Greece confirms second elections in June

RobitTV

Very sad news for the innocent people of greece today, as they are forced to go the polls again -

Nine days after an inconclusive poll, efforts broke down after Syriza, the Radical Left Coalition, refused to form a government of technocrats or “respected personalities” proposed by President Karolos Papoulias.

A caretaker government will be formed on Wednesday, said a spokesman for the president.

Evangelos Venizelos, the Socialist party leader, said after the meeting: “For God’s sake, let’s move towards something better and not something worse. Our motherland can find its way, we will fight for it to find its way.”

News article

The EU seems to be more doomed then ever

Lantus

The writing was on the wall for greece from day 1. All the talk from political leaders and attempts to save it were misguided. You could throw a trillion at greece and it would do little good. The fundementals of the country are broken. Voluntary tax and bloated public spending are not a great mix. Lying about all your accounts to gain EU entry were a tell tale sign that you had little regard for stability or honesty. The fact that the EU didn't notice or ignored this hoping things would better dont bode well for the rest of the EU either.

Although it's too late we need to cut Greece loose and let it navigate it's own course. If we keep rewarding the corrupt leaders who perpetrated this tryanny they will never learn a lesson. Greece cannot survive in the EU. It needs to experience severe devaluation to survivie because it's economy is artifically represented by the euro.

Moving our armies to the borders of greece to prevent a mass exodus into the EU would be a good move before that. (after all once they are ejected from the EU they will not be able to freely enter.)

It's a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen. Between here and June an interim government will have little power and its doubtful they will get additional funding. We will be providing food aid to Greece within 6 months.

There is a revolution waiting to happen in this country and I had predicted 2012 as that year and it looks like we are at the zenith of that change from order to chaos.

What is most worrying is the relativley small amount of news coverage Greece gets. It's as if there is a deliberate intention to deflect what is really happening in Greece from the EU and the world. We should be asking ourselves why...

godtabh

Lantus wrote: »

The writing was on the wall for greece from day 1. All the talk from political leaders and attempts to save it were misguided. You could throw a trillion at greece and it would do little good. The fundementals of the country are broken. Voluntary tax and bloated public spending are not a great mix. Lying about all your accounts to gain EU entry were a tell tale sign that you had little regard for stability or honesty. The fact that the EU didn't notice or ignored this hoping things would better dont bode well for the rest of the EU either.

Although it's too late we need to cut Greece loose and let it navigate it's own course. If we keep rewarding the corrupt leaders who perpetrated this tryanny they will never learn a lesson. Greece cannot survive in the EU. It needs to experience severe devaluation to survivie because it's economy is artifically represented by the euro.

Moving our armies to the borders of greece to prevent a mass exodus into the EU would be a good move before that. (after all once they are ejected from the EU they will not be able to freely enter.)

It's a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen. Between here and June an interim government will have little power and its doubtful they will get additional funding. We will be providing food aid to Greece within 6 months.

There is a revolution waiting to happen in this country and I had predicted 2012 as that year and it looks like we are at the zenith of that change from order to chaos.

What is most worrying is the relativley small amount of news coverage Greece gets. It's as if there is a deliberate intention to deflect what is really happening in Greece from the EU and the world. We should be asking ourselves why...

They would be ejected from the single currency not the EU

Dirk Gently

The bail out circus has to end somewhere, might as well get it over with.

beeftotheheels

godtabh wrote: »

They would be ejected from the single currency not the EU

They won't be ejected but they may have to leave, and if they're leaving the euro they would be mad not to also leave the EU because as long as they remain an EU Member they cannot default on debts owed to the ECB or other official creditors.

The Greek President said €700m had been withdrawn from Greek banks since the election. They're unable to collect their property taxes. Between the bank run and the falling tax take they may have no option but to crank up the National Bank of Greece printing presses refitted with drachma plates.

Lantus

godtabh wrote: »

They would be ejected from the single currency not the EU

Correct, first and foremost the euro is what they need to get rid of. However, give the knock on effects it could have removing them from the EU although unprecedented could be on the cards as well.

godtabh

Lantus wrote: »

Correct, first and foremost the euro is what they need to get rid of. However, give the knock on effects it could have removing them from the EU although unprecedented could be on the cards as well.

Greece will always be linked to thr EU in some way whether or not they get rid of the single currency.

The could operate like the EU or like the Swiss. They will have options.

But they do need to leave the single currency. That may give the markets some certainty

snubbleste

Other EU countries (Austria) have stated that if Greece exits the Eurozone, it must also leave the EU.

I still can't get over the fact that whatever party comes first in elections in Greece gets a bonus of 50 parliamentary seats out of a total of 300.

Manach

AFAIR there are mechanisms set up to leave the EU, as Greenland did, but they would take about 2Ys to run through and are premised on it being a voluntary act.

Dubhlinner

Hmmm. I'm guessing they'll pay for this election by borrowing from europe. If they leave the euro as seems likely they'll obviously never pay it back. Seems a bit pointless

meglome

RobitTV wrote: »

Very sad news for the innocent people of greece today, as they are forced to go the polls again -

Well it is sad news but let's be fair a lot of Greek people are not innocent in this mess. And they are not being forced to do anything.

RobitTV wrote: »

The EU seems to be more doomed then ever

I dunno I can't help but feel we'd all be better off with the Greeks gone, though I'd imagine the Greeks won't be. I just can't see them cleaning up their act.

Cookie_Monster

What happens in a situation like this regarding people who were elected this time but may not be next time re pay and entitlements etc?
Genuily curious, not simply moaning that they'll get x and y and z despite only being there for a couple of weeks. So say election campaing expenses, are these granted despite the election itself not being successful in the end so to speak?

As a voter I'd also be pretty insulted to have to vote all over again after a few weeks just because they couldn't agree, it's similar enough to the treaties in Ireland: wrong answer, try again.
I mean what reason would you have to move from your preferred candidate(s) in such a short space of time when you can easily blame the ones you don't like for not forming the gov anyway.

jimmycrackcorm

Manach wrote: »

AFAIR there are mechanisms set up to leave the EU, as Greenland did, but they would take about 2Ys to run through and are premised on it being a voluntary act.

All bets are off when it comes to telling Greece: We're not lending you more money.

The EU could simply decide to cut their losses and deal with the Greek default by implementing specific exceptional ECB measures. But the same cannot be said for the Greek financial debt because they would just continue indefinitely.

superluck

Why are Greek people expected to shoulder the burden on behalf of financial parasites?

If the Greek people want to leave the single currency, it should be their choice, not some bureaucrats in the pocket of bankers.

No government has EVER paid back it's debt to a central bank, -- that's why the whole Euro project is doomed to fail, because some people actually believe it's possible.

Ireland will eventually get screwed over for everything it has.

superluck

superluck wrote: »

Why are Greek people expected to shoulder the burden on behalf of financial parasites?

If the Greek people want to leave the single currency, it should be their choice, not some bureaucrats in the pocket of bankers.

No government has EVER paid back it's debt to a central bank, -- that's why the whole Euro project is doomed to fail, because some people actually believe it's possible.

Ireland will eventually get screwed over for everything it has.

powa to da people!

superluck

I would challenge anyone on these forums to find a single instance in history where a government paid it's debt back in full to the central bank.

US government are selling T bills at 2.5% interest but the FED is lending money to the private banks at 0.25% so of course the private banks are borrowing from the FED to invest in T bills.

At some point, the idiocy of this banking system will have to end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Federal_debt

And if you're interested, you can read about what happened next

superluck

So what's the solution?

seamus

superluck wrote: »

Why are Greek people expected to shoulder the burden on behalf of financial parasites?

Because the Greek people continually voted in politicians who supported these "financial parasites" and allowed them to operate how they did. They also continually voted in governments who maintained their unsustainable fiscal policies because they didn't want to put their own hands in their pockets and pay tax.

Why should the Greek people be allowed to walk away from the mess that they created?

Einhard

superluck wrote: »

Why are Greek people expected to shoulder the burden on behalf of financial parasites?

Yeah, damn those pesky financial parasites for forcing the $15 billion white elephant that was the Athens Olympics on the poor people of Greece. :rolleyes:

Why are some people so adverse to the idea of personal responsibility? The Greek people spent too much and paid too little, and now they're reaping the consequences.

hatrickpatrick

superluck wrote: »

I would challenge anyone on these forums to find a single instance in history where a government paid it's debt back in full to the central bank.

US government are selling T bills at 2.5% interest but the FED is lending money to the private banks at 0.25% so of course the private banks are borrowing from the FED to invest in T bills.

At some point, the idiocy of this banking system will have to end.

I've been saying this for years. I still have some hope that the whole thing will totally fall apart and governments will be forced to design a new monetary system, but it seems they're all absolutely determined to prolong the inevitable and keep applying plasters to broken bones.

It's like watching the Titanic sink whilst the captain insists that the real problem is the speed of the ship or its direction, rather than the gaping hole in its hull letting all the water in.

superluck

Einhard wrote: »

Yeah, damn those pesky financial parasites for forcing the $15 billion white elephant that was the Athens Olympics on the poor people of Greece. :rolleyes:

Why are some people so adverse to the idea of personal responsibility? The Greek people spent too much and paid too little, and now they're reaping the consequences.

By definition, a parasite can be:

A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return

Sounds perfectly reasonable to label specific bankers parasites.

As for personal responsibility, were the banks not responsible for lending excess capital in the first place? No moral hazard?

Do banks bear no responsibility at all in your view? I'm presuming you don't believe so.

If a shop keeper decided to sell all his stock with a 90% discount, thus going bankrupt and unable to continue his business, you would say the customers who bought the stock were responsible.

Think about that for a moment because it's exactly the same logic you're applying to customers of Irish banks.

Benny_Cake

seamus wrote: »

Because the Greek people continually voted in politicians who supported these "financial parasites" and allowed them to operate how they did. They also continually voted in governments who maintained their unsustainable fiscal policies because they didn't want to put their own hands in their pockets and pay tax.

Why should the Greek people be allowed to walk away from the mess that they created?

The mess is one that the Greek people can't walk away from in any case, thanks to the incompetence, greed, and outright corruption of their political class. The question is what is the least worst option for them and for Europe? The bailout isn't working for anyone, structural reforms in Athens have ground to a halt, and the poorest are continuing to be hit with more new taxes as the tax collection system seems to be similar to that of Ireland of the 1970s. Do we accept that the bailouts aren't working and won't work? If that is the case, then leaving the Euro seems the only other option.

Anita Blow

superluck wrote: »

By definition, a parasite can be:

A person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return

Sounds perfectly reasonable to label specific bankers parasites.

As for personal responsibility, were the banks not responsible for lending excess capital in the first place? No moral hazard?

Do banks bear no responsibility at all in your view? I'm presuming you don't believe so.

If a shop keeper decided to sell all his stock with a 90% discount, thus going bankrupt and unable to continue his business, you would say the customers who bought the stock were responsible.

Think about that for a moment because it's exactly the same logic you're applying to customers of Irish banks.

I think you're argument about bankers responsibility applies more to Ireland, not Greece.
The reason Greece is in the position it is in is down to the fact that the Greeks lied their way into the euro first of all, and also that they are extremely non-tax compliant while having huge government expenditure.

At least for Ireland, while a good chunk of the blame can be put on the people, the problem has been exacerbated by our banking crisis whereas the Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves really.

WolfgangWeisen

If Greece leave or are made leave the Euro, where is their incentive to pay back their debts?

If they stop paying their debts, how do we feel they should be dealt with?

Manach

Perhaps in Greece it is time to return to a more traditional way of ruling. I believe that Prince Philip, being of Greek extraction, would prove an interesting choice of king .

carveone

WolfgangWeisen wrote: »

If Greece leave or are made leave the Euro, where is their incentive to pay back their debts?

When their debts are in a hard currency and their income in drachmas? That's an impossible situation. They would have to chuck it in and massively default. It's been done before but not quite like this where the EU structures make it so difficult for a government to do what's necessary - that is to stop individuals from exercising their rights. Which is why exiting the EU also becomes likely.

It's a grim situation made much worse by this governmental void. Bank runs have already started it appears, as people figure out what's going to happen. I'm really not sure what the scenario will be by June 17...

Devostator

Appreciate the effort Kosta. I am curious what happened to Drasi/DX. 1.5% is next to a catastrophe!

ZeroThreat

Anyone have an update on what's happening in Greece now?