Clamping on private property?

Monsclara

Hi
Can anyone fill me in on the situation about clamping etc. on property which is not council owned, but unclear as to who owns it?

My situation is I have a door from my back yard leading onto a back lane which runs parallel to a council road. The residents on the road claim I cannot park on the lane but they have not poivided me with any evidence of this. I have done numerous enquiries with city council, PRAI, ground landlords etc. Ground landlords advised me of a company who own the lane but they had no contact details - just care of a solicitors practice. I contacted the solicitors and they had never heard of the company.


I haven't bothered too much about this until recently when my hip arthritis has become significantly worse and walking from where I park my car on public property is getting really difficult. So this evening I took the plunge and parked on the lane at my back door. Residents up in arms which is slightly irritating as they all have double garages and on-street parking. They told me to remove my car which I agreed to do if they show me legal documentation to support their claim.

If they block my exit tomorrow morning (which would not surprise me), what can I do? There are no Private Road or Private parking or clamping signs on the lane, so in that case would I be in my rights to contact the Gardai and if so what could they do? Could a private car clamping company legitimately tow a car away if my exit is blocked?

Would like to find out what my rights are.
Thanks

Gumbo

post a photo or a google maps link to the lane.
If you park, will you block access to your neighbours?
Will you block the laneway for other traffic?
etc

stevenmu

If it is private property, then the owners could contract a clamping company to clamp cars parked there. It's a legally grey-ish area, but that's the standard practice. I doubt very much they could or would tow a car away, as a private company with no legislation to back them up, towing could easily be interpreted as theft, and if they damaged the car they'd be screwed. I'd also guess that the clampers would only be willing to deal with the owners of the private property.

If it's a public road being obstructed, then the Gardaí and/or the council could tow it away pretty easily.

Monsclara

kceire wrote: »

post a photo or a google maps link to the lane.
If you park, will you block access to your neighbours?
Will you block the laneway for other traffic?
etc

The laneway is wide enough for 2 cars to meet and pass each other. I parked the same way as everyone else and there is enough room for a car to be reversed out and turned from the garage opposite where I parked - even though the owner said there wasn't. She asked me to move my car yesterday evening so that she could get out. I did so and she simply reversed back into the space where I had parked and then duly left with the other neighbours. Even then, I was still easily able to reverse back into a pretty narrow space between her car and another. So the claim that I am blocking them doesn't weigh up. Of course I could parallel park alongside my back wall in which case 2 cars could still pass up and down the lane. This morning, there were 2 cars parked very closely on both sides of my car and even then I was able to drive out relatively easily. I've attached an OSI map. The second page shows 4 Eagle Hill ave backing onto the lane parallel to Whitton rd.

Monsclara

stevenmu wrote: »

If it is private property, then the owners could contract a clamping company to clamp cars parked there. It's a legally grey-ish area, but that's the standard practice. I doubt very much they could or would tow a car away, as a private company with no legislation to back them up, towing could easily be interpreted as theft, and if they damaged the car they'd be screwed. I'd also guess that the clampers would only be willing to deal with the owners of the private property.

If it's a public road being obstructed, then the Gardaí and/or the council could tow it away pretty easily.

The problem is I cannot establish ownership. It's not a public (city council) road, it's not registered with land registry, registry of deeds cannot locate it and so it's all up in the air. There are no signs indicating that it's private property, parking not allowed nor clamping in operation. I would have thought that if it was their road, these measures would all be in place? Could I get clamped if there is no signage to say that it's private property and clamping is in place?
Thanks

Gumbo

Monsclara wrote: »

The problem is I cannot establish ownership. It's not a public (city council) road, it's not registered with land registry, registry of deeds cannot locate it and so it's all up in the air. There are no signs indicating that it's private property, parking not allowed nor clamping in operation. I would have thought that if it was their road, these measures would all be in place? Could I get clamped if there is no signage to say that it's private property and clamping is in place?
Thanks

My guess would be that the developer that built the new block of houses on the cul de sac has retained ownership of the road and has simply allowed access and right of way over it to the owners of the houses.

Do you own your house?
can you contact the original developer?

HavingCrack

Legally speaking private clamping is a very grey area. If you actually removed a clamp etc. no guard would prosecute. Whatever about the clamping no private company has the right to tow a car whatsoever, too close to theft.

Gae

If it's not a public road and you don't own it, then you have no right to park there - I'm sure that's obvious, isn't it?

I'm guessing the situation is that there is a row of old houses with a lane behind, and your house is a more recently built mews or something that backs on it it. It was always the situation with terraces and rows of old houses that the lane behind them was collectively owned by the owners of the houses. In some cases, the residents handed them over to the council who took over maintaining them. If that hasn't happened, then it's still in private ownership.

As for the matter of who owns it - whether the residents of the houses own it explicitly won't really matter to them as they would have well established right of way (I'm assuming you don't) and be entitled to use it - so there's nothing much an owner can do with it.

Whether the residents have any authority to clamp you or force you to park somewhere else is hard to know. You are clearly wrong parking to be parking there - you have no more right to park there than in my front garden. Just because you can't establish who owns it doesn't mean you can use it, you're just chancing your arm hoping no one can stop you.

Monsclara

kceire wrote: »

My guess would be that the developer that built the new block of houses on the cul de sac has retained ownership of the road and has simply allowed access and right of way over it to the owners of the houses.

Do you own your house?
can you contact the original developer?

The 3 new houses on the cul-de-sac were built on the land of the cul-de-sac and they don't have access to the back lane and they don't have rights to that. If you can see on the map, there is a large green area at the bottom of the lane and behind the houses. There are 4 large advertising Hoardings in this green area which seems to be no mans land, but I suspect someone owns it.

Yes, I own the house

Monsclara

Gae wrote: »

If it's not a public road and you don't own it, then you have no right to park there -

I'm guessing the situation is that there is a row of old houses with a lane behind, and your house is a more recently built mews or something that backs on it it. It was always the situation with terraces and rows of old houses that the lane behind them was collectively owned by the owners of the houses. In some cases, the residents handed them over to the council who took over maintaining them. If that hasn't happened, then it's still in private ownership.

As for the matter of who owns it - whether the residents of the houses own it explicitly won't really matter to them as they would have well established right of way (I'm assuming you don't) and be entitled to use it - so there's nothing much an owner can do with it.

Whether the residents have any authority to clamp you or force you to park somewhere else is hard to know. You are clearly wrong parking to be parking there - you have no more right to park there than in my front garden. Just because you can't establish who owns it doesn't mean you can use it, you're just chancing your arm hoping no one can stop you.

Actually it's not obvious to me that I can't park there in the situation where I have a door leading onto the lane, allowing pedestrian access. My house is over 100 years old which is possibly older than the houses on the opposite side of the lane I don't see that I'm "clearly wrong" parking there, as I have pedestrian access, the residents on the opposite side park there, despite having double garages backing onto it.
Regarding me parking in your front garden, I'm assuming you can demonstrate that you have ownership of same in which case it is very clear that I would be wrong to park there. In my case, no one can demonstrate private ownership, so aren't the residents on the opposite side "clearly wrong" parking there as well? I don't understand your argument that with me having pedestrian access onto the lane is wrong but it's ok for residents on the opposite side to park there. As the residents on the opposite side can't establish who owns it, why is it OK for them to park there? As to "chancing my arm", doesn't the same apply to the other residents?

Monsclara

HavingCrack wrote: »

Legally speaking private clamping is a very grey area. If you actually removed a clamp etc. no guard would prosecute. Whatever about the clamping no private company has the right to tow a car whatsoever, too close to theft.

Yes, I think you are correct there. But I believe that clamping can be challenged when there is no public signage of private land and "clamping in operation"

stevenmu

If the residents who are complaining are actually parking there themselves, then it sounds like they're just trying to protect their own spots, which they have no more right to than you do.

Monsclara

stevenmu wrote: »

If the residents who are complaining are actually parking there themselves, then it sounds like they're just trying to protect their own spots, which they have no more right to than you do.

Yes, I agree. But their houses have double garages backing onto the lane (which I would not be blocking if I parked there) as well as on-street parking at the front, so they do actually have plenty of space to park. If I could be sure of getting parking in the cul--de-sac, it wouldn't be a problem but often I have to drive around looking for a spot which can be some distance from my house. It can be very painful for me to walk after working all day because of the hip arthritis. Being able to get to my home by parking at my back door would just make life a lot easier for me.

jeckle

I don't think that, legally, anyone should be parking on it, but having said that you have as much 'right' to park there as they have. I would continue to park there until someone can prove to you that you have no right to park there, in which case neither have they. If people have garages plus on street parking they should have no need to park there at all, & are basically being selfish.

If they insist on making a legal issue out of it they will soon find themselves very unpopular with the rest of their neighbours who also park there. As for the woman who asked you to move while she took her car out of her garage, she mustn't be confident enough to manoeuvre her car in more confined spaces, but that reflects on her driving capabilities rather than any rights she may have.

Is there a resident's association in the area? I'd say there probably is. Maybe you could ask them to clarify & follow up on your behalf.

Monsclara

jeckle wrote: »

I don't think that, legally, anyone should be parking on it, but having said that you have as much 'right' to park there as they have. I would continue to park there until someone can prove to you that you have no right to park there, in which case neither have they. If people have garages plus on street parking they should have no need to park there at all, & are basically being selfish.

If they insist on making a legal issue out of it they will soon find themselves very unpopular with the rest of their neighbours who also park there. As for the woman who asked you to move while she took her car out of her garage, she mustn't be confident enough to manoeuvre her car in more confined spaces, but that reflects on her driving capabilities rather than any rights she may have.

Is there a resident's association in the area? I'd say there probably is. Maybe you could ask them to clarify & follow up on your behalf.

Thanks Jeckle. I will look into the resident's association but will probably find that all of them are members! As it happens I had to leave work early today so I got a parking space in the cul-de-sac. To be honest I can't face parking on the back lane today. As well as the arthritis, I suffer from severe depression and when the mood is low, the physical pain gets worse, or at least I am more aware of it, so often I'm not up to confrontations if I can avoid them. But I know this defeats the purpose as I should try and make my stake. Maybe tomorrow. But thanks for your support.

Koni

Can you clamp cars on a private property? Say we would not be looking for a fees to be paid, just to try to teach people not to park in the place.

We are in the middle of the town and place was empty for over 10 years and people used to park there. We have now put sign and posts to inform people. But even if you tell them some of them gets very aggressive and just leave the car and go.

We can't be running the business with our car park full of cars we can't move. They also could be blocking the entrance to the unit.

What are our options in this situation?

The Hill Billy

Maybe ask in Motors or Legal Discussion. Not a Dublin City specific topic.

tHB