Fixed penalty

ANXIOUS

Hi all, I get the train in the mornings from a station that doesn't have a ticket machine or a ticket booth. I then pay when I get to my destination. So today j was running late and had the iPod in so I just did my normal thing.

So I get to my destination this morning and the chap said that they were handing out slips to people who got on. I think I seen someone handing out stuff, but I thought it was something about the referendum.

So I got the fixed fine, after arguing with him because he couldn't find my address.

Basically I am fairly sure it's an open and shut case that I am not liable for the fine. All along they are happy to breach their own rules by not having a ticket machine or a booth, secondly even if I did see someone handing out leaflets I am under no obligation to take one. Having scanned through the bye laws I can't see anything that allows them to do this.

So just looking for advice on how to appeal the fine in a clear manner without ranting.

Thanks

Losty Dublin

What station did you board the train at?

ANXIOUS

Broom bridge

Losty Dublin

Contact the Revenue Protection Unit ASAP quoting the date, reference number and the details of your journey; their details will be on the back of your penalty notice and take it from there. If you have proof that you make the same journey often then it should help your case but you should be grand.

ANXIOUS

Yeah I have the appeals form but in going to wait so it doesn't turn into a rant. What gets me is if they have someone handing out leaflets why don't they have him selling tickets. I can't really see them going to court and having to explain to the judge why they allow 100's of people to break their bye laws daily.

goingnowhere

Broombridge is frequently claimed by many as their starting station when they get caught with no ticket

To counter act this, a member of staff is from time to time positioned at the top of the ramp (out of sight to passengers on the train) to issue passengers with temporary tickets. Given the security issues at Broombridge cash is not normally taken, you hand the ticket in and pay on train or destination as is permitted in the bye laws. The temporary ticket is taken as an authority to travel which can be exchanged for a ticket.

So when the inspector finds someone without a ticket or a temporary ticket who claims to have boarded at Broombridge, they quite reasonably believe you are pulling a fast one.

So if you did board in Broombridge you have a problem as there will be a good collection of these temporary tickets for that morning which Irish Rail will have to prove this process was in use.

ANXIOUS

Yes I can see where they are coming from. However is there any bye law that you know of to cover this? I am not doubting this process was in place, however I didn't see or take a leaflet.

I think I have grounds for appeal based on there website stating the correct thing to do is pay at your destination.

Ste1605

A couple of years back the same thing happened to me. I had only moved in to the area and decided to get the train to work. The first day I done like you were saying and went up to the booth in Connolly Station and said that I got on at BB, he asked me have I registered my address for some tpye of ID/Card to state I would be using BB station or have I got a weekly/monthly pass. I had neither either and he duely gave me the standard fine there on the spot. I peaded my case with him to no avail. I sent a couple of emails and had a phone call with the appeals but I still ended up paying the fine.

Mycroft H

Is this voucher that is handed out on the platform a ticket?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

"ticket" means any ticket or document issued for the conveyance of any passenger, animal or articles on the railway, or any platform ticket, or car or bicycle parking ticket, and includes in particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing any season ticket, commuter ticket, rail rambler ticket, free pass, privilege ticket, or any warrant, identity card, voucher or other similar authority in exchange for or on production of which any ticket for the conveyance of any passenger may be issued;

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

ANXIOUS

BX 19 wrote: »

Is this voucher that is handed out on the platform a ticket?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

Thank you for finding the link, no this is definetaly not a ticket because you still have to pay at the other end.

ANXIOUS

Ste1605 wrote: »

A couple of years back the same thing happened to me. I had only moved in to the area and decided to get the train to work. The first day I done like you were saying and went up to the booth in Connolly Station and said that I got on at BB, he asked me have I registered my address for some tpye of ID/Card to state I would be using BB station or have I got a weekly/monthly pass. I had neither either and he duely gave me the standard fine there on the spot. I peaded my case with him to no avail. I sent a couple of emails and had a phone call with the appeals but I still ended up paying the fine.

I have never heard of that and I have been traveling this line for Circe 18 months. First time I've ever had a problem.

goingnowhere

"ticket" means any ticket or document issued for the conveyance of any passenger, animal or articles on the railway, or any platform ticket, or car or bicycle parking ticket, and includes in particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing any season ticket, commuter ticket, rail rambler ticket, free pass, privilege ticket, or any warrant, identity card, voucher or other similar authority in exchange for or on production of which any ticket for the conveyance of any passenger may be issued;

At no point does it state money must be exchanged

So no ticket in whatever form when you could obtain the 'ticket' leads to a fine

The fine is not under SI 109 1984, its Rail Safety Act 2005

Mycroft H

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Thank you for finding the link, no this is definetaly not a ticket because you still have to pay at the other end.

I would imagine your in the clear. I would send a registered letter to the:

Revenue Protection Unit
Intercity & Commuter Business
Room B5 ,Connolly Station
Amiens Street, Dublin 1

Stating that there was no authorised official at the station for you to purchase a ticket from nor a ticket vending machine. You were obliged to purchase a ticket at the earliest possible opportunity at your destination, which you did.

I would also quote the relevant subsection from the Coras Iompair Éireann Bye-Laws (Confirmation) Order, 1984 - S/I No. 109/1984.

I would request that the fine be rescinded as you broke no rules.

ANXIOUS

goingnowhere wrote: »

At no point does it state money must be exchanged

So no ticket in whatever form when you could obtain the 'ticket' leads to a fine

The fine is not under SI 109 1984, its Rail Safety Act 2005

Good point, however i think the passenger still having to pay for a 'ticket' at arrival would make this leaflet not a ticket.

Losty Dublin

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Good point, however i think the passenger still having to pay for a 'ticket' at arrival would make this leaflet not a ticket.

It sounds like it is just a permission slip to board as you still are obliged to get your ticket. There is allowance in the law for the company to direct you to board without a ticket with view to purchase later on; this is doing just that.

As it happens, you didn't get one so it's not relevant here

Vic_08

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Thank you for finding the link, no this is definetaly not a ticket because you still have to pay at the other end.

"ticket" means any ticket or document issued for the conveyance of any passenger, animal or articles on the railway, or any platform ticket, or car or bicycle parking ticket, and includes in particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing any season ticket, commuter ticket, rail rambler ticket, free pass, privilege ticket, or any warrant, identity card, voucher or other similar authority in exchange for or on production of which any ticket for the conveyance of any passenger may be issued;


That is where you are contravening the rules. I expect they will claim that you are not in fact boarding at Broombridge where these vouchers were issued to all passengers on that day. Unless you can prove you did board there I don't see why they would drop the case.

A stack of Connolly issued tickets from previous dates issued on foot of you claiming to have boarded at Broombridge would not be accepted as proof. The amount of people doing just this is the exact reason why on occasion genuine Broombridge passengers are issued with vouchers.


FYI this is not a practice exclusive to IE. A number of UK rail operators also use the voucher system to verify the embarkation station of passengers claiming to originate at similar short distance unmanned or open stations.

ANXIOUS

Well I think I will take it all the way to court, even if I lose. I would like them to have to explain to the judge why they don't have a ticket machine. I nearly couldn't got off this evening in broombridge due to a hail of rocks greeting the train.

AlekSmart

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Well I think I will take it all the way to court, even if I lose. I would like them to have to explain to the judge why they don't have a ticket machine. I nearly couldn't got off this evening in broombridge due to a hail of rocks greeting the train.

Erm,am I missing something here Anxious,or have you just answered hizzonors question all in one fell swoop ?......and i'll wager it was broad daylight in Bwoombridge too....:mad:

foggy_lad

goingnowhere wrote: »

Broombridge is frequently claimed by many as their starting station when they get caught with no ticket

To counter act this, a member of staff is from time to time positioned at the top of the ramp (out of sight to passengers on the train) to issue passengers with temporary tickets. Given the security issues at Broombridge cash is not normally taken, you hand the ticket in and pay on train or destination as is permitted in the bye laws. The temporary ticket is taken as an authority to travel which can be exchanged for a ticket.

So when the inspector finds someone without a ticket or a temporary ticket who claims to have boarded at Broombridge, they quite reasonably believe you are pulling a fast one.

So if you did board in Broombridge you have a problem as there will be a good collection of these temporary tickets for that morning which Irish Rail will have to prove this process was in use.

Is every single passenger stopped by this person and given a slip or is it just those who look like they won't have a weekly monthly or yearly ticket? Are there signs up stating that a voucher must be obtained from this person before boarding the train?

Vic_08 wrote: »

That is where you are contravening the rules. I expect they will claim that you are not in fact boarding at Broombridge where these vouchers were issued to all passengers on that day. Unless you can prove you did board there I don't see why they would drop the case.

A stack of Connolly issued tickets from previous dates issued on foot of you claiming to have boarded at Broombridge would not be accepted as proof. The amount of people doing just this is the exact reason why on occasion genuine Broombridge passengers are issued with vouchers.


FYI this is not a practice exclusive to IE. A number of UK rail operators also use the voucher system to verify the embarkation station of passengers claiming to originate at similar short distance unmanned or open stations.

Can IE prove they issued these vouchers to every single passenger? Again were there signs up stating that vouchers were to be got from this employee before travel? Why would they issue them to seasonal ticket holders?

Vic_08

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Well I think I will take it all the way to court, even if I lose. I would like them to have to explain to the judge why they don't have a ticket machine. I nearly couldn't got off this evening in broombridge due to a hail of rocks greeting the train.

You have answered your own question haven't you, how long do you think a ticket machine would last at a place where the arrival of a train is greeted by scumbags throwing masonry?

There is no legal requirement for IE to provide ticketing facilities at all locations at all times. In the event of facilities not being provided at a boarding station there are set procedures as stated on this thread previously that allow passengers to board and pay at the next available opportunity.

It is not within the law to use this as an opportunity to avoid paying and despite what many think it is up to the passenger to pay where a reasonable method is provided (ticket office at destination for example) not just on occasion of being specifically challenged for payment.

It is also not within the law to use the lack of ticketing facilities at the origin station to attempt under-payment by falsely claiming a journey originated at a station that would have a lower fare than the station actually used.

It is this second offence you are being accused of based on you not having the voucher IE had distributed to passengers boarding at Broombridge on that day.

Losty Dublin

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Well I think I will take it all the way to court, even if I lose. I would like them to have to explain to the judge why they don't have a ticket machine. I nearly couldn't got off this evening in broombridge due to a hail of rocks greeting the train.

A day in court is just that, a day off work spent in a court for your case. Get off and you've used up a day's leave. Found guilty and it's a fine plus costs. If you are going to get off a prosecution, you will need good legal advice which is something that you won't get here, costing you yet more money .

Think with the pocket, man, and pay up the cheap way.

markpb

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A day in court is just that, a day off work spent in a court for your case. Get off and you've used up a day's leave. Found guilty and it's a fine plus costs. If you are going to get off a prosecution, you will need good legal advice which is something that you won't get here, costing you yet more money .

Think with the pocket, man, and pay up the cheap way.

Would you suggest that even if you believed he was innocent?

ANXIOUS

AlekSmart wrote: »

Erm,am I missing something here Anxious,or have you just answered hizzonors question all in one fell swoop ?......and i'll wager it was broad daylight in Bwoombridge too....:mad:

I don't follow the hizzonor part. But the rock incident was tonight at 530. That makes two days in a row.

ANXIOUS

Sorry I think people may be getting the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't approached looking for my ticket, I went up to where I always buy my ticket half way down the platform in Pearce.

If I had of wanted to skip paying the fare I could have just walked out.

Vic_08

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Sorry I think people may be getting the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't approached looking for my ticket, I went up to where I always buy my ticket half way down the platform in Pearce.

If I had of wanted to skip paying the fare I could have just walked out.

No, wrong end of the stick has not been got.

A person claiming that they have boarded at Broombridge when in fact thay boarded at a station further away which whould cost more is fare evasion and very much illegal.

Not that I am claiming that is what you have done but...


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75941113&postcount=2

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I get the train in from ashtown in the mornings, takes twenty mins to pearce.

ANXIOUS

Vic_08 wrote: »

No, wrong end of the stick has not been got.

A person claiming that they have boarded at Broombridge when in fact thay boarded at a station further away which whould cost more is fare evasion and very much illegal.

Not that I am claiming that is what you have done but...


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75941113&postcount=2

You are very selective, how come you didn't quote the thread. Where I moved to westmeath?

monument

Vic_08 wrote: »

No, wrong end of the stick has not been got.

A person claiming that they have boarded at Broombridge when in fact thay boarded at a station further away which whould cost more is fare evasion and very much illegal.

Not that I am claiming that is what you have done but...


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75941113&postcount=2

In 2011 if I was getting the no 4 bus into town or south Dublin I would have been paying from Harts Corner.

Today if I was getting the same bus I'd be getting it from Broadstone.

I've moved since. Maybe the OP has too?

AlekSmart

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I don't follow the hizzonor part. But the rock incident was tonight at 530. That makes two days in a row.

I can't really see them going to court and having to explain to the judge why they allow 100's of people to break their bye laws daily.

Apologies....I'm theorising that the Judge may decide to ask questions of the IE representative as to why the "Station" in question does not have a TIM in place.....;)

For what it's worth,I believe the Broombridge situation just as with Luas Red Line represents a direct challenge by the savages to the rest of US....Not IE,Not Veolia...but every ordinary decent Joe and Joan who buys a ticket and merely wants to go about their business.

For far too long now these ordinary folk have lain down under the jackboot of aggressive savages who now believe they control the world WE all inhabit.....Time to educate them methinks,rather than attempting to offload the blame onto entities like IE attempting to pretend that civilization reaches these places !!!

Losty Dublin

markpb wrote: »

Would you suggest that even if you believed he was innocent?

I hadn't doubted his innocence; I even suggested that he contact them to sort this out. Mind you, it was prior to us learning from Vlc_08's posts as to have the know if you boarded at Broombridge or not and how OP can't actually prove as readily that he did board there.

Now that being said; should an appeal fail and given the choice between a day in court and possible leave off work and the potential fine and costs from a court case and possible legal fees to defend your case or a fixed penalty cost for something which now appears to be more open and shut than we first though, what would you suggest he do?

ANXIOUS

Just to update the thread, I won my appeal.

Mycroft H

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Just to update the thread, I won my appeal.

I would struggle to believe that you could have lost. Anyways well done. Was this in court by the way ?

ANXIOUS

BX 19 wrote: »

I would struggle to believe that you could have lost. Anyways well done. Was this in court by the way ?

No it was all fixed up outside, just sent them in my appeal.