Pacing - a discussion

tunney

"Emotionally insecure athletes are afraid making a pacing mistake by starting too slowly. So they start too fast. A bigger mistake."

Pacing - how do you pace yours and do you think that the above quote is fair and accurate?

couerdelion

tunney wrote: »

"Emotionally insecure athletes are afraid making a pacing mistake by starting too slowly. So they start too fast. A bigger mistake."

Pacing - how do you pace yours and do you think that the above quote is fair and accurate?

I think in generqal that's pretty fair and accurate but I'm not sure it has anything to do with emotional insecurity. Perhaps emotional intelligence in so far as you have an idea of how fast you can do the distance at but feel great so push it on only to suffer for it later on. Scared of leaving fuel in the tank that you could have burnt up on the course only to find out you finish running on empty.

pgibbo

Judging by the amount of positive splits you see in races, especially road races, I think it's a fair comment.

Personally I tend to try and start conservatively and finisher strong. Most of my road races have been equal or negative splits. Can't say the same for triathlon though. I'm not sure why but I don't think I pace multisport aswell as standalone.

The more you race though the better you can judge your pacing. Finding the balance between races and training is key IMO. Like everything it's different for everyone.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

"Emotionally insecure athletes are afraid making a pacing mistake by starting too slowly. So they start too fast. A bigger mistake."

Pacing - how do you pace yours and do you think that the above quote is fair and accurate?

so you are talking about males ;-0

peter kern

ps and I would say emotionally insecure athletes looking for gadgets ....
and I am really not trying to take the piss here.

ps this is of course only half the truth!

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

"Emotionally insecure athletes are afraid making a pacing mistake by starting too slowly. So they start too fast. A bigger mistake."

Pacing - how do you pace yours and do you think that the above quote is fair and accurate?

I would agree with the quote if it starts: "Inexperienced athletes..." I don't understand what emotional security has to do with racing, unless its peer pressure and smack talk that has driven someone to starting too hard - this comes down to inexperience in my book. Race your own race; that comes with experience.

@Peter - I am amazed by the amount of stress caused to athletes fussing over getting the splits sorted on the watch in a race (usually post race) and also people arguing that a course is long short etc "because my Garmin says so". Races are measured and chip timed so this additional stress is not needed.

Train with gadgets, race (unless long course) by feel.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

I would agree with the quote if it starts: "Inexperienced athletes..." I don't understand what emotional security has to do with racing, unless its peer pressure and smack talk that has driven someone to starting too hard - this comes down to inexperience in my book. Race your own race; that comes with experience.

@Peter - I am amazed by the amount of stress caused to athletes fussing over getting the splits sorted on the watch in a race (usually post race) and also people arguing that a course is long short etc "because my Garmin says so". Races are measured and chip timed so this additional stress is not needed.

Train with gadgets, race (unless long course) by feel.

Not my quote - Joe Friel's

sconhome

I still don't agree with it. I don't see 'emotional security' applying in the context of the statement.

I'll let Joe know my point of view.;)

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

I still don't agree with it. I don't see 'emotional security' applying in the context of the statement.

I'll let Joe know my point of view.;)

I was just pointing out that the quote was not mine and i do not necessarily agree with all of the statement.

duffyshuffle

It can be emotions that overtake plans/brain.

You come out of T2 beside someone you know you can out run by 4-5 mins for a 1/2, he starts slightly harder than you and your planned pace. Brain says stick with planned pace as thats what you've planned based on training/practice/coach's advice. If you don't let them run on to catch them later then you've let your insecurities of not being as fast/beating them get the better of you.

If you end up running faster having started faster than planned pace is another issue re: how you planned

peter kern

I think the main culprit for poor pacing is testosterone
and I would base this on the fact that I hardly ever see a pacing problem with females.

But Mr friel has a point I remember, I was kind of rational about equipment but the week before an Ironman that was the week when I thought I need this and that . And have bought stuff on race week I would not have parted money with under normal circumstances......
and thats defo emotional insecurity.

I once bought an profile aero bar ( the bar on the bike was round tubed.......) the week before IM arizona....for a bike that I had borrowed for the race as I had been traveling on my Mountainbike for 6 month . When I look backwards I always go what an e..t I was, if I had sleept those hours I wasted thinking about it , I would have raced better ......
Now you could argue it made half sense as I finished 12th and was 2 places from the Money ( an I think I was 7th off the bike ) but it was still totally silly and a waste of energy as the whole story had totally drained me emotionally and I lost concentration too early in the race. and I learned my lesson from that.

peter kern

watch the pro race in Hawaii this year
and then you will see how many pros blow up ;-)
you could argue they race to win but thats not the whole story.

amphkingwest wrote: »

I would agree with the quote if it starts: "Inexperienced athletes..." I don't understand what emotional security has to do with racing, unless its peer pressure and smack talk that has driven someone to starting too hard - this comes down to inexperience in my book. Race your own race; that comes with experience.

@Peter - I am amazed by the amount of stress caused to athletes fussing over getting the splits sorted on the watch in a race (usually post race) and also people arguing that a course is long short etc "because my Garmin says so". Races are measured and chip timed so this additional stress is not needed.

Train with gadgets, race (unless long course) by feel.

miller82

as much as people like to slag gadgets and garmins, its surely the best way of sticking to your pace. just keep clocking the average speed your capable of i.e what you managed in training. if you have a bit more in the legs over the last 2km then kick on

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

This is where gadgets such as a PM come into their own for pacing in particular on an IM where you can easily overcook the bike and leave your legs mashed for the run. Dial in the wattage you have trained at but keep a check on RPE and away you go.
As someone once told me leave your ego in T1 and start of slightly easier for the first 90k of an IM bike.
Not sure i agree with Friels statement.

peter kern

miller82 wrote: »

as much as people like to slag gadgets and garmins, its surely the best way of sticking to your pace. just keep clocking the average speed your capable of i.e what you managed in training. if you have a bit more in the legs over the last 2km then kick on

well most male pros in hawaii have powermeter most female pros dont have power meter , you find out who paces better .....

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

well most male pros in hawaii have powermeter most female pros dont have power meter , you find out who paces better .....

Very different - pros and amateurs.

Pros race for money. Some intend to blow up as being the fastest biker is how they get their money(Lieto).

Yes ego plays a part in Pro racing but its nowhere near as clear cut as amateurs!

(I'm holding my tongue on friel's comment for a bit)

peter kern

ok she we use dave tunney power meter and joyce wolfe non power meter .
certainly from what I have studied females with out power meter pace better than Amateur guys with powermeter ( on the whole )

ok there is many reasons for this but the argument that power meter make you a better pacer with out controlling your mind is in in my mind not correct.

and all the females tell me if they pass a guy the guy will race them regardless of powermeter or not .

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

ok she we use dave tunney power meter and joyce wolfe non power meter .
certainly from what I have studied females with out power meter pace better than Amateur guys with powermeter ( on the whole )

ok there is many reasons for this but the argument that power meter make you a better pacer with out controlling your mind is in in my mind not correct.

and all the females tell me if they pass a guy the guy will race them regardless of powermeter or not .

You have previously used me as an example to at least one of your athletes as an example as how to pace the bike. In fact you have complimented me on it before........

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

ok she we use dave tunney power meter and joyce wolfe non power meter .
certainly from what I have studied females with out power meter pace better than Amateur guys with powermeter ( on the whole )

ok there is many reasons for this but the argument that power meter make you a better pacer with out controlling your mind is in in my mind not correct.

and all the females tell me if they pass a guy the guy will race them regardless of powermeter or not .

Changing your pace because a member of the fairer sex passed you is ridiculous. Here Friel's comment on emotional insecurity is definitely valid.

The only valid reason for speeding up to stay behind not with a woman that passes you is to check out her ass - and to be honest most top female triathletes (if they can run) have horribly bony arses.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

peter kern wrote: »

but the argument that power meter make you a better pacer with out controlling your mind is in in my mind not correct.

It's just another tool that can be used on race day to assist with pacing....whilst still using your mind. It will work for some and not for others if they choose to ignore it and push on.

BennyMul

Is pacing something to be done in training, if you can’t do it there then very little chance of getting it right on the day.
Then once racing it becomes a matter of believing in your self, and leave the testosterone at the start.

Of course the shorter the race the less pacing has an influence and it becomes the ability to suffer?

The problem with the mind is that it’s a variable, and its perception of a given effort is dependent on a number of factors, how many times have you felt “crap” then the sun comes out and things look brighter and you feel better,

shotgunmcos

Nothing to to with emotionally insecure IMO

Good pacing is even to neg splits most of the time but then depends on the race. Some might bolt out of T2 to put distance on an opponent.. an out of sight out of mind tactic. Break them early.

A pace is a plan. It takes discipline, experience and a type B personality to stick to a plan ... The first 2 you can develop with work, the 3rd requires emotional self awareness or someone to hold them accountable

Whatever the pace from what I've read is that a steady pace is more energy efficient. I think the best place to study pace is the middle distance track events. So many tactics trying to dictate the pace.. its the most fascinating part of it for me.

Its not often you see those that bolt off ahead come home with the goods.. its a gamble.. stupidity if it fails, courageous if it works...

Yes tools are useful to give you data feedback to keep you in check. However tools don't change your personality when it comes to stressful situations, like a race...

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

You have previously used me as an example to at least one of your athletes as an example as how to pace the bike. In fact you have complimented me on it before........

dont take me so personal !
I just tried to make an funny example to relpy to your amateur vs pro post. and I said there was many more aspects than pacing involved . and while you are a good pacer with a power meter joyce is a top class pacer without one.
you changed you power output during the race in austria so something must have gone wrong with the powermeter pacing ...
and you know I am not really serious.
and I totally agree that a power meter CAN help pacing but its not the only way ......

the only thing I am really serious about is that -generally -females pace better than guys . ( now if you where to argue that females run the danger to start to slow you have a case)

Thats why I say testosterone is most likely the biggest factor for poor pacing. or the bigger ego of males.

El Director

tunney wrote: »

"Emotionally insecure athletes are afraid making a pacing mistake by starting too slowly. So they start too fast. A bigger mistake."

Pacing - how do you pace yours and do you think that the above quote is fair and accurate?

Re the quote: it's a fair point IMO. It takes discipline, experience and confidence to pace a race right.

Discipline - have a plan and stick to it. If Aoife Lynch (for eg) goes by you you shouldn't be reacting as you should already be executing YOUR plan, only upping the pace if that was the plan at that particular point of the race.

Experience - the more you race the better you are at judging the pace you can hold. LTHR can help this but after numerous races you know what it feels like.

Confidence - in yourself as a man/woman, your coach and your plan. Confident and secure that at the end of the day there is only one question you need to answer: Did I do my best? And only one person to answer to. Yourself.

So IMO the less disciplined, experience and confident you are the greater the chance you will let your emotion manager sit in the big chair in mIssion control

How do you do yours? Well whatever coach says To me perfect pace is starting at a slightly faster pace than you imagine will be your ave pace for the total race. Then easing off to what you imagine will be that ave pace and in the final part of the race building to a strong finish, getting to LTHR and pushing above it. Trying to time this is key, building too quick and acid attack....too conservative and you haven't left it all on the course.

I'm sure there is a graph for perfect pacing. A universal one, one that fits for most sports, kinda like what I've described. Pacing on the vertical axis, time on the horizontal......starting high on the left gradually coming down a but, levelling off before rising again as time moves on-to the right. It'd look like the opposite of the normal distribution, but still be normal if you catch my dift

Oryx

From here is an interesting snippet on IM marathon pacing.

Yet another example came to me when working with my coach, Neal Henderson, on pacing the marathon in an Ironman. He instructed me to really hold back on the first 10km of the marathon. “run as slow as you have to in order to feel relaxed and calm,” he told me. Then at 10km very slowly raise the pace and hold it. If possible very slowly raise it again at 20km. I used his advice and broke my Ironman marathon record by almost 40minutes.

I had read similar stuff in one of the tri magazines, that a good strategy was to really ease back for the first six miles, then pick up your pace.

I know it can be a tendency to go off too hard when inexperienced, but I get where he is coming from on the emotional insecurity too. Most people dont run a race alone, in a void. In your head youre also thinking about who you are competing against, what you have to do to stay ahead (or catch up), how many are passing you, and what time you want to achieve. Controlling those mental demons and sticking to a pace you know is right, can be difficult.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

dont take me so personal !
I just tried to make an funny example to relpy to your amateur vs pro post. and I said there was many more aspects than pacing involved . and while you are a good pacer with a power meter joyce is a top class pacer without one.
you changed you power output during the race in austria so something must have gone wrong with the powermeter pacing ...
and you know I am not really serious.
and I totally agree that a power meter CAN help pacing but its not the only way ......

Thats why I say testosterone is most likely the biggest factor for poor pacing. or the bigger ego of males.

Yip I changed strategy. I knew that I was rolling faster than expected at intended race wattage. I only wanted to roll at 36kph. I figured back off 20 watts and save the effort for the run. Complete opposite to the "testosterone" and "bigger ego" that you are referring to.

What you are overlooking is that time spent riding with a power meter translates to riding without a power meter. Much like HR.

I am assuming that most people who use a HRM alot can tell their HR while they are running without the HRM - you learn to relate the sensations from your body to what your BPM is. I know I can tell (when well and trained) what HR I am running at. Likewise power meters - learn to ride at a consistent output WITH the power meter and you still do it without it.

I do accept the fact that women are, in general, less likely to succumb to their ego and bust their plan to stay with someone.