Could the road running boom kill off club athletics?

emerald007

Some interesting points raised by lindie and the ballycotton organiser

http://lindienaughton.blogspot.com/2012/05/article-what-make-good-road-race.html

To Mods : Can we add a poll to this thread with the four questions asked in the article?

RayCun

The problem with all four questions is that, while we might all agree that there should be none of these races that take a lot of money out of athletics, how do you stop them? If the AAI refused to licence a private race, it would go ahead without a licence and most people wouldn't know or care. all you can really do is promote the good races.

Maybe there could be more coordination between Dublin clubs (and groups like IMRA and BHAA) to produce a joint calendar of events, and promote it together? (and the same in other regions?)

shels4ever

RayCun wrote: »

The problem with all four questions is that, while we might all agree that there should be none of these races that take a lot of money out of athletics, how do you stop them? If the AAI refused to licence a private race, it would go ahead without a licence and most people wouldn't know or care. all you can really do is promote the good races.

Maybe there could be more coordination between Dublin clubs (and groups like IMRA and BHAA) to produce a joint calendar of events, and promote it together? (and the same in other regions?)

I know there is some in formal communication between the groups in this area some BHAA races have been moved and I know some club races(smaller races) have been moved to stop clashes.
But with the number of races coming in the licence fee's are also paid. Not sure what the break down of this was over the last few years, but i'd expect that there is a nice chunk of cash comming into the coffers.

nerraw1111

I think the questions in the blog are ones that you should ask yourself when choosing a race and what matters to you. Rather than hard and fast rules.

For me, it’s not as simple as commercial (boo) vs club (yaaayy.) Some commercial races are great, most clubs are great if not a bit dull.

dna_leri

I read the blog and thought it was building up well to a good assessment of the state of running in the country. I especially like the bit below - a lot of that around here.

One commercial race organiser has described the evolution of the typical recreational road runner well.
In their first year, armed with head phones and water bottle, they start “jogging” following an online training programme. They then enter an expensive and much-hyped commercial race where they are confidant they won’t finish last.
In year 2, they sign up for the Dublin Marathon-organised Race Series, and may even attempt the marathon.
In year 3, our novice runner finally has the confidence to join a local running group or athletics club and will maybe sign up with the BHAA or Irish Mountain Running Association where headphones are banned and they pay no more than €10 a race.

I was disappointed that she failed to come to any conclusions and just left it with a list of (mainly rhetorical) questions that don't go anywhere to answering the big one posed in the title?

Timmaay

Very interesting view from Lindie there! Personally, I would say that its a missed boat by Athletics Ireland!! Their website is a complete and utter joke! Ok, you are a beginner runner, you have never done a race before etc, and go to google and type in "fun run", running or anything like that. One of the 1st links that comes up is runireland.com. You go into their website, there is a enter races, and events calendar menus, you have all the info on almost all the races in Ireland, you can enter online very easy there or just get details of the race.
One of the exceptions is if you type "athletics" into google. Athleticsireland.ie is the 1st link up! You click on the link, a mess of a homepage pops up with two different menus in it, eventually you find "fixtures" link up the top right, you click on fixtures and you get a stupidly long page, with all of the races, no links in the page at all, very little information on any of the races!

If Athletics Ireland had any cop on at all, they would be helping all their clubs promote all these fantastic low cost, well organized club races, which bring in a great source of income to the clubs that in turn goes directly back into grassroute athletics. They should hire a web developer to fix their website, and do the following:

-Put in a proper section for any beginner runners (or even just create a new website for beginner runners)

-have proper links and a proper club map (the clubs map is an utter disgrace also, I am on the committee for two of my local clubs, I have sent in several emails to athletics ireland asking them to update the information about these clubs on their page and nothing has changed!!)

-Seperate the fixtures/event calendar, if they look at the way the imra/bhaa or runireland website work, its not rocketscience at all to have a proper working calendar with easy to filter events.

Ok, mega long rant here ha, I hope some of yous are still with me! A final point on this topic, from my (brief) study of economics many years ago, market intervention is not always a good idea, and often it just a botch fix, and does not address the route of the problem. That is why I voted none of the above in the poll. How can we expect to try force commercial races to cap entry fees, or give out more prizemoney?? We have the perfect recipe already with many of the club races, low entries, great course, properly organized and decent prizemoney, they just need to be promoted properly!

And as an important afterthought, for any of beginner runners who does a local club race, the structure needs to be in place to encourage them to join up and start training with their local club, in particular any young promising looking athletes who could well lead on to be international athletes etc!

bigslice

Timmaay raises some excellent points and I'd largely agree.

I have organised a race last year - for local GAA club and local charities. We talked to as many runners as possible before hand and hosted a race that was well organised and good value for money. After it, we looked for feedback and one was that we didn't offer prize money, so if we do that again we will do so.

Since then, I've ran in a range of races - commercial and club events. Like everything, they all differ and no one race is the same with many variables - price, accuracy of course, timing method, quality of field, course itself, post event, price etc etc.

I honestly couldn't say which are better. As i do more races, I have looked at price and quality of course. The novelty of t-shirts, medals, goody bag etc is soon replaced by value for money, type of course etc.

I think the commercial races have a place as an introduction to running in races and people will then move onto the club events. I still haven't joined a club and doubt i will at my stage. I enjoy the events for what they are - running against others but only person I am really competing with is myself.

I would compare it to soccer. Thousands and thousands play soccer on a weekly basis. However, only a small % do so on an organised or structured FAI league. The vast majority play in 5-a-side games with friends or commercial 5-a-side leagues. It will never changes.The clubs will continue, they may benefit from attracting players into their setup from it but those that want structured training and games will find their way to them. The main way to do it, is with young people. Same with athletics clubs.

Clubs can moan now and see these commercial events as threats or as an opportunity to raise funds from them. Get on top of their events, promote them well and the runners will come to them. They have to be willing to grasp the bull on this and turn the boom in running to their advantage.

pconn062

I have to say that I am not completely against big commercial races, if they get people out running to start with as pointed out by Timaay then that is a good thing. One thing I am starting to get uneasy with is this new attitude of "OK we quickly need easy funding for this 'cause', 'project', 'school' whatever, lets organise a race". These races are popping up all over that place, organised by people with zero experience of organising a race, measuring courses and think if they give a cheap medal at the end, you are getting value for money.
I saw an ad for one of these races recently where the first three prizes were a two night stay in a hotel, and then a couple of dinner vouchers in some restaurant. This annoys me, if you are going to organise a race, even if it is for charity, be prepared to offer the top runners decent money prizes to show up and win. These races aren't cheap either, 20-30 euro is normal for a 10k. Another example is a race that popped up in my local village last year is on again this year and the whole thing is pushed as a "family fun day out" with lots of entertainment and bands, oh and there's a race on as well, it's a second thought. I just think there is too much of this "we need money, sure a race is easy money, lets organise one of them", but maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old (24) age!

RayCun

Timmaay wrote: »

Personally, I would say that its a missed boat by Athletics Ireland!! Their website is a complete and utter joke! Ok, you are a beginner runner, you have never done a race before etc, and go to google and type in "fun run", running or anything like that.

The answer is always the same though.
Are any of these fun runners going to represent Ireland at the Olympics?
No? Then the AAI will concentrate its resources on the athletes who might.

I can see their point.

Krusty_Clown

dna_leri wrote: »

I read the blog and thought it was building up well to a good assessment of the state of running in the country. I especially like the bit below - a lot of that around here.

That exactly describes my evolution. Obviously it's far more important to get athletes into the club environment at a school age, when there is still an opportunity to identify those athletes with potential to break out at their discipline, but for those who escaped athletics at an early age, I don't think the evolution is necessarily a bad thing. At the end of the day it gets more runners into the club environment. Even the large commercial races serve a purpose, as they do get runners to participate, who might not otherwise ever run in a race environment.

I do entirely agree with Timmay's post. There are superb initiatives (like fit4life) and club races that just don't get any real promotion from the AAI side of things (not that Ballycotton needs any more promotion!) and it would be better to create awareness of these events, rather than rely on commercial sites like RunIreland to redirect runners to commercial (and club) events.

Pisco Sour

RayCun wrote: »

The answer is always the same though.
Are any of these fun runners going to represent Ireland at the Olympics?
No? Then the AAI will concentrate its resources on the athletes who might.

I can see their point.

Money is tight so the elites deservedly get priority, but would just like to point out that Athletics Victoria (AV) down here have just as much focus on grassroots as they do on the Craig Mottrams of this world, and everything takes place together and is all graded. The AV site lists every single club track and field meet, and every single interclub road race/ road race relay/ cross country race. Looking at the AV site you can plan out your season easily, and know exactly which races will you will run when, and where. It is all up on the site months in advance. Compare this to the AAI site which is a bit messy and hard to navigate. It's hard to really find what you are wanting. Outside of the championships it is hard to find many track and field events listed. I'm having to email people I know back home to find me a 400m race for late July. If this was down here, I'd know months in advance through the well organised AV site. Why not have a full list of all club races/ meets (track, road or otherwise) properly drawn up, with appropriate links and information provided?

Having said that, the AAI site is nothing compared to the Dublin Athletics Board site. That's a nightmare to navigate.

I agree with Dna Leri. A bit disappointed with the article. It didn't really offer many conclusions and just asked a lot of rhetorical questions.

ChickenTikka

pconn062 wrote: »

if you are going to organise a race, even if it is for charity, be prepared to offer the top runners decent money prizes to show up and win.

Probably depends on the motivation behind the race. Club races are generally well organised because the club wants to offer a good event to the running population including attracting a good standard and providing value for money. Its a badge of honour for the club to provide a good race.

Charity races are primarily geared towards raising money for their charity and they don't particularly care if the times ran in their race are not all that good or if they're cheap with the goodies. Their main priority is to raise some money for their charity. So I'd say they are more interested in the social headset wearing participant who jogs/walks around the course rather than the elite who races around it.

So its up to the participant which they choose. They have more than enough choice - if they want a quality race go to the club one, if they want to donate money to charity go to the charity one.

Pisco Sour

ChickenTikka wrote: »

So its up to the participant which they choose. They have more than enough choice - if they want a quality race go to the club one, if they want to donate money to charity go to the charity one.

Option C: Run the high quality club race, and give the money you have saved (by picking the cheaper race) to a charity of your choice. Best of both worlds that way.

nerraw1111

04072511 wrote: »

Option C: Run the high quality club race, and give the money you have saved (by picking the cheaper race) to a charity of your choice. Best of both worlds that way.

or option run the high quality commercial race.

dna_leri

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That exactly describes my evolution. Obviously it's far more important to get athletes into the club environment at a school age, when there is still an opportunity to identify those athletes with potential to break out at their discipline, but for those who escaped athletics at an early age, I don't think the evolution is necessarily a bad thing. At the end of the day it gets more runners into the club environment. Even the large commercial races serve a purpose, as they do get runners to participate, who might not otherwise ever run in a race environment.

I do entirely agree with Timmay's post. There are superb initiatives (like fit4life) and club races that just don't get any real promotion from the AAI side of things (not that Ballycotton needs any more promotion!) and it would be better to create awareness of these events, rather than rely on commercial sites like RunIreland to redirect runners to commercial (and club) events.

Agreed, nothing wrong with the evolution from fun-runner to club member and I am sure there are very few lost opportunities for late-starters because they are mostly motivated enough to join clubs and progress themselves. A bigger problem is that many get lost along the way and do not contribute to grass-roots funding. If you stay at the fun-runner level, very little of what you spend on running gets back into the sport - this is a real lost opportunity for Athletics in Ireland.

Actually part of the problem may be that the AAI does not really look to subscriptions and organising races as a means of funding. Most of their funding is a "pass through" from the sports council and the government and us taxpayers. That creates a "handout mentality" not a commercial one where they are looking to create business opportunities and be self-funded.

Last time I looked 66% of their income came directly from Sports Council / Dept of Sport. Less than 10% from registration, similar amount from sponsorship, and about 5% from entry fees/ permits.

Therefore they can not justify the cost of improving their website or developing easier pathways for runners to join clubs or facilitating race entries because it does not increase the funding they get from the sport council.

Pisco Sour

Dna Leri, do you happen to have a copy of their annual report by any chance? The accountant in me is curious to have a look.

dna_leri

04072511 wrote: »

Dna Leri, do you happen to have a copy of their annual report by any chance? The accountant in me is curious to have a look.

You mean you could not find it on their excellent website.

You will find a summary in this presentation to congress:
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/aai-congress-2012-final2.pdf

I was actually looking at a 2008 summary, so it was somewhat out-of-date. ISC funding now amounts to 56% (€1.9M) with registrations growing to 16% (€559K), competition at 7% and commercial income dropping to 6%. I think the point of it being a non-commercial organistion still holds though, but with some signs of change.

Real change will most likely be driven by need. Government backed funding is likely to continue fall in real-terms in the coming years and the shortfall will need to be made-up in other ways.

The rest of the congress presentation has some interesting nuggets too, including the revamping of the "vibrant website" in 2012. There are a set of objectives for 2014 some of which are measureable but no strategic changes that I could see - probably that's the incremental nature of an organisation which is committee led.

RayCun

dna_leri wrote: »

You mean you could not find it on their excellent website.

You will find a summary in this presentation to congress:
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/aai-congress-2012-final2.pdf

typo on the very first slide <facepalm>

tunguska

I really dont think commercial races will ever kill off club races. Club runners will always gravitate towards events organised by other clubs, especially seeing as a lot of club races(raheny, dunshaughlin) are very established. I think club races are in a different league to commercial ones. The competition is always good, course accurate, and you always get well fed afterwards. But I think most of all theres a sense of community with club races, whereas I've found commercial races to be vacant and impersonal affairs.

BeepBeep67

dna_leri wrote: »

You will find a summary in this presentation to congress:
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/aai-congress-2012-final2.pdf

Registrations up 20% since 2009 and 30 more clubs, so the current road running boom needs to try harder to kill off club athletics!

MrCreosote

RayCun wrote: »

The answer is always the same though.
Are any of these fun runners going to represent Ireland at the Olympics?
No? Then the AAI will concentrate its resources on the athletes who might.

I can see their point.

If that's the attitude of the AAI then they completely give up any claim that they represent athletics in Ireland.

RayCun

MrCreosote wrote: »

If that's the attitude of the AAI then they completely give up any claim that they represent athletics in Ireland.

I'm not saying I agree entirely, but I can understand the perspective.

Pretty much everyone in this forum is a recreational runner, and even here there the question constantly comes up, are we doing enough to support the faster end of that spectrum?
Without opening up that debate again, I can understand why some people in the AAI would think "there are all these other places where fun runners can go, but the only place elite athletes can go for support is us, we are the only people offering top-level coaching, and if we don't produce olympic athletes no-one else will. So let's do that instead of worrying about fun runners"

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I'm not saying I agree entirely, but I can understand the perspective.

Pretty much everyone in this forum is a recreational runner, and even here there the question constantly comes up, are we doing enough to support the faster end of that spectrum?
Without opening up that debate again, I can understand why some people in the AAI would think "there are all these other places where fun runners can go, but the only place elite athletes can go for support is us, we are the only people offering top-level coaching, and if we don't produce olympic athletes no-one else will. So let's do that instead of worrying about fun runners"

Is it their job to look after the fun runner?

To me their job is to look after the kids in athletics and the top athletes at senior level, providing them the basis to move to the next level.

Krusty_Clown

average_runner wrote: »

Is it their job to look after the fun runner?

To me their job is to look after the kids in athletics and the top athletes at senior level, providing them the basis to move to the next level.

Athletics Ireland wrote:

Athletics Ireland is the national governing body for athletics in Ireland. Our primary objective is to promote and develop the sport at every level from recreational running and schools competitions through to supporting Ireland's elite athletes in international competition.

.

ecoli

average_runner wrote: »

Is it their job to look after the fun runner?

To me their job is to look after the kids in athletics and the top athletes at senior level, providing them the basis to move to the next level.

Take care is probably not the right words to use but in a commercial sense that is the demographic which needs to be targeted as a market, they are the ones who spend money on the sport between race entry fees, running gear (has a knock on effect on sponsorship) etc.

I think the job is more to look after the sport as a whole and if there is an additional source of income which can help develop youths and support elites it should be an area which should be looked at

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

Is it their job to look after the fun runner?

To me their job is to look after the kids in athletics and the top athletes at senior level, providing them the basis to move to the next level.

I think it would be good if they helped runners along the conveyor belt mentioned above - expensive commercial race -> race series and marathon -> smaller races and club membership.

Once you're in a club, you can find all of this information about fixtures and entries and so on. Even if the system is hard to navigate, in a club there'll be people who are used to it and know where to look.

But the AAI don't seem to do much to promote club membership or club races.

Pisco Sour

RayCun wrote: »

But the AAI don't seem to do much to promote club membership or club races.

Agreed, and with regards track and field there isn't a huge element on interclub competitions. The Club Championships consists of 2 rounds and then a grand final. Compare that to what is done in Victoria, with 12 rounds (in 6 or 7 regions) followed by a grand final. The entire season here is based around the club and scoring points for the club.

http://athsvic.org.au/viewPage.php?webPageID=138

RayCun

I don't know how likely the AAI is to change, which is why I suggested routing around the problem. There's a Wicklow Fit4Life league and a Galway race series. Maybe the Dublin clubs could organise a Dublin series? Raheny 5 mile, MSB 5k, Donore 5k, Rathfarnham 5k, Sportsworld 5 mile... share some publicity costs between them, agree on cross-promotion, set up a league so runners are motivated to hit all of the races in the series...? It might work?
The same thing could be done with the track-based clubs - Tallaght, Clonliffe, Crusaders...

hot to trot

I'd like to see a poll ...... are you a member of AAI ( club member) or just an independent runner.

BeepBeep67

They are still missing the what's in for me piece.
For the recreational runner, year 1 and year 2 is fine, I'll follow C25k and then Hal Higdon so I have my coaching plan.
I have a network of friends at similar ability that I meet for a run once or twice per week or go to Bootcamp, etc so the camaraderie element is taken care of.
I'll enter large commercial events as I don't want to stand out in the crowd.
All of that makes sense and for a large proportion of these runners they'll gain very little from joining a club and clubs that don't offer a structure to support them will only reinforce their assumptions as to why you shouldn't a club.

1. Clubs need to do more to make themselves attractive to this group (if that's what they want) and offer the right on boarding and support structure.
2. AAI needs to support that through something like 10% off sanctioned races for members, members only site access with access to coaching plans, coaching days for newcomers, etc.

woody1

average_runner wrote: »

Is it their job to look after the fun runner?

To me their job is to look after the kids in athletics and the top athletes at senior level, providing them the basis to move to the next level.

fair enough... but if you get the current crop of recreational runners in, either into the club system or to enter the races you have 2 benefits as i see it anyway
1. you stand a better chance of getting more kids involved in athletics, as if their parents are involved theres a better chance theyl get involved..
2. money.. more race entries = more money to invest in kids and elites,

average_runner

I think big problem for clubs is getting rid of the image to recreational runners that they are not good enough for a club.

All recreational runners are good enough for a club.

I remember when i lived in Milltown in Dublin, I rang a local club futher up the road asking if i could join. They asked me what my times were and said i would not realy suit the club!! I wasnt too fast for them:)


It turned me off clubs for awhile until i met some one from the local club where i live now and its great i have to say. Great craic and good to train with people.

thirtyfoot

As beepbeep pointed out the facts would say no it is not killing club scene. More clubs, membership up, underage medals at continental comps, most A qualifiers ever for an OG, a general rising in standard of depth charts across many events, a replacement of the old guard with new progressive people coming in some positions and so on.

Maybe it's affecting the distance/road runner at club level. Not sure though, 32 teams in latest national novice, almost double on recent years so club level seems to be thriving. I've never seen so many recreational runners at my club. Many clubs finance their yer through a good club race.

Interesting debate provoking article but the facts as of now will say no, it's fine, the jogging boom ain't hurting the club element. Isn't helping either, my track is choc a block and I can't get a lane, nice problem to have.