shaky reception

eternal

Does the weather affect Saorview reception? Mine is very dodgy tonight. I am using an indoor aeriel

Kristopherus

Usually No. Not the wind anyway. Some funny atmospheric conditions can affect all digital signals, but this is generally a rare enough occurance.

The Cush

eternal wrote: »

Does the weather affect Saorview reception? Mine is very dodgy tonight. I am using an indoor aeriel

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051977

Also an indoor aerial can be prone to interference, Saorview FAQ (section 8.2)

eternal

Ok cheers.

zg3409

A dodgy picture means a weak signal. Try moving the aerial and or TV to another room.

If it is dodgy now, it will continue to be dodgy into the future unless you take steps. RTENL recommend a rooftop aerial.

eternal

zg3409 wrote: »

A dodgy picture means a weak signal. Try moving the aerial and or TV to another room.

If it is dodgy now, it will continue to be dodgy into the future unless you take steps. RTENL recommend a rooftop aerial.

I was thinking of getting free to air. There is a dish here but Im not connected to it.

The Cush

eternal wrote: »

I was thinking of getting free to air. There is a dish here but Im not connected to it.

A dish won't get you the Irish channels FTA, Sky subscription and receiver required. An aerial is required for the Saorview channels.

Ronnie Raygun

You won't get the Irish channels on free to air satellite from 28 degrees east (the satellite position the UK channels are at).

eternal

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

You won't get the Irish channels on free to air satellite from 28 degrees east (the satellite position the UK channels are at).

I have a saorview tv. Im not pushed about the Free to air anyway. Just the reception is bothering me. I laugh at the idea of changing rooms. I aint in no mansion.

Kristopherus

Move you indoor aerial near a window on the side of the house facing the mast. I have an indoor aerial and if I do as described, the reception is perfect. If I move it to the opposite side of the house, I get a blue screen, and I aint got no mansion either:).

foggy_lad

eternal wrote: »

Does the weather affect Saorview reception? Mine is very dodgy tonight. I am using an indoor aeriel

By shaky do you mean it is the picture freezing for a second every so often then catching up until it happens again? mine is doing this now and i have changed nothing since the weekend when it was a perfect reception, Maybe there is some tweaking going on with the signal?

eternal

foggy_lad wrote: »

eternal wrote: »

Does the weather affect Saorview reception? Mine is very dodgy tonight. I am using an indoor aeriel

By shaky do you mean it is the picture freezing for a second every so often then catching up until it happens again? mine is doing this now and i have changed nothing since the weekend when it was a perfect reception, Maybe there is some tweaking going on with the signal?

Kind of yeah. Like going out of signal and back again. Pausing and going numb then reasserting itself. Btw the aeriel is facing the window nearest the mast!

zg3409

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe there is some tweaking going on with the signal?

There is nothing wrong with the signal. This is a classic case of a weak signal. If the signal was stronger this would need be a problem. If you have a proper rooftop aerial and if it was professionally installed this should not be a problem.

Your current setup seems to be unreliable.

eternal

zg3409 wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe there is some tweaking going on with the signal?

There is nothing wrong with the signal. This is a classic case of a weak signal. If the signal was stronger this would need be a problem. If you have a proper rooftop aerial and if it was professionally installed this should not be a problem.

Your current setup seems to be unreliable.

This is true, but Im renting and cant afford anything else at the moment. It does seem to get worse when its windy though.

eternal

For everyones's information, the weather does affect Saorview. I have no reception for the match. Fml

hot buttered scones

My reception from Spur Hill (ch. 45) has been dodgy all day, with very poor signal quality, picture breakup etc. on two sets. Signal strength is varying from 60% to 100%, with sudden drops to 0%. Signal quality is drifting constantly from 25% to 0%. Normally I get around 100% strength and 80 - 95% quality.

eternal

I wouldn't understand about the percentages but mine is pretty bad. I'll hav to go out to watch the match or else maybe look at it online. Least I know I'm not the only one suffering.
Who said Saorview was the way forward.

Peter Rhea

Are you still using the indoor aerial? Did you not read or understand the previous replies to this thread?

And what kind of weather conditions do you think are affecting your signal?

eternal

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Are you still using the indoor aerial? Did you not read or understand the previous replies to this thread?

And what kind of weather conditions do you think are affecting your signal?

Calm down. It is very stormy here.

hot buttered scones

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Are you still using the indoor aerial? Did you not read or understand the previous replies to this thread?

And what kind of weather conditions do you think are affecting your signal?

I have an aerial in the attic. And its lashing rain and very windy here. Whats your problem? The guy asked a reasonable question. No need for the snotty attitude.

hot buttered scones

eternal wrote: »

I wouldn't understand about the percentages but mine is pretty bad. I'll hav to go out to watch the match or else maybe look at it online. Least I know I'm not the only one suffering.
Who said Saorview was the way forward.

Well, i could never get a good analogue signal where i live, so Saorview is an improvement for me. I'm wondering if its the weather too though, because normally i get a pretty good signal with no interference, and steady too. Like I said in a previous post i have an aerial in the attic, not an indoor job, so with you being in the cork area as well i wonder is it the bad weather causing problems.

The Cush

eternal wrote: »

It is very stormy here.

Shouldn't be causing a problem for Saorview reception unless the aerial has fallen off the roof.

High pressure atmospheric conditions can affect reception with an inadequate aerial installation but that wouldn't be a problem today.

Peter Rhea

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Whats your problem? The guy asked a reasonable question. No need for the snotty attitude.

He asked the same question as OP in this thread & got plenty of reasonable answers too.

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Like I said in a previous post i have an aerial in the attic, not an indoor job

An attic aerial is no replacement for a decent outdoor installation. A poorly installed attic aerial will be no better than an 'indoor' type.

eternal

He is a she and also the OP.

Peter Rhea

I know you're the OP & yes I should have went with 'he/she' or 'they' even though you were previously referred to as 'the guy' . . .

hot buttered scones

eternal wrote: »

He is a she and also the OP.

The Cush wrote: »

Shouldn't be causing a problem for Saorview reception unless the aerial has fallen off the roof.

High pressure atmospheric conditions can affect reception with an inadequate aerial installation but that wouldn't be a problem today.

Yeah, i get that. I haven't had a chance to check my aerial today, but there is no reason for it to have changed any. And like I said, I had perfect reception before today. It could be just a coincidence that myself and the OP are both in the same area, and with the monsoon outside its easy to blame the weather. I'm not saying my aerial installation is perfect, but like I said I was getting a really good signal and now I'm not, and nothing has changed with my setup so........

eternal

Deffo the weather.

Ronnie Raygun

hot buttered scones wrote: »

... but like I said I was getting a really good signal and now I'm not, and nothing has changed with my setup so........

And this "really good signal" was measured with professional equipment? How was your BER reading?

eternal wrote: »

Deffo the weather.

Yeah, those electromagnetic waves don't like a bit of wind ...

Useful article on attic aerials here, if anyone wants to have a go at making the most of these installs rather than blaming problems on RTE/the weather/whatever.

The Cush

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I'm not saying my aerial installation is perfect, but like I said I was getting a really good signal and now I'm not, and nothing has changed with my setup so........

Probably demonstrates how close to the "digital cliff" (low signal quality) your reception is with the attic aerial if it falls over in a bit of wet weather. Depending on Saorview signal strength/quality at your location maybe a different attic aerial or external aerial might improve reception in all weathers.

eternal wrote: »

Deffo the weather.

Deffo your indoor aerial. Same answer above applies.

hot buttered scones

The Cush wrote: »

Probably demonstrates how close to the "digital cliff" (low signal quality) your reception is with the attic aerial if it falls over in a bit of wet weather. Depending on Saorview signal strength/quality at your location maybe a different attic aerial or external aerial might improve reception in all weathers.





Deffo your indoor aerial. Same answer above applies.

OK. Thanks for that explanation. That makes sense, seeing as how my analogue signal is rubbish. I assumed that because my tv's said i was getting very high signal quality and strength that my setup was fine, but it appears perhaps that it is not robust enough. If i understand you correctly, with digital its an all or nothing situation - is that right?

zg3409

Not exactly.

There is a maximum level above which your box may act strangely, then there is a minimum signal where it will display fine without showing any digital break up.

However at the point where it starts to break up, and the point where it totally freezes or says no signal are very close. If your signal is on the border line the picture can go from perfect to no signal over and over again.

For digital they recommend a signal 20dB above the "cliff". In other words the minimum acceptable signal should be 100 times stronger than the weakest acceptable signal. In this way if the signal does drop slightly for any reason (say leaves on the trees) then the TV will continue to work correctly.

If you had proper test equipment you could quickly measure the level of the signal with different setups and decide on the best solution. By just using the inbuilt meter in the box is not ideal.

I have an attenuator I can put in line. This drops the signal arriving and can simulate the worst case situation. It is not the best way, but it would give you an idea if you are on the edge. If the TV works OK with this in line then it should be OK all the time.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Aerial-Attenuator-Variable-0-20Db-DC-Pass-F-Type-/190493108736

hot buttered scones

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

And this "really good signal" was measured with professional equipment? How was your BER reading?



Yeah, those electromagnetic waves don't like a bit of wind ...

Useful article on attic aerials here, if anyone wants to have a go at making the most of these installs rather than blaming problems on RTE/the weather/whatever.

Seriously wtf.....less of the condescension please. Not all of us have an indepth knowledge of telecoms engineering and the physics behind wave propagation. Not being a professional aerial installer I don't have professional equipment so I couldn't tell you what the bit error rate was. I have digital signal strength meter, so I used that to align the aerial (i.e. Moved aerial until most leds were lit up), went to the tv and tuned it in. Quality and strength of signal quoted earlier were indicated by the receivers own strength and quality meters. These were high. I read the post by someone from Cork experiencing problems with their signal, so being in Cork, I checked my signal, the quality of which had dipped dramatically (by checked I mean i went to manual tuning on both my sets put in channel 45, waited until the strength and quality indicators gave a reading and noted the value). Knowing that the propagation of e/m waves is uneffected by wind, but being unable to ignore the weather conditions outside, i began to wonder why two people in the same location might be suffering from sudden signal loss. It could be either the weather, two poor installs, problems with spur hill, a combination of some or all of these or possibly just a coincidence. Having a naturally enquiring mind, I choose to casually examine all the issues. Perhaps more people from Cork would report the same problems, or maybe someone with more knowledge could point me in the right direction. Of course what I didn't expect was to be spoken down too and mocked for reporting issues with my signal and wondering was it related to any of the issues I have already stated above

hot buttered scones

zg3409 wrote: »

Not exactly.

There is a maximum level above which your box may act strangely, then there is a minimum signal where it will display fine without showing any digital break up.

However at the point where it starts to break up, and the point where it totally freezes or says no signal are very close. If your signal is on the border line the picture can go from perfect to no signal over and over again.

For digital they recommend a signal 20dB above the "cliff". In other words the minimum acceptable signal should be 100 times stronger than the weakest acceptable signal. In this way if the signal does drop slightly for any reason (say leaves on the trees) then the TV will continue to work correctly.

If you had proper test equipment you could quickly measure the level of the signal with different setups and decide on the best solution. By just using the inbuilt meter in the box is not ideal.

I have an attenuator I can put in line. This drops the signal arriving and can simulate the worst case situation. It is not the best way, but it would give you an idea if you are on the edge. If the TV works OK with this in line then it should be OK all the time.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Aerial-Attenuator-Variable-0-20Db-DC-Pass-F-Type-/190493108736

Cheers. I might get one of those. I am just starting out with all this and find it all very interesting. I've done a bit of reading online etc. but not much, so any info and help is appreciated.

Peter Rhea

hot buttered scones wrote: »

That makes sense, seeing as how my analogue signal is rubbish. . .

It's reckoned that the Saorview signal with 1/5 of the power of analogue can achieve the same coverage.

Spur Hill Saorview is actually transmitted with 5 times the power of analogue, so in theory is equal to an analogue transmitter with 25 times the power of the current one.

SalteeDog

@Scones - I suspect there is something amiss with your install. Going from 90% quality to 0 sounds suspicious. In my experience (also with an attic install and generally 85% to 90% quality) you should not be seeing fluctuations like you have. Before you do anything drastic, check all your connections. If you are using unscreened wallplates, get rid of those. Also use good cable between your wall connection and your TV/box. Good cabling and connections can make quite a bit of difference.

rebeve

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Cheers. I might get one of those. I am just starting out with all this and find it all very interesting. I've done a bit of reading online etc. but not much, so any info and help is appreciated.

Im in Cork City facing spur hill .Reception shocking today .I have had 70% signal and 100% quality up until now .

eternal

Mine is fine today.

Ronnie Raygun

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Spur Hill Saorview is actually transmitted with 5 times the power of analogue, so in theory is equal to an analogue transmitter with 25 times the power of the current one.

Yes, no point using analogue as a reference wrt Spur Hill, Three Rock or Woodcock Hill. The Saorview output is in a different league.

hot buttered scones

SalteeDog wrote: »

@Scones - I suspect there is something amiss with your install. Going from 90% quality to 0 sounds suspicious. In my experience (also with an attic install and generally 85% to 90% quality) you should not be seeing fluctuations like you have. Before you do anything drastic, check all your connections. If you are using unscreened wallplates, get rid of those. Also use good cable between your wall connection and your TV/box. Good cabling and connections can make quite a bit of difference.

I have a cable running from the aerial into a sky box in the attic, and then an aerial running from the RF2 output of the Sky box directly to the TV in the bedroom. Taking the Sky box out of the loop made no difference. Checked all the connections etc. and everything seemed ok, and made no difference. Everything has improved now though. Seems strange though that there's 3 of us now reported problems with Spur Hill.
I'm going with this deduction - my setup is sufficient for a "good" signal most of the time. However, being an amateur affair, the very heavy rainfall in Cork this week led to some attenuation or fading of signal strength, which led to my signal falling off the edge of the "digital cliff". More heavy rain forecast I think, so I'll keep an eye on things.

zg3409

hot buttered scones wrote: »

very heavy rainfall in Cork this week led to some attenuation or fading of signal strength, which led to my signal falling off the edge of the "digital cliff". More heavy rain forecast I think, so I'll keep an eye on things.

If your aerial is in the attic, and if you have concrete rooftiles, then these can absorb water. A good demostration is to put a concrete tile in a bucket of water and compare the weight difference.

So a roof full of soaking wet concrete tiles can have more of an effect, than say an outdoor aerial on a rainy day. So as such rain can have a larger effect, if your signal is passing through concrete roof tiles.

hot buttered scones

zg3409 wrote: »

If your aerial is in the attic, and if you have concrete rooftiles, then these can absorb water. A good demostration is to put a concrete tile in a bucket of water and compare the weight difference.

So a roof full of soaking wet concrete tiles can have more of an effect, than say an outdoor aerial on a rainy day. So as such rain can have a larger effect, if your signal is passing through concrete roof tiles.

I had been thinking along those lines -although not quite. I had been thinking maybe the rain running off the roof was causing problems, but your explanation definitely makes more sense. And it was bucketing down here.
So I'll have to put up with this, unless I'm prepared to get an aerial installed on the roof.

lawhec

Normal Irish weather will have no noticeable effect on UHF terrestrial reception other than periods of tropospheric induction which causes signals well over the horizon to be received either at noticeable levels or stronger than usual. Rain fall will not normally have a drastic effect on TV reception though it can happen in very isolated cases dependent on a set of circumstances at the time e.g. a couple of years ago I seen some very weak reception of RTÉ2 from Carin Hill at a farm in the Sperrins some 110km in a straight line with no line of sight being wiped out completely for about 90 seconds by a sudden heavy rain shower which returned shortly after the rain eased off. Wind has no effect other than the aerial possibly moving.

With indoor aerials, standing water e.g. rain in the brickwork of the wall or on a window, could reduce the wanted signal. If you're right on the cliff edge of reception, a loss of only 1-2db might be enough for reception to start playing up especially as normal reception will slightly fluctuate constantly. Another problem could be a tree(s) between your aerial and the transmitter, especially on the ground floor. Trying to get reception of any FM Radio or TV signal blocked by trees is almost always a problem due to absorption of moisture particularly for evergreens, and the radiowaves bouncing in among the branches which can cause peaks and nulls at very short distances. Especially at this time of year the leaves should be at full bloom and stormy weather will see the trees accumulate moisture which will kill off more of the wanted signal, and the wind moving the branches will constantly cause problems with the signal at the aerial fluctuating like mad - even a small breeze causes these problems. The only solution is to get the aerial above the tree line.

The Saorview transmission network is designed for reception with a fixed, outdoor roof top aerial. Using an attic or indoor aerial will almost always result in a weaker signal being received. Most attics in recent builds kill radio & TV reception dead thanks to insulation mounted below roof tiles, even those without can reduce the signal to between half to 1/100th of the signal if there were no roof elements with the aerial in the same position. If you are not using an aerial outdoors on the roof top and your reception is dodgy, you need to improve it yourself. Don't blame RTÉNL.

Mr Keek

Since moving all our TV's to Saorview, we're finding that our neighbours lawnmower plays f*ck with out signal. Makes it unnwatchable, I would have missed most of the Dutch Vs Portugal game today but I was able to switch to Freesat and had no problems.

All the other lawnmowers in the area are fine, the auld heap of crap that he uses though writes off our signal completly.

Luckily enough, he's a lazy fecker so the lawn only get a mowed once a month!

He's got a petrol mower, but I'm assuming it something electrical in his ignition and the lawnmower blades send the signal all around the shop or something like that. If I miss something important I'm gonna creep into his shed with a sledge hammer and do a Thor job on it.....I'll steal his dog too!!

Ronnie Raygun

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Seems strange though that there's 3 of us now reported problems with Spur Hill.

Spur hill serves a heavily populated area & there would generally be more usage of indoor aerials in the cities, so there's always a good chance you'll get others replying with similar problems.

If I were to start a completely invented "problems with Three Rock reception, what are RTE playing at" thread, I guarantee I'd get a similar response. There are just more people in Dublin & Cork & they're more likely to have inadequate aerial setups.

hot buttered scones

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Spur hill serves a heavily populated area & there would generally be more usage of indoor aerials in the cities, so there's always a good chance you'll get others replying with similar problems.

If I were to start a completely invented "problems with Three Rock reception, what are RTE playing at" thread, I guarantee I'd get a similar response. There are just more people in Dublin & Cork & they're more likely to have inadequate aerial setups.

Fair point. I'm still blaming the weather though. My setup is adequate - not perfect, but I can receive the Saorview service from Spur Hill with no interference, pixellation etc. It died the other day in very very heavy rain. It more than likely died due to the fact its not an adequate installation for monsoons! I don't rely on Saorview anyway, so I wasn't irked, just interested. You could also argue that if the very very heavy rain did effect the signal, the fact that it occured in a heavily populated area would also lead to more complaints than if the very very heavy rain occured in a sparsely populated area.
Anyway, would you know how come I can receive analogue channels from Collins Barracks, but no Saorview. I changed my aerial from horizontal to vertical, and tried tuning in on channel 50, but no joy. I then did a full rescan, and picked up Spur Hill, but obviously it was breaking up all the time due the aerial orientation. I do live quite close to Collins Barracks. Looking around a neighbours and other local house it would appear most aerials are horizontal, mostly pointing to Spur Hill, with some pointing elsewhere (I'm assuming Mullaganish judging by the direction, but I wouldn't swear to it). A small percentage are vertical and pointing to the Barracks. For me the Barracks and Spur Hill are in the same direction, but I am living in a bit of a dip wrt the Barracks. By quite close I mean maybe 500m.

hot buttered scones

lawhec wrote: »

Normal Irish weather will have no noticeable effect on UHF terrestrial reception other than periods of tropospheric induction which causes signals well over the horizon to be received either at noticeable levels or stronger than usual. Rain fall will not normally have a drastic effect on TV reception though it can happen in very isolated cases dependent on a set of circumstances at the time e.g. a couple of years ago I seen some very weak reception of RTÉ2 from Carin Hill at a farm in the Sperrins some 110km in a straight line with no line of sight being wiped out completely for about 90 seconds by a sudden heavy rain shower which returned shortly after the rain eased off. Wind has no effect other than the aerial possibly moving.

With indoor aerials, standing water e.g. rain in the brickwork of the wall or on a window, could reduce the wanted signal. If you're right on the cliff edge of reception, a loss of only 1-2db might be enough for reception to start playing up especially as normal reception will slightly fluctuate constantly. Another problem could be a tree(s) between your aerial and the transmitter, especially on the ground floor. Trying to get reception of any FM Radio or TV signal blocked by trees is almost always a problem due to absorption of moisture particularly for evergreens, and the radiowaves bouncing in among the branches which can cause peaks and nulls at very short distances. Especially at this time of year the leaves should be at full bloom and stormy weather will see the trees accumulate moisture which will kill off more of the wanted signal, and the wind moving the branches will constantly cause problems with the signal at the aerial fluctuating like mad - even a small breeze causes these problems. The only solution is to get the aerial above the tree line.

The Saorview transmission network is designed for reception with a fixed, outdoor roof top aerial. Using an attic or indoor aerial will almost always result in a weaker signal being received. Most attics in recent builds kill radio & TV reception dead thanks to insulation mounted below roof tiles, even those without can reduce the signal to between half to 1/100th of the signal if there were no roof elements with the aerial in the same position. If you are not using an aerial outdoors on the roof top and your reception is dodgy, you need to improve it yourself. Don't blame RTÉNL.

Trees are a possibilty, I'm looking at the trees at the back of my house now, and my aerial isn't pointing in their direction. As for blaming the network, well, it doesn't hurt to ask! As for improving my setup, why do you think I'm on here reading posts, following links, an asking questions? Its interesting what you've said, I'm not getting up on the roof though. The service is fine for now, and the good weather some weeks back had no effect either, so I think I'll leave things be for now. If this bad reception in the rain proves to be a constant thing, then I'll look at getting a rooftop aerial.

eternal

Scones has hijacked my thread! I seriously need to get Freetoair cos mine is really bad lately.

Peter Rhea

You won't get any Irish channels with a satellite dish pointed at 28 degrees east (where the UK channels are), unless you pay Sky.

On satellite, free to air Irish channels are only available via Saorsat which is the last resort fill-in service for those who can't get Saorview, totally unnecessary in your case. You just need a decent terrestrial setup.

hot buttered scones

eternal wrote: »

Scones has hijacked my thread! I seriously need to get Freetoair cos mine is really bad lately.

Sorry!

lawhec

hot buttered scones wrote: »

As for blaming the network, well, it doesn't hurt to ask! As for improving my setup, why do you think I'm on here reading posts, following links, an asking questions?

It's just the fact that the network is designed for rooftop reception. In some countries their network is configured for portable/indoor reception, but not in Ireland.
Some people whom won't entertain the idea of anything other than a set of wabbit-ears for TV reception seem to be reluctant to accept that such methods of reception are inadequate and blame the broadcasters or transmission providers.

P.S. Trees to the side or back of the aerial could affect analogue reception in the form of ghosting, but I can't think how it would affect DTT reception unless the problem is very severe.

hot buttered scones

lawhec wrote: »

It's just the fact that the network is designed for rooftop reception. In some countries their network is configured for portable/indoor reception, but not in Ireland.
Some people whom won't entertain the idea of anything other than a set of wabbit-ears for TV reception seem to be reluctant to accept that such methods of reception are inadequate and blame the broadcasters or transmission providers.

P.S. Trees to the side or back of the aerial could affect analogue reception in the form of ghosting, but I can't think how it would affect DTT reception unless the problem is very severe.

I just like experimenting and tweaking things. I have things setup ok now but I'm always looking to make improvements, or test out different setups. I've been messing around all week with one of those diy aerials made from scraps of wood and copper wire. Got reception on ch 45 through a Playtv connected to a laptop with this thing balanced against the window. I'm happy enough to mess around, learning as I go. This weeks lesson - don't blame the network, and don't count on anything thats not on the roof.