How to get a particular sound and which vocal mic/technique to use

pinksoir

I love the sound from early recordings, like Edith Piaf, early soul/Motown, swing, early rock n roll, Buddy Holly etc. A sort of extremely coloured, warm, slightly overdriven (maybe) sound.

You know the sort of thing you hear on 40's or 50's recordings? Probably a lot of that is down to the degradation of sound through the aging of vinyl etc and (lower fi) recording techniques. But do you know the sound I mean?

How would I achieve that? What sort of mic would I need? What plugs/gear? Any particular techniques or tips for it?

Eg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0_eRVroLqs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRlOI3N7Hao

An extreme example, probably very coloured by the recording's degradation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zFc7nIJnvo

peter05

Analog chain and tube mics reel to reel. You could use the UAD reel plug in/Telefunken or Nuemann mic. Am sure they used one of the older fairchilds as a leveling amp/compressor. Seems like your in need of a membership with the AES. There is plenty of papers there on the older technique. I have a membership past number of years. I swear by it.

Have a look through http://www.aes.org/

pinksoir

Cheers for the link.

This is another pretty good example of it again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Bdi_rTSig

The vocal has some nice saturation throughout, but when Lennon sings "can't help myself" and "don't want nobody, nobody" the vocal becomes super-saturated, and really, really cool. That's pretty much the exact sound I'm looking for.

I read up on some Motown vocal techniques, one of which was parallel compression and reverb. One channel is the natural vocal signal with reverb and/or delay, and the second channel is compressed with EQing around 5kHz, then blended with the natural signal to add 'excitement' and clarity.

You reckon a nice tube mic? Any ones in particular? (I can't afford a U47!) I can get a loan of an R2R.

peter05

also a lot of the older 40/50/60 was cut directly to vinyl with band playing in separate room and master/cutting engineer tracking in another room. This would yield your background/static noise. It's very rarely done these days, metropolis did some a while back out of studio A never heard the results but it does yield that sound your after.

Telefunken tube mic, and a leveling amp might be a good start for you. Keep an eye on some of the German broadcast stuff VintageCity is a good place I picked up a neumann U473 and EMT 245 recently for half what they should cost I remember seeing some decent mic's there also.

Some of the 1/4" tapes are mostly for consumer playback. If you want to have a decent R2R go for anything above 1/2"

with compression on one channel you could side chain your compressor in mastering or find a De-esser ( all vinyl has compression on the high freq) it's used alot to keep the bass thumping in todays dance music.

Edit: Even if you don't like the Telefunken it still holds it's resale value, if your worried about spending serious €€€ on a mic and then been stuck with it don't be. Bear in mind also the rack for cutting vinyl. mono amps x 2, Feedback amp(Transient control) acceleration limiter(De-Esser), these tend to add a little tone to cutting depending on setup.(Neumann/Scully)

pinksoir

I should probably add that I'm working from a home studio and don't have much in the way of cash. I'm pretty much just demoing stuff at home and then I'll record it properly in a studio. I do like being able to nail down techniques at home so I don't spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to achieve it in a studio wasting time/money!

That being said, all the info will help when it comes to recording properly. Plus it'll help me pick a studio with equipment that'll allow me to do what I aim to.

peter05

pinksoir wrote: »

I should probably add that I'm working from a home studio and don't have much in the way of cash.

Try and find a cheap/decent tube mic so. How much is your budget? Am sure you already have a De-esser plugin in your DAW and a plugin compressor. When your compressing your highs make sure you add a brick wall filter around 13-15khz on vocal.I know its only controlling simbalance but its another trick.

If you can pinpoint what studio they were cut in I can tell you what tricks were used with the brick wall filter.(It comes down to what freq range they were able to work with ) That AES will help you along though.

pinksoir

Yah, I have both ITB.

High up on my list is a nice vocal mic (using an AT2020 atm ), but I have a couple of other things to buy first (amp head, iso cab build). I guess I'd be looking at maybe 5-600 quid. Obviously lower is always better, but bang for the buck is paramount. Second-hand is king!

peter05

Not high fidelity but works on your budget http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAD-Trion-8000-Multi-Pattern-Studio-Tube-Condenser-Mic-w-Shockmount-Case-/370611444161?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564a29d9c1

Factor in some replacement tubes also.

pinksoir

Thanks for that.

Are CAD any good? Have you any experience with them? I've read some very conflicting opinions online, but a lot of what I can see for the Trion 8000 seems to be quite positive.

I had a T-Bone valve condenser mic before and it was pretty crappy, so I'm kinda wary about cheap Chinese manufactured stuff. That said, Chinese electronics manufacturing has come in leaps and bounds over the last few years.

peter05

pinksoir wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Are CAD any good? Have you any experience with them? I've read some very conflicting opinions online, but a lot of what I can see for the Trion 8000 seems to be quite positive.

I had a T-Bone valve condenser mic before and it was pretty crappy, so I'm kinda wary about cheap Chinese manufactured stuff. That said, Chinese electronics manufacturing has come in leaps and bounds over the last few years.

Have a look around you will know yourself. No experience with it but you get what you pay for.(cheap) just do a ebay search on tube mic and find some reviews.

pinksoir

Actually, listening to some videos it sounds pretty nice. A very em... vintage? tone. Pretty cool for the price point.

madtheory

It's not the vinyl (but the Izoptope vinyl plugin will do that). It's 99% how they sang it. Like with Buddy Holly- IIRC there are no overdubs on that, so you're basically hearing a live take. I have the "from the original master tapes" version here, and actually the vocal is super clear, there's only a tiny bit of overload distortion in places. That was recorded with a mono Ampex tape machine. I'm 99% certain that all of your other examples are tape also. Not disc, that's bull****.

The Beatles one is a U47, basically, into the Telefunken pre amp (later stuff is the EMI REDD pre, very similar). I've tested a Neumann U67 into a Telefunken V72 pre amp, and it sounds more sexy than old, and doesn't distort easily. Good valve gear actually sounds really "hi-fi"!

Your AT mic is actually pretty good. You should experiment with a selection of tube and tape plugins. Loads of them out there. Don't be afraid to put several in a row on the inserts. I would try a 15kHz LPF also. That would mimic the many stages that the record would have gone through. Personally I much prefer how the stuff sounds off the "original master tape". That's what they signed off on in the studio.

peter05

madtheory wrote: »

It's not the vinyl (but the Izoptope vinyl plugin will do that). It's 99% how they sang it. Like with Buddy Holly- IIRC there are no overdubs on that, so you're basically hearing a live take. I have the "from the original master tapes" version here, and actually the vocal is super clear, there's only a tiny bit of overload distortion in places. That was recorded with a mono Ampex tape machine. I'm 99% certain that all of your other examples are tape also. Not disc, that's bull****.

If you understood my post a bit more you will see that I wasn't saying these were all from disc. I was trying to explain the limitations in freq and why things were produced the way they were for consumer market. Hence the use of Desser/Side Chain Compression and Brick wall filter.

madtheory

Nope. Hardly anyone used side chaining, and de-essing was rarely required in mastering with recordings of this era. The Beatles, for one, used the compressor as an effect, not because of vinyl. Their stuff is actually quite loud and bass heavy- just listen to the mono remasters! The compression was done while recording, so it's what we hear on the CD now. My point is I think the vinyl process is over rated- that's obvious when you hear the "from the original master tape" stuff. It has all of that vibe that I think pinksoir is after, the whole vinyl process actually takes away from it in the vast majority of pressings.

peter05

pinksoir wrote: »

and the second channel is compressed with EQing around 5kHz,

Is this not sidechaining, or am I reading it arse ways.

pinksoir

Mostly. Here's the article by Bob Dennis, Motown engineer extraordinaire: http://www.recordinginstitute.com/R2KREQ/excomp.htm

The Buddy Holly thing is really interesting. It's totally down to the way he sang it alright. I can't remember who, but all those dudes from that era were aping someone else. Elvis, Holly, Orbison. Wish I could remember who. But yeah, it's all in the delivery. Using the voice like an instrument.

I'll have a mess around with some tape saturation plugs. My AT2020 is alright. I guess the thing about it is it's totally uncoloured, neutral, clear, whatever. Though that's a good thing in general operation!

I bought a cheap Yamaha RM-804 desk. I bought initially because I can run my synths, bass, guitar etc through it as it has a bunch of sends/returns/outs. I've found that while it's definitely not hi-fi,the preamps and EQ are actually quite musical and colouring is a good way. They're a little bit dirty and sound great to run drums through (well Superior Drummer bus out and then back into the DAW) . I'll see how they sound on vocals too.

I'm definitely gonna give that Motown thing a proper try though too.

madtheory

peter05 wrote: »

Is this not sidechaining, or am I reading it arse ways.

Ya it is, but I was talking about the Beatles and Buddy Holly- both of which are superior to most of the Motown vocals IMHO, and are pretty straightforward recording chains. Just a good mic, a compressor and a bit of hi shelving at 5kHz. The EMI "trick" is the modified Altec compressor, now available as a plugin. They have the eq as well, it's fabulous. But I've used the 5kHz shelf trick for years, even the Waves Q10 can do a good job of it.

Sidechaining was very unusual, and I think there's a reason for that! To me a lot of the Motown vocals sound distorted and overcooked, whereas the Buddy Holly is magical and has stood the test of time- because he didn't need any tricks. Same with Lennon (although he loved ADT, there's none on the track that's posted). Bear in mind we're talking about the 1% (as I said earlier) and (as pinksoir points out above) it's 99% how they performed it.