getting a cheap 2nd hand engine is the cheapest option for anyone with half a brain even with limited mechanical knowledge like myself.

It is also worth mentioning that changing vital parts on the replacement engine is also a must on most cases except when it is proven that they been changed recently.

What he wants to do is get it done as cheaply as possible but of course not as fast as he can because if he was working on the car he would be losing other jobs.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me...

Firblog

No word from him in the last week..

MidlandsM

feckin hell..........................

Firblog

Aye.. my sentiments too. She goin out again on Monday...

Firblog

Well, CRV finally on the road again - made some alteration to the cam on the 'new' engine to fool the engine mgt system seemingly.

Paid €650...

the_syco

Firblog wrote: »

to fool the engine mgt system

I'd be worried what lights he stopped coming up on the dashboard...

kippy

This whole thing sounds like a mess. I wouldn't have any confidence in the car and if it were me I would try move it on asap.

Firblog

the_syco wrote: »

I'd be worried what lights he stopped coming up on the dashboard...

When we were out there 2 weeks ago - after he'd put in the 'new' engine - the engine was spluttering and stalling when idleing; since she's gotten it back it hasn't stalled or spluttered at all.

I too think the whole thing a bit of a mess, however on the plus side...

the guy has a great rep, if anything a bit too fussy

Having spoken to him, I have to say he seems as honest as anyone I've ever dealt with

But we'll not really know untill there's a couple of thousand miles up on it..

dharn

sounds like the story might have a happy ending