National Fire and ambulance service???

ambo112

Anyone feel it would make more sense for the ambulance service to come in under the fire service?

There is a fire station close to every ambulance station? Both costing money.

99% of the time the fire station is of a significantly better standard.

Each station is 20 minutes from the next.

Better equipment, regular training, better uniform, better management. Better retirement age, sick leave, pension.

Stand alone service, not under the HSE.

I really can't see any negative and the savings would be phenomenal, imagine the savings of closing every ambulance station in the country and moving to stations where they are already paying heating bills, electricity etc.....

Bang Bang

ambo112 wrote: »

Anyone feel it would make more sense for the ambulance service to come in under the fire service?

There is a fire station close to every ambulance station? Both costing money.

99% of the time the fire station is of a significantly better standard.

Each station is 20 minutes from the next.

Better equipment, regular training, better uniform, better management. Better retirement age, sick leave, pension.

Stand alone service, not under the HSE.

I really can't see any negative and the savings would be phenomenal, imagine the savings of closing every ambulance station in the country and moving to stations where they are already paying heating bills, electricity etc.....

No, I don't feel it makes any sense to combine two separate services.

How would it be a 'stand alone' service'? The Fire Services come under Local Authority which is far from stand alone and a vast number are retained only.

And this topic has been done to death in the past;)

ambo112

I wouldn't consider them two separate services, we are both in the business of emergency aid to the public, the majority of firefighters are medically trained.

I appreciate the fire service is under local authority but I meant that could be a change two, put both services together as a stand alone service.

Sorry, also, didn't realise it was done before.

Bang Bang

ambo112 wrote: »

I wouldn't consider them two separate services, we are both in the business of emergency aid to the public, the majority of firefighters are medically trained.

I appreciate the fire service is under local authority but I meant that could be a change two, put both services together as a stand alone service.

Sorry, also, didn't realise it was done before.

an Garda Siochana also provides emergency aid to the public, as do the Coast Guard, then when it really hits the fan the Defence Forces also provide emergency aid to the public, should the five separate services be combined?

Who would manage this 'Stand alone' service? As in what authority would run this service?

ambo112

Bang Bang wrote: »

ambo112 wrote: »

an Garda Siochana also provides emergency aid to the public, as do the Coast Guard, then when it really hits the fan the Defence Forces also provide emergency aid to the public, should the five separate services be combined?

Who would manage this 'Stand alone' service? As in what authority would run this service?

No, they shouldn't be combined, obviously. I was taking a common sense approach.

It would obviously become its own authority under the minister health or defence maybe more appropriate.

Just an idea, I am only asking for other views, I take it you are in the no category ðŸ˜႒

coolmoose

ambo112 wrote: »

Better equipment, regular training, better uniform, better management. Better retirement age, sick leave, pension.

Most stations on the country are retained. Different equipment, training not as regular for ambulance service because workload is higher (this could still be improved though), uniform - again, for different needs.

No way are all Ps & APs gonna be given FF retirement age, sick leave, pension entitlements etc just because the services integrate!

The idea has some merits to it granted...but never gonna happen!

This is to say nothing of the different cultures, work practices, station habits, workloads etc.

ambo112

coolmoose wrote: »

Most stations on the country are retained. Different equipment, training not as regular for ambulance service because workload is higher (this could still be improved though), uniform - again, for different needs.

No way are all Ps & APs gonna be given FF retirement age, sick leave, pension entitlements etc just because the services integrate!

The idea has some merits to it granted...but never gonna happen!

This is to say nothing of the different cultures, work practices, station habits, workloads etc.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. It is a shame, it would be a great service to be in.

I can't understand how the equipment can be that different, an ambulance stock would be roughly the same, I would assume.

The DFB uniform is designed for ambulance work?

All the other points are a lot on but surely it wouldn't take a huge leap. The ambulance section would be full time but the retained could practice as they currently do? You could have a two tier within the service, i.e. recruitment would be either as a firefighter or paramedic. It would only be the vehicles, stations, pay, admin etc that would be under one single structure.

flazio

I don't see the advantage myself. Medical knowledge and Fire knowledge are two separate traits. Now don't get me wrong there are fire fighters out there with fantastic medical knowledge, but you have paramedics out there who you would trust with your life, but would be completely lost in a pump drill situation. Likewise you probably have fire fighters out there who would organise a mass evacuation to a tee but would be completely butterfingers when it comes to putting in an IV line.
Let people be good at what they are good at and not try to force them to be a jack of all trades.

scholar007

ambo112 wrote: »

Anyone feel it would make more sense for the ambulance service to come in under the fire service?

There is a fire station close to every ambulance station? Both costing money.

99% of the time the fire station is of a significantly better standard.

Each station is 20 minutes from the next.

Better equipment, regular training, better uniform, better management. Better retirement age, sick leave, pension.

Stand alone service, not under the HSE.

I really can't see any negative and the savings would be phenomenal, imagine the savings of closing every ambulance station in the country and moving to stations where they are already paying heating bills, electricity etc.....

All for it if it means less officers in offices and more frontline staff in the field.

Mr Simpson

If it were me doing it, I'd merge stations that are close together, I'd say there's a fire station near to every ambulance station (I wouldn't leave any stand-alone ambulance stations). The fire services could remain retained in stations where that happens already. I don't think its a bad idea, and I can see advantages to training all firefighters to paramedic level.

Is there a national dispatch centre for both? That would be one thing i'd set up, although I do know that removes the advantage of local knowledge.

crackcrack30

other way round....
shouldn't the fireservice come in under the ambulance service since the ambulance service do about twenty times more calls.........


all messing aside:) ,it makes sence to me .. so it probably will never happen.

for deffo the army should be merged with the cops, in a small neutral country..........

ivabiggon

crackcrack30 wrote: »

other way round....
shouldn't the fireservice come in under the ambulance service since the ambulance service do about twenty times more calls.........


all messing aside:) ,it makes sence to me .. so it probably will never happen.

for deffo the army should be merged with the cops, in a small neutral country..........

not in dublin they don't!

crackcrack30

Not yet.

ivabiggon

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Not yet.

they will always

flazio

No one wants to address the possibility that not every fire fighter is cut out to be paramedic? and not every paramedic is cut out to be a fire fighter?
If we start refusing fire fighters recruitment because they can't grasp some serious medical jargon then the fire service would start losing some seriously talented people.

ivabiggon

well if was to speak the truth, i think the paramedic course today is far to intense, there is alot of stuff the people are made to study and examined on that isn't relevant to the actual everyday working of the job.
I did my course 20 yrs ago, it was know as an EMT-B course, the actual job itself hasn't changed much in 20 yrs and i work in dublin, throught cpd education i got a licence to stick a needle into someones muscle and give something to help breathing difficulties, and give a child something to bring they're temp down, which i cud do anyway as i'm a father, and spent many a night inserting paralink suppositories and shoveling nurafen by the spoon load into my kids, and other than that, no actual skill set or equipment has changed since my first day. except for maybe the defibs.

what i'm saying is there is too much concentration on unnecessary theory that is probably lost within a year.
so to agree with you, i'd say the paramedic program looses out not just firefighters but good first aid people to the over prescribe education qualification needed to day.
most of the job is recognition, treat and transport, and not trying to understand the reasons why and fix it at the side of the road, there is people in hospitals with fancy machinery to do that.

scholar007

ivabiggon wrote: »

most of the job is recognition, treat and transport, and not trying to understand the reasons why and fix it at the side of the road, there is people in hospitals with fancy machinery to do that.

Or as they would say years ago ADTD.

Assess, Diagnose, Treat, Dispose (maybe the last one is not very pc now:))

coolmoose

ivabiggon wrote: »

well if was to speak the truth, i think the paramedic course today is far to intense, there is alot of stuff the people are made to study and examined on that isn't relevant to the actual everyday working of the job.
I did my course 20 yrs ago, it was know as an EMT-B course, the actual job itself hasn't changed much in 20 yrs and i work in dublin, throught cpd education i got a licence to stick a needle into someones muscle and give something to help breathing difficulties, and give a child something to bring they're temp down, which i cud do anyway as i'm a father, and spent many a night inserting paralink suppositories and shoveling nurafen by the spoon load into my kids, and other than that, no actual skill set or equipment has changed since my first day. except for maybe the defibs.

what i'm saying is there is too much concentration on unnecessary theory that is probably lost within a year.
so to agree with you, i'd say the paramedic program looses out not just firefighters but good first aid people to the over prescribe education qualification needed to day.
most of the job is recognition, treat and transport, and not trying to understand the reasons why and fix it at the side of the road, there is people in hospitals with fancy machinery to do that.

This is why academically the ambulance service is seen as a "job" and not a "profession". You could argue that most of nursing is washing/dressing patients, giving medications, and filling out care plans, so why do they need to do 4 year degree? (This is not an insult to nurses btw)

It's because a professional role has been identified in these areas (nursing & paramedicine alike), a healthcare provider who can accurately assess, diagnose, plan & treat and discharge a patient competently. And the only way to do this competently is through education.

Now that we have MSc level APs, with PhD to follow, we can begin to research our profession within Ireland, produce info and research that is unique to Ireland and guide the route of the profession over the coming years, to include changes to CPGs, skillsets, education, new roles and responsibilities etc.

However, when even our own consider the education (and I say education, not training) to be vastly unnecessary, then this is what keeps the profession where it is: A support role, non-officer grade, transport service that anyone can be trained do.

Just my opinion.

Tango Alpha 51

Have to agree totally with Coolmoose

ambo112

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

Have to agree totally with Coolmoose

Second that!!

ivabiggon

ok i see your point but, the only real area we make any bit of a difference is in trauma, patch up, stabilise, transport. give O2...

take medical cases, there is very little difference in the treatment that we can offer at what we call paramedic level, with the exception of, MI, diabetes, asthma, any other medical illness are all treated the same, make comfortable, take a hx and transport, and occasionally give O2, and sure even thats gone out of fashion now, so, and in the case of child birth unless the birth is a sliding success, sure what else can you do but sit back, sweat like a good thing until you reach the maternity hospital, and give O2???

fundamentally the skills are the same as what i studied back in the very early 90's. and my course wasn't as detailed as today.
now if we were graded like every other paramedic is all over the world, emt, paramedic, a full paramedic coarse, IV access with acls etc, maybe i would agree to the amount of study involved.

but i can see in years to come that the adv. paramedic status will be fazed out or peeled back only to met with our paramedic status been upskilled, it a good way to do it on the cheap, on a gradual scale, like it is done now.

sure look i've gone completely off the initial subject here, that is a national fire and ambulance service, ie national emergency service, i think its the way to go, i've expressed ths before on another tread, take it out of the hands of local authorities, health boards, give us all one status, one uniform, one pension, one pay scale, and one buying power for equipment etc, to make it more economical, less top brass and more foot soldiers. Oh and of coarse more union power, and within the national emergency service have specialized area to supplement your normal everyday function, as in the dfb, such as MER, SRT & boat rescue, height rise, and whats really lacking today, urban SAR function.