am i mad

life???? · 14-05-2012 9:38am #1

Hi all. I am a fully qualified pilot and am currently instructing for the ppl. I finished my training in early 2008 but due to the down turn have found it very hard to get my first airline job and do not have the money to invest further for a type rating. I have being instructing people for the last 3 years now and do enjoy it but because of the lack of a decent wage i am struggling to pay my way. No mater who i talk to.the all seem to have a different opinion on when things are going to.pick up if at all. Due to commitment reasons i can not travel to far from home.

My question is, am i mad to be considering changing career after all the time and money i have invested into flying. I do have a few ideas up my sleeve as what else to.get into and one wound be the catering industry as i have a love for food and cooking.

Any thoughts?

highlydebased · 14-05-2012 9:48am

Fully qualified as in you have an ATPL or what?

I don't work in the industry but I'm of the general opinion that take everything you can get as it will give you hours and count toward experience.

If you don't have a TR many airlines won't touch you. With the way things are you'll have to consider at least commuting to the UK- you wouldn't be the only one to do it

There are a couple of working pilots on here who will hopefully give better advice than that.

life???? · 14-05-2012 9:55am

highlydebased wrote: »

Fully qualified as in you have an ATPL or what?

I don't work in the industry but I'm of the general opinion that take everything you can get as it will give you hours and count toward experience.

If you don't have a TR many airlines won't touch you. With the way things are you'll have to consider at least commuting to the UK- you wouldn't be the only one to do it

There are a couple of working pilots on here who will hopefully give better advice than that.

Well i have a frozen atpl with around 1400hours most of which are single engine instruction time.

I am willing to move around europe

logie101 · 14-05-2012 9:56am

Yes I think you are.

You have done exceptionally well and passed a lot of exams to get to the stage you are at now. The reality is it is difficult to earn decent money in any industry at the minute.

Why do you not continue with the instructing and start a new venture in your spare time?

life???? · 14-05-2012 10:17am

logie101 wrote: »

Yes I think you are.

You have done exceptionally well and passed a lot of exams to get to the stage you are at now. The reality is is difficult to earn decent money in any industry at the minute.

Why do you not continue with the instructing and start a new venture in your spare time?

At the moment i am working seven days a week, all weather dependant. I would be making more money on the dole as to what i am making now. The company that i work for looks like it is going under, hence why i am looking at my options. To further myself in aviation i have to invest a lot of more money into it and am thinking is it time i stop investing on a losing bet. Things will come good sometime but no one knows when that will be and if its not for another 5 years or so i will have to put in another 15 to 20k into the pot and that is just to stay current not for a type rating.

I am just playing with ideas at the moment.

Cactus466 · 14-05-2012 10:50am

Hi Life????

Hope you are well. I'm in a very similar situation to you except I do not instruct. I finished Nov 2011, I realise it has only been 6 months since I finished but I feel exactly the same and am even looking at going back to college and finishing off a degree.

I started training in 2008, so it took 3 years to get to this point. However I think you are very lucky to be even instucting;).

The job market is absolutely terrible at the moement not just for aviation too.

We are kind of left in this awkward situation with regards any kind of employment and in order to stand any kind of chance of progressing with a piloting career we will have to "fork out" again for type ratings, line training etc. Some of the prices for these schemes are through the roof, almost paying for you entire training over again.

I am very reluctant to put any more money into it at all, even an instructor's rating as I'm afraid I'll be down in funds again and with no job. Mate I even thought about doing cabin-crew but after a few weeks I decided it's just not for me.

I know it's not very comforting but there is a awful amount of people like us in the exact same position.

xflyer · 14-05-2012 11:29am

Well the obvious solution is get another full time job and keep up the Instructing part time. That way you can stay in touch with flying and earn enough money to live and put cash away for to keep the IR up to date.

It might be a good thing. It's possible to have too many of the wrong kind of hours, particularly when it's all single engine right seat.

You could give up completely but for now I would suggest settling in for the long haul. In three years time everything might have changed and you never know what opportunities pop up in the meantime. Jobs can come out of nowhere, apparently;).:D

There is nothing more frustrating than seeing an opportunity and not being in a position to exploit it.

Waiting years to get the into the airlines was usually the norm in the past and that's the way it's going again. Meanwhile you stay in the loop and have patience. Five or six years would be relatively common. I can't think of several senior Captains now who took many years to get that elusive airline job.

You mention the school might be in trouble, any clues? Although it's not hard to work out.

Suits · 14-05-2012 11:38am

Cactus466 wrote: »

Hi Life????

Hope you are well. I'm in a very similar situation to you except I do not instruct. I finished Nov 2011, I realise it has only been 6 months since I finished but I feel exactly the same and am even looking at going back to college and finishing off a degree.

I started training in 2008, so it took 3 years to get to this point. However I think you are very lucky to be even instucting;).

The job market is absolutely terrible at the moement not just for aviation too.

We are kind of left in this awkward situation with regards any kind of employment and in order to stand any kind of chance of progressing with a piloting career we will have to "fork out" again for type ratings, line training etc. Some of the prices for these schemes are through the roof, almost paying for you entire training over again.

I am very reluctant to put any more money into it at all, even an instructor's rating as I'm afraid I'll be down in funds again and with no job. Mate I even thought about doing cabin-crew but after a few weeks I decided it's just not for me.

I know it's not very comforting but there is a awful amount of people like us in the exact same position.

I'm at the mid point if training but from what I hear when talking to anybody it seems that unless you have the 30k for a TR you can be left high and dry. I really think it is something schools should make clear before you start. That you pay them their money and then must pay your own training costs at the end. At least people would have a full picture instead of ending up stuck between a rock and a hard place. For the "entry level" pilot commitments are a no no and I think I have seen working/former pilots express that opinion here before. For the 1st few years you have to roll with the punches and if you have family etc you must consider them before you start on the road.

Seeing people such as yourselves kind of scares me as I may be in the same boat after the summer.....I dont want to be crowing but I think I can beg borrow of steal the money for a TR, whether that will help me or not I dont know....I hope.

If I was to offer my 2 pence on the situation life?? I would say that if you want an airline job you should stick with the flying. Every hour is a tick on your CV. If you leave the instructing job you will more or less abandon any hope of picking up an airline job.

Cactus466 · 14-05-2012 12:57pm

Hi,

First of all apologies to "Life????", I not trying to steal your thread or anything. I've just being thinking about the same idea for the last few weeks and when I saw the thread I though I would add to it. Hope that's ok.

I would say if you have experience instructing, definitely stick with it as you would be a lot more attractive to any potential employer, instructing job or otherwise, compared to any new guy/girl finished their training.

Hi Suits, thanks for the reply. I was aware before I started my flying that I may have to fund type-ratings etc. However buying a TR after training with no job offer is a serious risk in my opinion. Yes you might push yourself up the list as regards new cadets but it in no way means that you will get a job. If you do, that's great and I'm happy for you.;)

The problem is relatively new people all have the same idea, either go instructing or fund a TR with Line Training and hopefully you might get something. I know there are schemes with "guaranteed" employment contracts with some of these packages but I suspect these are going to get more and more popular. I don't particularly agree with these schemes myself but it seems to be here to stay.

The Ryanair ship has seemed to have sailed and you would be very lucky to get a call at this stage as there is a rumour going around of 7000 applications in their system. But maybe you might get lucky;)

I'm not trying to be all "doom and gloom" here but we all have the same plan unfortunately.

davepatr07 · 14-05-2012 1:07pm

Hi there,

I was reading your post and was thinking if you would consider applying to Aer Arann or some of the regional UK carriers for work? I have 2 friends who have done the flight training in Florida. One of the friends did their twin engine rating in Waterford and continued with the SIMTECH course (ATR training). He is now flying with Aer Lingus Regional/Aer Arann as is the other friend. Mind you it did take him a while to get where he wanted but he has gotten there in the end. Have you got a twin engine rating?

Suits · 14-05-2012 1:53pm

Cactus466 wrote: »

Hi,
Hi Suits, thanks for the reply. I was aware before I started my flying that I may have to fund type-ratings etc. However buying a TR after training with no job offer is a serious risk in my opinion. Yes you might push yourself up the list as regards new cadets but it in no way means that you will get a job. If you do, that's great and I'm happy for you.;)

The problem is relatively new people all have the same idea, either go instructing or fund a TR with Line Training and hopefully you might get something. I know there are schemes with "guaranteed" employment contracts with some of these packages but I suspect these are going to get more and more popular. I don't particularly agree with these schemes myself but it seems to be here to stay.

The Ryanair ship has seemed to have sailed and you would be very lucky to get a call at this stage as there is a rumour going around of 7000 applications in their system. But maybe you might get lucky;)

I'm not trying to be all "doom and gloom" here but we all have the same plan unfortunately.

I wasnt suggesting buying a type rating. I was suggesting that those who can hand Ryanair/ Aer Arran etc the few thousand quid were the ones who could get jobs, but as most dont have the money there in lay the pit-fall. I wouldnt be inclined to buy a type rating independently as that is a bit of a punt and an expensive one at that.
Cadet schemes seem to be somewhat of a flash fire. I know they work ok for Cityjet, Flybe and Easyjet, but they have pit-falls that are sometimes deeper than those involved in just going your own way. The Aer Lingus cadetship took a while to catch fire and had many secret doors and 2 way mirrors about it, and although I havent heard much about it in a few months what I did hear a while back was that it wasnt going to plan and the airline may not throw good money after bad and have another one. But that was just an opinion. The reality is that these schemes can leave a fATPL more trapped than if they went their own way and they find themselves not only in debt to the bank but in debt to the airline too and that doesnt leave them much wiggle room. If an airline offered you a job for 20e and a bag of tayto a year you could say no and tell them where to stick it, but a cadet will find they are contracted and only get to choose if the tayto are Cheese and Onion or Smokey Bacon. Or they may be put in a holding pool to wait for a few months with no job, no income and shackled to the airline...just waiting.

Ryanair is unpredictable I think. Word on street a few months back was that IALPA was putting together a crack team of pilots within the airline to try and get something done and that there might be a shove. The upshot of that would be if they succeeded terms would be better for all, if they failed there would be a cleaning of house and new right seats opening up. It remains to be seen I suppose.

Lot of people I have spoken to tell me that my age is an advantage as I am only in my very early 20s and will hopefully all going to plan have my fATPL before I'm 22. People seem to think that will help me...but I'm not going to stick my eggs in that basket just yet.:rolleyes:

globemaster1986 · 14-05-2012 11:46pm

I do not really agree with paying for the TR but if you have to and can afford it, may aswell cos someone else will. That is when there is a job at the end of it! Lots of these TR and Line training packages seem to be a complete waste as most airlines want 500 or 1000 hrs on type, so you shell out 30/40k and don't have the minimum hrs the airlines are looking for.

I don't think airlines like the guys with fATPL still in their teens, feedback I have got is mid to late twenties. I know 2 guys who were called for interview by Ryanair recently, both mid-twenties (26 and 27) and both doing their TR now

Suits · 15-05-2012 1:40pm

globemaster1986 wrote: »

I don't think airlines like the guys with fATPL still in their teens, feedback I have got is mid to late twenties. I know 2 guys who were called for interview by Ryanair recently, both mid-twenties (26 and 27) and both doing their TR now

Feedback I got from Aer Lingus(under the pretense they were hiring Irish pilots with fATPLs), Aer Arran and in the absence of Ryanair IALPA at the Flyer Exhibition was that 21-35 was the ballpark figure they look for. However all seemed to indicate that early 20s had to display a level of maturity that fitted the commercial airline pilot bracket. I know plenty of 28 year olds who are less mature than people my age anyhow! Above a certain age I think assuming being older makes you more mature shows a lack of maturity on the part of the HR people.

xflyer · 15-05-2012 2:39pm

Above a certain age I think assuming being older makes you more mature shows a lack of maturity on the part of the HR people.

LOL, comments like that betray your relative immaturity. No offence meant!

In due course you'll realise that.

You're right of course, age is not the best measure of maturity but it's a good one for all that. I knew a 19 year old who could have passed for 29. But an immature 28 year old will be spotted easily by HR as will a mature 20 year old. It is after all their job.

But there are lots of other factors. From my own experience picking suitable pilots can be more of an art than a science.

Suits · 15-05-2012 3:13pm

xflyer wrote: »

LOL, comments like that betray your relative immaturity. No offence meant!

In due course you'll realise that.

You're right of course, age is not the best measure of maturity but it's a good one for all that. I knew a 19 year old who could have passed for 29. But an immature 28 year old will be spotted easily by HR as will a mature 20 year old. It is after all their job.

But there are lots of other factors. From my own experience picking suitable pilots can be more of an art than a science.

The follies of men's youth are in glorious retrospect.....or retrospect glorious......:D

The point I am making is that saying "oh we dont hire below the age of 25 as we want mature pilots" is a narrow way to looking at recruitment. In this climate especially I think young people are gaining life experience and life lessons that those who left school during the 'Tiger didnt gain, and that brings with it a certain amount of maturity. A 20 year old now who scrapped money together to train may be a lot more grounded and clued in than someone who went to the drive through window at AIB and got a 100k meal with a strawberry shake shake!:P .
That's just an example of how it could happen. I'm not saying it's the case across the board. Although some of what I hear suggests it is with some new FOs from the naughties!;)

globemaster1986 · 15-05-2012 4:45pm

Suits wrote: »

The follies of men's youth are in glorious retrospect.....or retrospect glorious......:D

The point I am making is that saying "oh we dont hire below the age of 25 as we want mature pilots" is a narrow way to looking at recruitment. In this climate especially I think young people are gaining life experience and life lessons that those who left school during the 'Tiger didnt gain, and that brings with it a certain amount of maturity. A 20 year old now who scrapped money together to train may be a lot more grounded and clued in than someone who went to the drive through window at AIB and got a 100k meal with a strawberry shake shake!:P .
That's just an example of how it could happen. I'm not saying it's the case across the board. Although some of what I hear suggests it is with some new FOs from the naughties!;)

I wasn't saying that airlines say any such thing, but aecdotal evidence suggests mid twenties is round about what they look for. You are of course correct about spotting immaturity among older candidates too but this can usually only be done at interview. We all know airlines are being inundated with applications and age may be one of the criteria used to whittle down the applicants. Just speculation of course but as I say, anecdotal evidence seems to suggest mid-twenties kinda guys do better. I'm not just basing this on the 2 guys I know of recently but others/gossip on PPRuNe etc, not exactly scientific but it's all we have;)

donkey balls · 15-05-2012 6:59pm

In this day and age anyone that thinks they will get a job after finishing there training(not including MCC/TR) with an airline needs to get there head checked,Most airlines will require the cadet to fund the TR them selves at the moment FR seem to be the only airline hiring.
Although I heard from a good source that a certain Irish airline was refusing to take on any Irish applicants due to some crew wanting to set up some form of union,And the other rumour was not to hire anyone over 30 years of age and that they could bring the hiring process in house rather than two of the companies they use at the moment.
Lads it's a pain in the arse waiting around to be called even for an interview, Iv'e been waiting well over a year to get a job with a company I do work for on a pt basis and one of my mates finished his training last oct and is still waiting to get a call.

Suits · 15-05-2012 9:31pm

donkey balls wrote: »

In this day and age anyone that thinks they will get a job after finishing there training(not including MCC/TR) with an airline needs to get there head checked,Most airlines will require the cadet to fund the TR them selves at the moment FR seem to be the only airline hiring.
Although I heard from a good source that a certain Irish airline was refusing to take on any Irish applicants due to some crew wanting to set up some form of union,And the other rumour was not to hire anyone over 30 years of age and that they could bring the hiring process in house rather than two of the companies they use at the moment.
Lads it's a pain in the arse waiting around to be called even for an interview, Iv'e been waiting well over a year to get a job with a company I do work for on a pt basis and one of my mates finished his training last oct and is still waiting to get a call.

Aer Arran seem to have a policy of selling you a TR on the "chance" that you may get a job with them if the spot opens. It's similar to the Easyjet sponsored scheme in a way except Easy do it from PPL level.

I agree though that if you want a job you have to cough up 30k

Xpro · 16-05-2012 8:31am

Ryanair is the only airline hiring but also the word on the street is that they are not taking irish onboard, mostly foreign pilots.

wonder why is that?

Cactus466 · 16-05-2012 10:40am

You can take your pick from below as to why there is a recruitment ban. All rumour of course.

1) Too many Irish and English crews are requesting home bases in their native lands. This apparently is a massive headache for ops and crewing at Ryanair as this would involve a bit of investment on their part i.e putting Irish pilots in Ireland and Italian pilots in Italy. Easier to stick them where ever they want. I heard a figure last week around 110 Fo's looking for a Dublin base at the moement.

2) In the last year there has been a real push by REPA to get union recognition, improve pay, contracts etc. This push has been started by mainly Irish and English crews (English speaking). Management apparently said "right no more Irish crews" as they are causing too much problems. There getting the IAA into it as well and as you know there is no current union for pilots at the moement in Ryanair so if they actually got one it would be interesting to see what happens.

3) Lot of expansion into Eastern Europe at the moement. Possibly they prefer Eastern Europe pilots as they would be based there and less likely to be complaining about not getting their chosen base. (I'm not to sure about this one myself but it's floating around). There is also the view that there is too many Irish crews at present and they want a broader mix say from Spain and Italy so that they don't get an overall majority.

Anyways they are just some of the rumours, I'm sure there are many others. Having said that there was apparently a few Irish who had interviews a few weeks back from a certain school in Cork so you can see some of the above may be "Hogwash"

Going back to topic, if you finished training there seems to be three options. Instruct, Ryanair or Pay to Fly (Eaglejet etc):(

Suits · 16-05-2012 1:37pm

Cactus466 wrote: »

You can take your pick from below as to why there is a recruitment ban. All rumour of course.

1) Too many Irish and English crews are requesting home bases in their native lands. This apparently is a massive headache for ops and crewing at Ryanair as this would involve a bit of investment on their part i.e putting Irish pilots in Ireland and Italian pilots in Italy. Easier to stick them where ever they want. I heard a figure last week around 110 Fo's looking for a Dublin base at the moement.

2) In the last year there has been a real push by REPA to get union recognition, improve pay, contracts etc. This push has been started by mainly Irish and English crews (English speaking). Management apparently said "right no more Irish crews" as they are causing too much problems. There getting the IAA into it as well and as you know there is no current union for pilots at the moement in Ryanair so if they actually got one it would be interesting to see what happens.

3) Lot of expansion into Eastern Europe at the moement. Possibly they prefer Eastern Europe pilots as they would be based there and less likely to be complaining about not getting their chosen base. (I'm not to sure about this one myself but it's floating around). There is also the view that there is too many Irish crews at present and they want a broader mix say from Spain and Italy so that they don't get an overall majority.

Anyways they are just some of the rumours, I'm sure there are many others. Having said that there was apparently a few Irish who had interviews a few weeks back from a certain school in Cork so you can see some of the above may be "Hogwash"

Going back to topic, if you finished training there seems to be three options. Instruct, Ryanair or Pay to Fly (Eaglejet etc):(

Option 2 is the one I've heard the most about. Looking at your last comment I can say it seems(and I cant back this up) that some of the schools in Ireland(one in the dublin area and the other in the cork area) have the ear of certain people in Ryanair(former students in high places) and get their graduates a better chance of interview. That could of course be totally wrong but I've heard it more than once.
Ryanair dont seem too keen at present on the pilot factory produce.

If it became common knowledge that Ryanair were not hiring Irish on the basis of nationality would that not be really dogey from a legal standpoint?(yes I do realised this is Ryanair)

xflyer · 16-05-2012 3:06pm

can say it seems(and I cant back this up) that some of the schools in Ireland(one in the dublin area and the other in the cork area) have the ear of certain people in Ryanair(former students in high places) and get their graduates a better chance of interview.

It's true to some extent. But it can work against you too. It's not so much pull as getting a good word. A less than overwhelming reference will kill any chances someone might have. So if you're a dead loss, they will be told. They're not going to lie to get one of their students in the door.

I have given a reference to Ryanair about an applicant. The interviewer knew me which helped. But at the end of the day it was only one positive in list of positives for the guy. He's on his way to being a Captain now.

No one thing will get you in the door.

Suits · 16-05-2012 3:23pm

xflyer wrote: »

It's true to some extent. But it can work against you too. It's not so much pull as getting a good word. A less than overwhelming reference will kill any chances someone might have. So if you're a dead loss, they will be told. They're not going to lie to get one of their students in the door.

I have given a reference to Ryanair about an applicant. The interviewer knew me which helped. But at the end of the day it was only one positive in list of positives for the guy. He's on his way to being a Captain now.

No one thing will get you in the door.

I guess that is a good point. However would someone not be more inclined to say nothing if they cant say anything nice, rather than "oh yeh he's awful....we taught him everything he knows.."

GoGoGadget · 16-05-2012 5:25pm

Suits wrote: »

I guess that is a good point. However would someone not be more inclined to say nothing if they cant say anything nice, rather than "oh yeh he's awful....we taught him everything he knows.."

Looking back myself and I think for most people you would know if you're going to get a shining reference or a bad one so you carefully choose who to nominate as your referees.

Even if it has to be from your last employer and you didn't leave on good terms just pick someone (managerial) that you got along with to provide one on the QT.

Employers now can be very careful about providing shining references so you'll find that some only state the dates employees worked and that they were punctual etc. Reason being that there was a series of lawsuits in the states when the new employer found out that Jimmy wasn't a whizz on computers as stated on the reference by the old employer!

Also the good HR people (if there is such a thing...

) will generally call an old employer rather than ask for a letter as you get a more honest response when they're put on the spot and silence in these cases speak volumes!!!

donkey balls · 16-05-2012 6:10pm

For legal reasons a company can only state an employee start and finish date along with duties they carried out as per their contract,So you could have two employees both start the same date and leave on the same date one could have been an utter lazy fook and get fired,The other a good worker time keeper etc and yet a company would still give the same reason.
As for cactus466 post I also heard the exact same thing that he posted from a crew member.

xflyer · 16-05-2012 10:08pm

Yes if we're talking about an official reference on paper but over the phone or personally it was different. When I did my Instructor's course, it was made explicit that they decided early on who was suitable to join the Instructor Corps of the school. There were three of us on the course. Make of that that what you will. But two of us were obvious shoe ins. The third guy hadn't a chance.

Phone references are the best way of getting the truth. Take my word for it.

One of the big issues with pilots is the whether the face fits. What we all want to know is whether we'd be happy to trust that guy beside us not to kill us all. Sometimes it's hard to define. Sometimes it's not.

A really good pilot is often harder to find than you would think. There's a combination of factors but you always know it when you see it.

am i mad

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