Legal requirement for Insurance Cert??

The-Game

Was stopped by the Gardaì the other day and asked the usual questions, do I have my license and checking the discs in the window (all 3 of which are valid and correct)

He then asks do I have my insurance cert with me as its a legal requirement to have it in the car along with your license when driving.

Now I thought displaying the disc that comes from the insurance cert was all that was required but he was adamant when i questioned this that he was correct and its a "legal requirement" so I must produce it at the local station.

Has anyone else been hit with this and is it a new law or one I was just not aware of??

CiniO

I acutally don't know if it's legal requirement to carry it (I doubt it, but we can easily check it), but he definitely has right to request you to produce it at the local station within 10 days or something.

mickdw

first ive heard of iit. Wouldnt be a bad idea but I doubt he is correct.
Ar you certain you didnt misunderstand when he asked you to produce it?

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

Wouldnt be a bad idea but I doubt he is correct.

I'd say it would be bad idea.
What's the point in carrying lots of paperwork with you. It's 21st century, and there shouldn't be a need for any certificates.
Also discs on windscreen IMHO should be scrapped.

Tigger

You don't have to carry the cert you do have to produce at a station of yer choosing

dahamsta

Assuming the OP didn't misunderstand the Guard, they should be reported to the officer in charge of their station for not knowing the law they're supposed to be enforcing. It's Guards like that that give the rest of them a bad name.

Nissan doctor

You don't have to have the cert with you in the car, that's the point of having the disk for the window.

It seems a lot of Garda like to make up laws at the side of the road.

The-Game

dahamsta wrote: »

Assuming the OP didn't misunderstand the Guard, they should be reported to the officer in charge of their station for not knowing the law they're supposed to be enforcing. It's Guards like that that give the rest of them a bad name.

Nope, I thought maybe I had misheard so i asked him is he saying that I need to carry the actual paper cert at all times as well as having the disc displayed? To which he said yes you need the full cert and your driving license.

He was able to check my insurance details through his Pulse system which came up correct and he said that as I didn't have the cert i must produce, no problem doing so but don't fancy carrying the cert around every time I get in a car!

Esel

I have never heard that it was a requirement to carry the cert, but I always do. Folded small, it fits into my wallet no problem, and having it available if the Garda wants to see it removes the need for me to produce it in a station later.

2 stroke

I'm certain Garda was wrong or misunderstood, I keep all my insurance certs in a filing cabinet.

dahamsta

Similarity, I keep mine in the car to avoid a trip to produce, but that's not the point, that Guard was talking out their hat. There's no legal requirement to keep the cert in the car, only the licence. The Guard should know this, especially if they're doing traffic stops.

CoDy1

The disc doesn't have your name on it, only the Cert does. Its quiet reasonable for a garda to ask for it and def not illegal.

audidiesel

theres no requirement for you to carry the cert at all times in the car. the insurance disk only needs to be carried.

he is entitled to get you to produce the cert however at a garda station of your choice within 10 days. if you fail/refuse to do so a prosecution can be initiated against you for no insurance, no insurance displayed and failure to produce insurance.

the cert is a necessary proof of insurance and without it, it can be inferred that there is no insurance for the person driving.

shar01

Been trying to find it but a few months ago there was a story in the Evening Herald about some z list celeb who was fined for not producing insurance cert. IIRC, the guards can ask for the cert at the roadside.

CiniO

CoDy1 wrote: »

The disc doesn't have your name on it, only the Cert does. Its quiet reasonable for a garda to ask for it and def not illegal.

It's not illegal for the garda to ask for it, but it's illegal for the garda to request it on the spot there and them, provided it's not required to carry it.

CiniO

audidiesel wrote: »

theres no requirement for you to carry the cert at all times in the car. the insurance disk only needs to be carried.

Maybe that guard confussed it with foreign car.
He is entitled to request insurance cert and vehicle registration certificate on the spot if it's a foreign registered vehicle.

Bohrio

Just wondering, how can the guarda know you are legally covered to drive that car?

I dont know the legal requirements but imo, like it has been said, the cert doesnt display the name of the authorized driver/s so the guarda cant know if you allowed to drive the car or not (i mean covered by your insurance company).

It would be ok if guardi had a way of checking this type of things like they have in the uk (for tax, etc), ringing the insurance company is only possible during opening hours.

In other countries like, they dont have this type of problems as insurance is not fixed to a driver but to the car, but because of the way things are here you need to make sure the person driving the car is covered, and producing the insurance papers might be the only way... i think

slimjimmc

Bohrio wrote: »

Just wondering, how can the guarda know you are legally covered to drive that car?

I dont know the legal requirements but imo, like it has been said, the cert doesnt display the name of the authorized driver/s so the guarda cant know if you allowed to drive the car or not (i mean covered by your insurance company).

The cert most definitely does show your name and address of the insured driver(s), including the period of cover and the reg of the vehicle insured.

Bohrio wrote: »

It would be ok if guardi had a way of checking this type of things like they have in the uk (for tax, etc), ringing the insurance company is only possible during opening hours.

In other countries like, they dont have this type of problems as insurance is not fixed to a driver but to the car, but because of the way things are here you need to make sure the person driving the car is covered, and producing the insurance papers might be the only way... i think

hint hint...

The-Game wrote: »

He was able to check my insurance details through his Pulse system which came up correct

CiniO

Bohrio wrote: »

Just wondering, how can the guarda know you are legally covered to drive that car?

I dont know the legal requirements but imo, like it has been said, the cert doesnt display the name of the authorized driver/s so the guarda cant know if you allowed to drive the car or not (i mean covered by your insurance company).

It would be ok if guardi had a way of checking this type of things like they have in the uk (for tax, etc), ringing the insurance company is only possible during opening hours.

In other countries like, they dont have this type of problems as insurance is not fixed to a driver but to the car, but because of the way things are here you need to make sure the person driving the car is covered, and producing the insurance papers might be the only way... i think

I can see 3 solutions.
1. Scrap ridiculous Irish insurance system, and introduce the EU way where everyone is insured to drive a vehicle once it's insured, or
2. Create a system where guards would be able to check all insurance detail in their database, or,
3. Make it legal requirement to carry insurance cert.

I most favour the first option.

Anyway guards requesting documents from drivers just becuase it makes sense (not because it's legally required to be carried by drivers) is not a normal thing.

5500

Ive been asked specifically for the cert when stopped before even though all discs in the window are up to date. For the sake of less hassle I just throw a photocopy of the vlc,insurance cert and nct cert and the insurance cert in the glovebox incase Im ever asked again.

CiniO

Guys, we are dicsussing this issue since yesterday, but no one even bothered lookin up the regulations.
Unfortunately it looks like guard was absolutely grant to request insurance certificate there and then.

From Road Traffic Act 1961.

69.—(1) (a) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a mechanically propelled vehicle has been used in a public place on a particular occasion (including a case in which the member has himself observed the use) and that the actual user of the vehicle on that occasion was a particular person, the member may, at any time not later than one month after the occasion, demand of the person the production of either a certificate of insurance or a certificate of guarantee or a certificate of exemption in respect of the use of the vehicle by the person on the occasion and, if the person refuses or fails to produce any such certificate then and there, he shall, unless within ten days after the day on which the production was demanded he produces such certificate in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station named by the person at the time at which the production was demanded, be guilty of an offence.

So in short.
There is no obligation to carry your insurance certificate, but guard is allowed to request it. If you can't provide it on the spot, you have 10 days to produce it at the garda station.

They can request you to produce it within 10 days but cannot demand it on the spot. However the smart thing to do is just keep it in the glove box and produce it on the spot if needed and save the trouble of having to produce it.

The first thing I do when I renew my insurance is put the disc on the window and cert in the glove box.

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

So in short.
There is no obligation to carry your insurance certificate, but guard is allowed to request it. If you can't provide it on the spot, you have 10 days to produce it at the garda station.

Sounds about right.
To me it also sounds like a bored Gard passing a long day by throwing his weight around a bit and making life for others just that little bit more difficult for no other reason than his own amusement.
And it is well known that a Gard has to find something wrong if he wants to.
I was once done for not having the requisite number of safety pins and latex gloves in my first aid kit in Germany.
At least that way they don't have to deal with any nasty and possibly dangerous criminals.;)

dahamsta

CiniO wrote: »

Guys, we are dicsussing this issue since yesterday, but no one even bothered lookin up the regulations.

Did you bother reading the thread? Or even just the first post?

CiniO

dahamsta wrote: »

Did you bother reading the thread? Or even just the first post?

Yes I did.
As you can see, 7 posts (out of 25) in this thread are written by me.
What's the issue?

paddyland

And what happens if the car is stolen or broken into? Both of which have happened to me?

No, sorry, I am not carrying anything valuable like an official document around in the car with me. I'll produce it later on request.

Screw laws which are an ass.

dahamsta

CiniO wrote: »

Yes I did.
As you can see, 7 posts (out of 25) in this thread are written by me.
What's the issue?

"He then asks do I have my insurance cert with me as its a legal requirement to have it in the car along with your license when driving."

This is the entire point of the thread. Why are you clarifying something - that Gardaí are entitled to require you to produce, which no-one here has actually challenged in any real way - when it has absolutely nothing to do with that point? Why are you citing law that we all - obviously - already knew? Does it make you feel clever or something?

To reiterate, since you're obviously not getting it: The Guard was entitled to ask the OP to produce. He was NOT entitled to state that it's required to have it in the car. He was 100% wrong in that.

Bohrio

paddyland wrote: »

And what happens if the car is stolen or broken into? Both of which have happened to me?

No, sorry, I am not carrying anything valuable like an official document around in the car with me. I'll produce it later on request.

Screw laws which are an ass.

Not sure what is the problem here. Ireland is the only country, that i know off, where yo7u dont need to have your insurance cert with you at all yime, maybe uk is the same, not sure. what about the vehicle registration book? that has all your details too. Although you dont need to carry that with you in your car either... i dont know.. wouldnt be surprised tbh

CiniO

dahamsta wrote: »

"He then asks do I have my insurance cert with me as its a legal requirement to have it in the car along with your license when driving."

This is the entire point of the thread. Why are you clarifying something - that Gardaí are entitled to require you to produce, which no-one here has actually challenged in any real way - when it has absolutely nothing to do with that point? Why are you citing law that we all - obviously - already knew? Does it make you feel clever or something?

To reiterate, since you're obviously not getting it: The Guard was entitled to ask the OP to produce. He was NOT entitled to state that it's required to have it in the car. He was 100% wrong in that.

Where is this personal attack on my person coming from? Did I do anything to you?

Coming back to the subject.
I was of the impression, that guard can request you to produce a cert within 10 days in garda station. That seems to be what most people were saying here.
However accoring to the act I quoted, garda can request a cert there and then. If you don't have it with you, it's not an offence provided you produce it within 10 days.

But surely there is a difference between "garda being allowed to request to produce it within 10 days" and "garda being allowed to request it there and then".

Considering the above, I'll actually start carrying mine.

_Kaiser_

No real news here guys.. just another Garda who doesn't know the laws they're "enforcing"/was just using it as a means to boost his ego and inconvenience the OP seeing as the discs were all in order (I'd lean towards this myself seeing as they went through the trouble of checking it on the computer and had no joy there).
No doubt if the OP had the cert in the car, there'd have been something else wrong by the sound of it.

OP, just drop it in to the local station for the disinterested desk cop there to say "yep fair enough" and be done with it is my advice. Make sure that said desk cop updates the system to say you produced though and get his name/shoulder number (as they don't always manage to do even that much, meaning you get a summons). Of course, if they simply issued a receipt...

And yes, I'm sure all the high horse apologists will be along accusing me of "Garda bashing" but I'm not really - I just despise incompetence and abuse of authority and our boys n girls in blue give plenty of examples is all.

whomitconcerns

My understanding has always been that you need the full cert in the car. The disc in the window is just for a quick visual confirmation, but you need the rest of the cert page with you. I am pretty sure it says that on the cert...

dr.fuzzenstein

I seem to recall a post in a similar thread where a poster showed the cert by the roadside and was told he still has to bring it in.
Reason being that the Gard could not authenticate it there and then.
So there you have it, you can't win.
For that reason I would never carry it, since I would be asked to produce it anyway.
What else would I have to carry? Passport? Birth cert? Deeds to my house? A blood and urine sample? Printout of my DNA?
I have my discs in the window and my driver's licence and everything else I will produce later if requested, dragging a ton of paperwork is not only inconvenient, but if your car was nicked the thief would have a blast selling your details to any fraudster in the country.

Tl,Dr:
Discs in window and driver's licence. Nothing else.

Gumbo

dahamsta wrote: »

Did you bother reading the thread? Or even just the first post?

whomitconcerns wrote: »

My understanding has always been that you need the full cert in the car. The disc in the window is just for a quick visual confirmation, but you need the rest of the cert page with you. I am pretty sure it says that on the cert...

Nope, Section 69 of the road traffic act, as posted above your posts post states you can produce within 10 days, which means that you dont legally have to carry your cert with you.

I have never ever kept my cert in the car and never will unless it becaomes law. Can you imagine the amount of paperwork on the person if you had to keep everything with you at all times.

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

And what happens if the car is stolen or broken into? Both of which have happened to me?

No, sorry, I am not carrying anything valuable like an official document around in the car with me. I'll produce it later on request.

Screw laws which are an ass.

Apart from the car itself, if my car was stolen or broken into I'd be much more worried about my sunglasses than an easily replaceable and little good to anyone else bit of paper in the glove box. It makes life easier to carry it as discs aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Id be as well pleased to see discs done away with and make carrying the cert mandatory.