blu-ray recorders and upc/sky

jjj6894x

hi there,

just want to stick this up here in the hope of picking people's brains.

i've got a new samsung LED television and it has a small number of hdtv channels on it (including rte two).

i need to find a blu-ray recorder (as opposed to just a player) that will be compatible with the upc decoder and allow me to record programmes.

i have already tried a samsung recorder which i got in currys in liffey valley, but the tuner part of it turned out only to be a freeview one, i.e. it's for people who have actual satellite dishes. this meant i could not tune the recorder into the channels on my upc decoder.

(i intend switching to sky in a few months, and apparently this samsung player would not work with a sky decoder either.)

so what i need is a blu-ray recorder which i can tune into my upc (or sky) box. i'm presuming this is actually possible, and that it is not technically impossible to record programmes on a blu-ray recorder in HD off a upc/sky decoder.

so, does anyone have any suggestions of make, model etc? all assistance will be very gratefully received.

yoyo

Thread moved.

BrianD

Don't believe it's possible or at least easy for the average consumer. There are roundabout ways but it seems that you are recording an analogue version of the material. Panasonic apparently have some Blu Rays that might of use to you.

Might I suggest to get a DVR from Sky or UPC?

watty

Or get a dish and a Freesat HD blu Ray HDD recorder.

The only why to record UPC in HD is on their own box. Otherwise a cheap analogue DVD recorder on the UPC SCART socket.

jjj6894x

first off, thanks for the replies.

essentially it comes down to this. i have rte two in HD (on the upc package) and i'd like to be able to record ireland's games next month in the HD instead of just the crappy normal digital signal.

i live in an apartment block (ground floor) so putting in an actual satellite dish would be problematic, though not impossible. i think there is a communal sky dish on the building's roof already.

so if i'm getting an rte two HD picture on my screen (which i am), then surely there must be a way to record this onto a blu-ray disc?

swampy353

jjj6894x wrote: »

first off, thanks for the replies.

essentially it comes down to this. i have rte two in HD (on the upc package) and i'd like to be able to record ireland's games next month in the HD instead of just the crappy normal digital signal.

i live in an apartment block (ground floor) so putting in an actual satellite dish would be problematic, though not impossible. i think there is a communal sky dish on the building's roof already.

so if i'm getting an rte two HD picture on my screen (which i am), then surely there must be a way to record this onto a blu-ray disc?

Looking at Amazon the cheapest blu ray recorder is £378 which equates to €470 ish. If you are just looking to record the match then get a dvr through upc for €5 a month. It will be in HD quality and have surround sound
But as soon as you decide that you want to burn to disc the cost really mounts up, you will have the cost of the recorder above and then each disc will cost you about €3.50 (amazon again)
The other issue that you may have is whether upc copy protect their video stream over hdmi, this may means that even with the recorder and everything else set, the upc box may refuse to transmit the HD signal to the recorder. Not a techie but maybe someone can advise..

Would deffo go for the DVR option from upc

jjj6894x

swampy353 wrote: »

Looking at Amazon the cheapest blu ray recorder is £378 which equates to €470 ish. If you are just looking to record the match then get a dvr through upc for €5 a month. It will be in HD quality and have surround sound
But as soon as you decide that you want to burn to disc the cost really mounts up, you will have the cost of the recorder above and then each disc will cost you about €3.50 (amazon again)
The other issue that you may have is whether upc copy protect their video stream over hdmi, this may means that even with the recorder and everything else set, the upc box may refuse to transmit the HD signal to the recorder. Not a techie but maybe someone can advise..

Would deffo go for the DVR option from upc

thanks for the response.

well i've already got this samsung recorder (which, as mentioned, doesn't pick up upc).

€3.50 a disc is steep but i can live with that.

so how does it work? i ring upc, ask for this DVR thing, they give it to me for an extra €5 a month . . . that's all fine . . . but when i subsequently want to burn it to disc, how do you reckon i should go about it? given that the samsung recorder won't do anything for me except play existing commercial blu-rays?

swampy353

jjj6894x wrote: »

thanks for the response.

well i've already got this samsung recorder (which, as mentioned, doesn't pick up upc).

€3.50 a disc is steep but i can live with that.

so how does it work? i ring upc, ask for this DVR thing, they give it to me for an extra €5 a month . . . that's all fine . . . but when i subsequently want to burn it to disc, how do you reckon i should go about it? given that the samsung recorder won't do anything for me except play existing commercial blu-rays?

Ok sorry, think I have a better understanding of what you are looking for now. When you say you have UPC, do have a upc box or just a cable that gets plugged into the tv?
Also can you clarify whether the bluray is freeSAT or freeVIEW?

watty

You can't "burn" the UPC DVR to disc other than play it back and record analogue in SD only same as a VCR, S-VHS or cheap DVD recorder via the SCART.

It's not intended that you "keep" the recordings indefinitely. It's PayTV.

But yes you call UPC and they give you a different box that has a HDD inside and can schedule internal recordings of the Program guide.

There is no point at all on a Blu Ray recorder other than one for Freesat HD or Freeview HD (which might work on Saorview). They are a waste of money on pay TV (UPC cable or Sky).

Also the Pay TV PVRs (UPC or Sky) if you cancel you lose access to recordings. You need the appropriate viewing card and package to playback.

Analogue via the SCART is a lot poorer on a DVD recorder than a FTA Digital recorder, but better than VHS or S-VHS. I used to use an €90 DVD recorder on a Sky box till we cancelled. Now I record only FTA Digital directly on PC.

jjj6894x

swampy353 wrote: »

Ok sorry, think I have a better understanding of what you are looking for now. When you say you have UPC, do have a upc box or just a cable that gets plugged into the tv?
Also can you clarify whether the bluray is freeSAT or freeVIEW?

1) a upc box which says "upc hd mediabox" on the front. it's about two or three months old.

2) the bluray is freeview, it's a samsung bd hdd combo bd-e8500m.

jjj6894x

watty wrote: »

You can't "burn" the UPC DVR to disc other than play it back and record analogue in SD only same as a VCR, S-VHS or cheap DVD recorder via the SCART.

It's not intended that you "keep" the recordings indefinitely. It's PayTV.

thing is, i used to have a normal panasonic dvd (not bluray) recorder and i routinely recorded anything i wanted off the tv, off any channel that i happened to have. this was in a normal digital (not HD obviously) signal. so surely if it can be done in a digital picture, it can be done with HD too.

swampy353

jjj6894x wrote: »

thing is, i used to have a normal panasonic dvd (not bluray) recorder and i routinely recorded anything i wanted off the tv, off any channel that i happened to have. this was in a normal digital (not HD obviously) signal. so surely if it can be done in a digital picture, it can be done with HD too.

Not really, with HDMI there is a few copy protection measures built, when you were using the panasonic recorder, you would have been using a scart to connect it up. With SCART there was no real way to stop you copying the content.
When the HDMI standard was been drawn up, internet piracy was becoming more prevalent. Measures where written into the standards that meant that when you connect a device via HDMI the devices do a handshake and identify themselves to each other. This is called HDCP.

Also did a check on the model number that you gave. There is no blu recorder on it, there is 500gb hard drive on it, which will allow you to use it as a pvr but not take recordings off it. Also it freeview hd specced which means it should be able to receive Saorview without any problems.

jjj6894x

swampy353 wrote: »

Not really, with HDMI there is a few copy protection measures built, when you were using the panasonic recorder, you would have been using a scart to connect it up. With SCART there was no real way to stop you copying the content.
When the HDMI standard was been drawn up, internet piracy was becoming more prevalent. Measures where written into the standards that meant that when you connect a device via HDMI the devices do a handshake and identify themselves to each other. This is called HDCP.

Also did a check on the model number that you gave. There is no blu recorder on it, there is 500gb hard drive on it, which will allow you to use it as a pvr but not take recordings off it. Also it freeview hd specced which means it should be able to receive Saorview without any problems.

so i can't even burn any discs with it.

is there any way around this at all, with another machine instead of that one? piracy is the furthest thing from my mind, i would just like to record a few games next month and be able to look at them 20 years from now.

yoyo

jjj6894x wrote: »

so i can't even burn any discs with it.

i would just like to record a few games next month and be able to look at them 20 years from now.

I would say recordable media will degrade and become unreadable long before 20 years, I think I heard somewhere that 10 years is good for a good media to last, probably more but I'd say 20 years for recordable blu ray media would be impressive.

Nick

swampy353

You could use your old panasonic recorder to burn to dvd at standard resolution. The only way to burn to blu ray is to buy a recorder, with the cost attached as listed above. Sorry I cant be of more help

jjj6894x

swampy353 wrote: »

You could use your old panasonic recorder to burn to dvd at standard resolution. The only way to burn to blu ray is to buy a recorder, with the cost attached as listed above. Sorry I cant be of more help

believe me, you've been of huge help.

so, if i buy one of those things you mentioned above (as opposed to the samsung thing i am lumbered with, which you googled), is it relatively straightforward to do? it will work pretty much like the old normal dvd recorder i used to have?

sorry for all these questions, it's just that this issue has been bugging me for a few weeks now. really appreciate the assistance.

jjj6894x

yoyo wrote: »

I would say recordable media will degrade and become unreadable long before 20 years, I think I heard somewhere that 10 years is good for a good media to last, probably more but I'd say 20 years for recordable blu ray media would be impressive.

Nick

well, you know what i mean. (as it happens i have plenty of dvds which are more than a decade old and still play fine. taking decent care of them is obviously a prerequisite.)

yoyo

jjj6894x wrote: »

well, you know what i mean. (as it happens i have plenty of dvds which are more than a decade old and still play fine. taking decent care of them is obviously a prerequisite.)

Retail DVDs have a much better chance of lasting than recordable ones, your burnt blu ray discs may work just fine in 20 years time, but just thought I'd let you know there is good chance they wont

Nick

swampy353

jjj6894x wrote: »

believe me, you've been of huge help.

so, if i buy one of those things you mentioned above (as opposed to the samsung thing i am lumbered with, which you googled), is it relatively straightforward to do? it will work pretty much like the old normal dvd recorder i used to have?

sorry for all these questions, it's just that this issue has been bugging me for a few weeks now. really appreciate the assistance.

Should work the same and should be fairly easy.
If you really wanted future compatability and avoid paying near enough €500, it might be worth picking up a tv card for your pc. you would then be able to record to your hard drive and as formats change you could convert your video. Unfortunately there is no real way to guarantee the future but this would seem to me the best bet

ted1

Ok, let's look at this with an engineering mind.

You want to record the match in HD. What's the purpose of the recording. Is it to a. Watch later or b. To permanently keep, so as to show the grand kids in years to come.

We can then provide you with a solution.

Here's a great analogy for the current state.


Remember a drill bit manufacture thinks a customer wants a drill bit. When all he wants is a hole.

jjj6894x

it's to show the grandkids in years to come (or, equally, to look at it myself and think "my god, james mcclean looks so young").

watty

Commercial DVDs and BD are pressed. Even if the reflective layer fails (Google DVD rot) future restorers could recover them as the information is mechanically stored in sense of a record, but with pits in a groove and not wiggling the groove. The reflective layer is so the laser can read the pits and the groove generates an optical signal to "track" the single spiral track. It's the very fine groove that makes the rainbow effect.

Ordinary recordable CD, DVD and BD are not archive quality. They have two problems:
1) The dye layer which encodes the data instead of "pits" on a commercial pressed disk can degrade or revert
2) They use a thin reflective aluminium layer that is easily oxidized or even flakes off as it's often not sandwiched under plastic.
VHS tape lasts better!

Recordable disks have a pressed groove a dye layer instead of pits and reflective backing on the "top". A double sided recordable disk may last better. (but only in the dark). Prolonged daylight will "erase" a recordable disk!

There are special "archival" quality recordable CDs that use a more expensive gold layer coating instead of Aluminium metallisation and a more expensive dye layer. I have never seen DVD or Bluray versions of these. A home recorded DVD or BD might last 10 to 15 years kept in a cool, dry and dark place. It's doubtful that they last 20 and certainly not 30 years. There was a problem with one generation of audio tape due to binder used. But earlier tapes and later ones are fine. I have recorded Aluminiumised cheap type CDs that have massive data drop outs from early 2000s. I have many "gold" type Archival CDRs from mid '90s that are perfect. I have some audio tape nearly 40 year old still fine and VHS over 25 years that's fine.

You're best to record digitally from a "free to air" source on a PC and archive the HDD and make "gold" type file backups on Archival CDR (save the file across several disks 7zip, Winzip and most archival programs do this). I have HDD that are from early 1980s that still worked in 2004. HDD don't much degrade if stored in a cool dry place.

BluRay Recording is temporary storage and pointless from a UPC or Sky box. Domestic Off air recordings are not actually even meant to be kept long term. Archival quality & reliabilty is very much more expensive. Media and devices for Domestic users don't do it.

It's ironic that 8mm, Super 8 and 16mm "home movies" may last 100s of years, analogue and Digital camcorder tape might last 60 years and current mini-DVD disc recorders or SD cards are unlikely to make it to 15 years.

BrianD

jjj6894x wrote: »

well, you know what i mean. (as it happens i have plenty of dvds which are more than a decade old and still play fine. taking decent care of them is obviously a prerequisite.)

Mind you - will you be able to get your hands on a Blu Ray player in 20 years time!!

jjj6894x

fair points from both briand and watty. i guess i'll worry about that when the time comes, though when blu ray technology is eventually replaced then presumably the new machines will still be able to play them, just as blu ray machines themselves can play old dvds now.

about to head back out to liffey valley to return the hardware i bought, still have the receipt but only some of the packaging. wish me luck . . .

swampy353

jjj6894x wrote: »

fair points from both briand and watty. i guess i'll worry about that when the time comes, though when blu ray technology is eventually replaced then presumably the new machines will still be able to play them, just as blu ray machines themselves can play old dvds now.

about to head back out to liffey valley to return the hardware i bought, still have the receipt but only some of the packaging. wish me luck . . .

If you don't get any joy might be worth sending a PM to Declan on the talk to currys forum. Have also found him very obliging.
Good luck

jjj6894x

well, currys immediately gave me a full refund with zero hassle, which was good of them.

not sure where to go from here though. i don't want to risk €400-€500 on one of those burn-disc recorders on amazon if there's a chance they won't tune in to upc either. maybe i'll just leave it.

watty

Only UPC box can tune UPC digital unless you are very clever and doing something illegal.