"Shovel Ready" projects for EU funding

munchkin_utd

So, it seems like rather than burning billions in propping up banks and writing off debts the EU might actually use some of the money used to fire fight in the crisis to do something productive and fund infrastructure projects that are ready to roll.

Below is the article from the indo, there was a similar one in the Sunday Business Post yesterday too.

My question is do we have a list of what roads projects are ready to start tomorrow should funding magically become available?

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny is ready to spring a wish list of job-rich projects on EU chiefs to cash in on a possible new growth plan for Europe.

He is drawing up the list, which would create thousands of jobs on road, rail, housing, school, health, broadband and water projects.

The Government will have details of capital investment projects at its fingertips if leaders strike a deal to kick-start economic growth.

EU leaders are coming under increasing pressure to pump money into stagnant economies amid growing opposition toward the cutbacks and tax hikes insisted on by Germany to balance the books. <snip>

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-draws-up-jobs-list-to-cash-in-on-eu-deal-3106025.html

Aside from roads there a lot of other labour intensive stuff that they could start but maybe that could be kept to the Infrastructure fourm proper.

Aidan1

Given that this is largely a hypothetical question, it's difficult to say, but it's likely that any funds/loans would come with conditions attached around the uses to which they could be put. Infrastructure investment only has a long term benefit if the projects themselves are sensible (sufficient demand exists for the project to have an economically efficient outcome). Most of the really 'valuable' projects in this State have already been built, but there are a few that suggest themselves. Not all of these have PP though, but the likes of the Galway City Outer Bypass and a part of the N17/18 project would probably pass muster. The N11 and Newlands Cross projects are going ahead anyway (hopefully), so it would be great if the PP (and CPO) for some key projects could be pushed ahead - M20, Dunkettle etc. There are some smaller projects that would have a pretty major impact too - Macroom bypass, Navan and the likes.

If these funds do become available though, perhaps the best use for them would be to build Metro North and the Dart Interconnector, and to hit a few key roads projects outside of the GDA (as well as the water system and probably electricty transmission lines).

With rents in Dublin increasing and high quality jobs on the increase there, i would say that it is the regional cities and towns that need the boost thats if this is supposed to be for growth. The last thing you want is to start a mini bubble in Dublin again. If it does go to the capital i hope its for the metro North or interconnector which should of been completed ten years ago.

My own choice would be the M17/18 and M20, Galway City Bypass and M4 Mullingar to Longford. With these road jobs split into sections between as many companies as commercially possible to employ larger numbers over a shorter time period. Expansion of the new transatlantic fibre cable that is due to be landed in Belmullet next year would also be very labour intensive.

black47

Deleted User wrote: »

With rents in Dublin increasing and high quality jobs on the increase there, i would say that it is the regional cities and towns that need the boost thats if this is supposed to be for growth. The last thing you want is to start a mini bubble in Dublin again. If it does go to the capital i hope its for the metro North or interconnector which should of been completed ten years ago.

My own choice would be the M17/18 and M20 and M4 Mullingar to Longford. With these jobs split between as many companies as commercially possible to employ larger numbers over a shorter time period. Expansion of the new transatlantic fibre cable that is due to be landed in Belmullet next year would also be very labour intensive.

Unfortunately, Unless I'm mistaken, the M20 has been withdrawn from An Bord Pleanala and the application process would have to start all over again, so it wouldn't be shovel ready. A bit of a short sighted decision really given that the only snag being the exit for the people of Buttevant had been incorporated into the scheme.

Roll on the N17/N18. That project is crying out to start if the funding becomes available

munchkin_utd

ok, from the NRA the following are in "planning" stage but thats far from saying they're ready to goto construction.
http://www.nra.ie/mapping/
You'd presume that these schemes are nearer to shovel ready than "supended" ones.

Scheme Status Start County End County Local Authority
N2 Slane Bypass Planning Meath Meath Meath County Council
N2 Castleblayney to Border Planning Monaghan Monaghan Monaghan County Council
N3 North of Kells to Cavan Planning Cavan Cavan County Council
N4 Collooney /Castlebaldwin Planning Sligo Sligo Sligo County Council
N4 N15 Sligo Urban Road Improvement Planning Sligo Sligo Sligo County Council
N5 N26 N58 Turlough to Bohola Planning Mayo Mayo Mayo County Council
N5 Westport to Turlough Planning Mayo Mayo Mayo County Council
N5 Ballaghaderreen Bypass Planning Roscommon Roscommon Roscommon County Council
N7NaasNewbridgeBypassUpgrade Planning Kildare Kildare Kildare County Council
M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy Planning Wexford Wexford Wexford County Council
N11/25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour Planning Wexford Wexford Wexford County Council
N14 / N15 to A5 Link Planning Donegal Tyrone Donegal County Council
N17 Collooney to Tobercurry Bypass Planning Sligo Sligo Sligo County Council
N8 Dunkettle Interchange Planning Cork Cork Cork County Council
N21 Adare Bypass Planning Limerick Limerick Limerick County Council
N22 Ballyvourney Macroom Planning Cork Cork Cork County Council
N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir (WesternCorridor) Planning Limerick Tipperary South Tipperary County Council
N25 Waterford to Glenmore Planning Kilkenny Kilkenny Kilkenny County Council
N25 New Ross Bypass Planning Kilkenny Wexford Wexford County Council
N52 Ardee Bypass Planning Meath Louth Louth County Council
N56DungloetoGlenties Planning Donegal Donegal Donegal County Council
N56 Mountcharles to Inver Planning Donegal Donegal Donegal County Council
N59 Clifden to Oughterard Planning Galway Galway Galway County Council
N59 Moycullen Bypass Planning Galway Galway Galway County Council
N59 Westport to Mulranny Planning Mayo Mayo Mayo County Council
N69 Listowel Bypass Planning Kerry Kerry Kerry County Council
N81 Tallaght to Hollywood Cross Planning Dublin Wicklow Kildare County Council
N86 Tralee to An Daingean Planning Kerry Kerry Kerry County Council

antoobrien

munchkin_utd wrote: »

ok, from the NRA the following are in "planning" stage but thats far from saying they're ready to goto construction.
http://www.nra.ie/mapping/
You'd presume that these schemes are nearer to shovel ready than "supended" ones.

Some of those will be closer to shovel ready than others - e.g. N17/18 is awaiting funding where the N59 Moycullen bypass is just past the Oral hearing stage. Depending on the timing of any plan and the outcome of the case in the ECJ, the GCOB could end up on that list.

To get a more realistic list we'd need to know what stage of planning the schemes are at.

munchkin_utd

antoobrien wrote: »

Some of those will be closer to shovel ready than others - e.g. N17/18 is awaiting funding where the N59 Moycullen bypass is just past the Oral hearing stage. Depending on the timing of any plan and the outcome of the case in the ECJ, the GCOB could end up on that list.

To get a more realistic list we'd need to know what stage of planning the schemes are at.

indeed, thats my original point!

We have a sticky list of what has started construction but we need a list too of possible next projects.
i.e. whats past route selection, planning or ready for CPO (or partially completed already) separate from all the distractions of pie in the sky 30km long stretches of national secondary that'll never see the light of day that are listed on the NRA site.

Sponge Bob

The M20 (South) is basically through an Bord Pleanála once a Buttevant exit design is submitted..... as is M11, GCOB, M17/18, N22 Macroom Bypass, N59 schemes in Mayo Donegal and Kerry, N25 New Ross,

Widening the M4 M7 M50 M11 and M1 can be done as Part 8.

Some have legal issues ( notably GCOB and N22) but most are on the shelf ready for the dushtin off. !

Ewokmonday

There is a belief that ireland will get a war chest of 10 or 15 billion euro to build metronorth and dart underground and m20 motorway etc,this will not happen,extra funding will be given to the european investment bank of which ireland will be able to tap to free up money for some ppps that are stuck in the mud due to a bankrupt exchequer and an insurance policy to the private sector so they dont lose out,what will happen is ireland will get 1 or 2 billion to invest in ppps so schools an odd hospital and electricity network will get funding metro north and dart underground will not,neither will any motorways apart from 1 or 2 bypasses like macroom or in mayo.

ardmacha

The A5 might be a suitably "Euro" project to warrant some assistance. Even a soft loan with the Dublin contribution being towards repayments after 2020 might do the trick.

Ewokmonday

This is not going to be the stimulus that we need,labour are desperate to sell this to the unions for a yes vote in the austerity treaty,in the coming weeks government will spell out what will go ahead with eib money,and people who believe metronorth and dart underground will go ahead are going to be seriously disappointed,as are people who believe that roads will go ahead like gcob gort to tuam and m20 because they wont,the metro and dart the government will say will be delayed until the future when the economy improves code for we dont want to be seen to totally scrap both of them as they will never ever happen,so we will leave them to the next government to scrap,i think we will see money spent on planning brt,and on health and education and energy projects byebye metro and dart hello new buses for dublin bus

Pete_Cavan

I am not sure if this is would have a positive effect on our economy. Tender prices here are still stupidly low and any projects undertaken would most likely result in contractors losing money and/or screwing subbies and suppliers. Either way, the only winners will be those in the legal profession as the contractor fight for claims which they most likely wont be entitled to. I dont fully understand the economics of it but I dont think it is as simple as pour money into undertaking a project, let the money slush around the economy and everyone comes out the other side better off. If people are losing money on these projects, surely it has a negative effect on the economy. IMO it would be better to leave any stimulus until tender prices reach reasonable leaves and there is adequate legal protection for subbies and suppliers.

Also, I would be worried this is just kicking the can down the road (I hate that phrase but cant think of a better one right now) and will result in all those additional construction workers taken on losing their jobs again once the projects end. What we need is stable capital spending so that the jobs are sustainable instead of just prolonging these boom and bust cycles.

Sponge Bob

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What we need is stable capital spending so that the jobs are sustainable instead of just prolonging these boom and bust cycles.

I agree Pete, what is required is enough predictable work to keep 2 or 3 high quality operations intact such as Roadbridge for example. We cannot fund 4 or 5 of them with Spanish consortia taking up the overhead as we could in the 00's

A predictable schools programme could keep construction ( not Civil) operations ticking over.

But ticking over and maintaining quality teams is the target for the next few years, perhaps as many as 10 years. One could conceivably expand slightly off that base in future. Once the teams are broken up and scattered across the planet it takes a lot to reassemble them.

Zonda999

I agree with the earlier sentiments, any so called stimulus will not be used for road projects, it will be used for smaller projects like schools and smaller hospital/primary care centres etc..

marmurr1916

Zonda999 wrote: »

I agree with the earlier sentiments, any so called stimulus will not be used for road projects, it will be used for smaller projects like schools and smaller hospital/primary care centres etc..

Can't see the full story without a subscription, but it mentions road projects:

Government finalising multibillion-euro stimulus deal for state projects
20 May 2012 by Pat Leahy

The government is preparing a multibillion-euro stimulus package which will fund a school-building programme, primary care health centres and roads projects.

http://www.businesspost.ie/

L1011

Ive taken a very quick flick through the SBP (usually takes me a day or two to read it) and I can't find that story, I'll try again properly later.

Wild Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

With rents in Dublin increasing and high quality jobs on the increase there, i would say that it is the regional cities and towns that need the boost thats if this is supposed to be for growth. The last thing you want is to start a mini bubble in Dublin again.

:pac:

Chances of a bubble, mini or micro, in Dublin over the next decade are zero!

If it does go to the capital i hope its for the metro North or interconnector which should of been completed ten years ago.

The money (if any) will hardly reach to a level to fund the inter-connector or MN.

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

Ive taken a very quick flick through the SBP (usually takes me a day or two to read it) and I can't find that story, I'll try again properly later.

Read it at the weekend. It doesn't list any projects.

saywhatyousee

I really hope the N4 collooney-castlebaldwin is done it only a short 8 km stretch its the only part of the whole N4 that has not received an upgrade

Sponge Bob

saywhatyousee wrote: »

I really hope the N4 collooney-castlebaldwin is done

This??

munchkin_utd

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This??

surely it cant be that bad of a road seeing as this bend (with all the warning signs) here is so harmless that users need to be reminded not to exceed 100kmh on it - ahem.
http://maps.google.de/maps?q=Castlebaldwin,+County+Sligo,+Irland&hl=de&ll=54.097456,-8.396387&spn=0.042329,0.111494&geocode=FaOVOAMd83SA_w&hnear=Castlebaldwin,+County+Sligo,+Irland&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=54.097379,-8.396315&panoid=gn1BrkC_7i54A0ejAwQiZg&cbp=12,319.11,,1,5.1

but seriously, surely to god you cant do 100kmh round that bend ? (edit:let alone be over the limit that a sign is required to keep you in check)

L1011

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This??

Nope, that's a patchwork job to try and make the bit of road that Collooney -Castlebaldwin is to bypass

The eventual plan is for a mixed T1/T2 DC from the end of the existing T1 at Collooney down to Castlebaldwin.

The worst bits now have electronic traffic-activated 50 warning signs - installed since Google passed by.

Wild Bill

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but seriously, surely to god you cant do 100kmh round that bend ?

Trust me - you can! (not safely, obviously - even if you're 18 driving a souped-up GTI :rolleyes:)

Seriously, I think the NRA are keeping sections like this and the infamous Rathnew-Arklow stretch up their sleeves so that when the deaths from RTAs stop falling they'll still have some headroom for further reductions in the death toll.

munchkin_utd

just revisiting this subject now that it has been announced that the Tuam-Gort M17/M18 is to go ahead along with Enniscorthy-Gorey M11 and New Ross N25 Bypass.

after a bit of scouring, I found a document that outlines pretty much all the "shovel ready" projects that have come to fruition.
http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/GeneralPublications/file,17197,en.pdf
Any project which in 2010 was past the route selection and is stated with a given km length is now either built, announced to be built or blocked subject to court/ bord planala proceedings (galway/ slane/ ballyvourney).

So from my reading, if the EU were to be forthcoming with a further investment + stimulus programme we'd have nothing ready to proceed with overnight as it currently stands.

antoobrien

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So from my reading, if the EU were to be forthcoming with a further investment + stimulus programme we'd have nothing ready to proceed with overnight as it currently stands.

I wouldn't be too worried about that eventuality, you'll hear the dubs screaming that the culcuhies are getting all the money and demand that MN, DU and other white elephants are prioritized.

Aidan1

stimulus programme we'd have nothing ready to proceed with overnight as it currently stands.

Not on the road front. Wouldn't take long to get either MN or the DART Underground/Interconnecter project up and running though. And there are a small number of roads projects in planning (Dunkettle) or stuck in court that might break free in the next while (GCOB).

antoobrien

Aidan1 wrote: »

Not on the road front. Wouldn't take long to get either MN or the DART Underground/Interconnecter project up and running though. And there are a small number of roads projects in planning (Dunkettle) or stuck in court that might break free in the next while (GCOB).

Actually the situation may not be as bad as it looks initially on the roads front. The N4 schemes are probably closer to Shovel ready than we might think. There are 4 listed in the doc as "Subject to final design" - however the Downs Grade separation is already under construction. There's probably a bit of room for manoeuvre if we shake loose money for planning activities.

Bards

I didn't know shovel-ready projects could take 2.5 Years to commence?

http://per.gov.ie/2012/07/17/speech-by-minister-brendan-howlin-td-government-infrastructure-stimulus/

Timeframe for Delivery
M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy and the New Ross bypass are expected to commence by end 2014.

antoobrien

Bards wrote: »

I didn't know shovel-ready projects could take 2.5 Years to commence?

http://per.gov.ie/2012/07/17/speech-by-minister-brendan-howlin-td-government-infrastructure-stimulus/

Timeframe for Delivery
M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy and the New Ross bypass are expected to commence by end 2014.

Tender process takes about a year. Hell N17/18 is already tendered and they're only expecting it to start next year.