Pilots lacking basic stick and rudder skills?

pclancy

Stolen from an interesting discussion on PPrune, what do you guys who fly commercially think of this?

Voss Says Pilots Must Back Up Automation

"Five years ago we passed the point where automation was there to back up pilots," said Flight Safety Foundation CEO Bill Voss at last week's Flight Safety Foundation Corporate Aviation Safety Seminar in San Antonio. "Clearly today, the pilot is there to be the backup to the automation." Voss told AIN "This is simply a realistic assessment of the world today, except we are not training pilots to be backups to automation. We have to own up to the fact that we need develop new kinds of pilot training," he said.

Voss added that human pilots too often lose the mental picture of the aircraft's automation. "If pilots have no idea of what the automation should be doing, they also have no idea of whether everything they observe on the panel represents a normal operation. That's what happened to Air France 447," he said.

"This is not just about better stick and rudder skills though," he explained. "What you die from is not understanding what configuration will keep the aircraft in the air safely. If pilots don't understand that level flight means two-and-a-half degrees of pitch and 93-percent N1, they have no way of manually controlling that aircraft if something breaks. But the training department can't fix everything. This is also an operational problem out on the line."

bladeruner

pclancy wrote: »

Stolen from an interesting discussion on PPrune, what do you guys who fly commercially think of this?

Voss Says Pilots Must Back Up Automation

"Five years ago we passed the point where automation was there to back up pilots," said Flight Safety Foundation CEO Bill Voss at last week's Flight Safety Foundation Corporate Aviation Safety Seminar in San Antonio. "Clearly today, the pilot is there to be the backup to the automation." Voss told AIN "This is simply a realistic assessment of the world today, except we are not training pilots to be backups to automation. We have to own up to the fact that we need develop new kinds of pilot training," he said.

Voss added that human pilots too often lose the mental picture of the aircraft's automation. "If pilots have no idea of what the automation should be doing, they also have no idea of whether everything they observe on the panel represents a normal operation. That's what happened to Air France 447," he said.

"This is not just about better stick and rudder skills though," he explained. "What you die from is not understanding what configuration will keep the aircraft in the air safely. If pilots don't understand that level flight means two-and-a-half degrees of pitch and 93-percent N1, they have no way of manually controlling that aircraft if something breaks. But the training department can't fix everything. This is also an operational problem out on the line."

There is too much automation and too much trust in the computers today.
It has also been recognised that the current high levels of automation has the potential to increase a pilots workload when his work load was already high (eg approach / landing such as a last minute runway change) but decreases his work load at times when it was already low. (eg cruise)

There needs to be a complete Top-down redesign of automation and cockpit ergonomics but there won't be because that would cost money and because many execs believe that the less the pilot touches the controls the better.

Suits

Frightening thing is that automation is starting to creep into to PPL level flying now in some places who train pilots.

I was told a while back by somebody who had trained with a certain school that they "hated flying in Ireland because they dont have as many GPS equipped planes here so they get lost all the time".....
It's true to say that some pilots coming to airline interviews lack basic skills on the stick because they never had to learn them!

I've always been taken aback at the regulation of 12h in the previous year etc for PPL level, yet some commercial pilots dont get 12h hands on in their year....and they carry passengers.....I think airlines have to instruct on basic handling now and not just assume a pilot has not rusted up those skills...one of the main mottos of aviation I believe is never to assume anything!

Turbulent Bill

bladeruner wrote: »

There needs to be a complete Top-down redesign of automation and cockpit ergonomics but there won't be because that would cost money and because many execs believe that the less the pilot touches the controls the better.

I'm not a pilot, but I'm always struck when watching aircrash programmes at how bad the cockpit ergonomics are, and how poor some of the system design is. You have a mish-mash of systems that need manual control, others which are semi-automated and others which are fully automated, which all seem to operate independently. A common feature is pilots dealing with multiple alarms with no priority assigned to each, hence panic ensues. Surely some sort of fuzzy logic should be applied to ensure the pilots deal with problems in a sensible order?

I agree with automation on the whole though. Humans are very poor at monitoring automatic systems however, so there needs to be some hands-on flying as part of every flight.

Growler!!!

Very interesting read, lots over on the "other" website. Unfortunatly company SOP's normally specify where and when the automatics can be turned off.

Suits wrote: »

I was told a while back by somebody who had trained with a certain school that they "hated flying in Ireland because they dont have as many GPS equipped planes here so they get lost all the time".....
It's true to say that some pilots coming to airline interviews lack basic skills on the stick because they never had to learn them!

I've always been taken aback at the regulation of 12h in the previous year etc for PPL level, yet some commercial pilots dont get 12h hands on in their year....and they carry passengers.....I think airlines have to instruct on basic handling now and not just assume a pilot has not rusted up those skills...one of the main mottos of aviation I believe is never to assume anything!

Dude, You'll have to someday let us all know who these people are who tell you things;)

Have to disagree in regard to new guys not having basic handling skills - you'll find they have the best handling skills if they are reasonably current. After all they will not have used automation for their ME/IR unlike airline pilots who use automation everyday.

And dont worry about the airline guys having less than 12hr handling in a year. Every 6 months when we're sent to the Sim - you'll find the Autopilot is inop:D.

Suits

Growler!!! wrote: »

Very interesting read, lots over on the "other" website. Unfortunatly company SOP's normally specify where and when the automatics can be turned off.



Dude, You'll have to someday let us all know who these people are who tell you things;)

Have to disagree in regard to new guys not having basic handling skills - you'll find they have the best handling skills if they are reasonably current. After all they will not have used automation for their ME/IR unlike airline pilots who use automation everyday.

And dont worry about the airline guys having less than 12hr handling in a year. Every 6 months when we're sent to the Sim - you'll find the Autopilot is inop:D.

I can PM you his name(1st name) if you'd like!

My point is that a lot of the big schools train in glass cockpit now and they have a lot of bells and whistles that can go south if there is a technical issue etc, they also have a lot of assistance like the winds displayed in front of them. Some have autopilot that is used when they are not under instruction. However my point is kind of undercut by the various other questionable things that go on now in a lot of FTOs.

View Profile

Can't speak from an Airbus pilot point of view but on the Boeing I fly we don't trust the computer entirely and we are aware of its numerous quirks.

If the autopilot isn't doing what you want it to do (which happens regularly) I will happily step down the level of automation, i.e. use simpler AP modes like V/S or LVL CHG rather than VNAV. If that fails to achieve the level of control I want then I just disconnect the autopilot and fly manually until I regain control of the aircraft.
Same for the autothrottle. I've seen it do stupid things and use inappropriate thrust settings for that stage of flight, leading to the pilot taking manual control to rectify the problem.

The Air France boys fecked up big time and made the most basic piloting error that any student pilot would know was wrong.
Having experienced the problems they encountered, in the simulator, the situation should have been easily controllable. Perhaps easy to say in hindsight, however to pitch an aircraft up when stalling is beyond stupid.

I myself could and should fly manually more often in the job so to improve my own skills and thankfully my company allows us to do this. But in saying that I still feel I have a decent grasp of basic piloting skills that should help avoid situations like Air France, Turkish airlines etc.


I hope.

:P

tippilot

You will find the term "lack of stick and rudder skills" bandied about by the bug smasher brigrade on a regular basis in reference to airline pilots. On the occasion when the weather is terrible, it's howling a gale and the rain is lashing down, they have the option to just look out the window and say "not today". However, us in the airline world just quietly go about our business in conditions that not even the best computer can handle.

When you're working a max crosswind in gusty conditions, an airline pilot will do more "flying" in two minutes than the average PPL will do in two years.

Regarding automation, View Profile is right: you must know it's limitations and work within them. The correct management of such systems is an art form in itself and a rather complicated one at that. There is not a one button solution or anything like it.

There have been a number of accidents in recent years caused by not understanding what the automatics were doing, but individual airline training regimes are as much to blame as anything else. Like any aviation accidents, lessons learned are quickly applied and there has been much recent evidence of this with the term "airmanship" becoming a buzzword again of late. Know your aircraft, know it's systems and limitations and never forget the fact that you are the controlling pilot at all times. Sh!t in, Sh!t out.

And GPS as a form of automation? Please. GPS represents to the airline industry what a VOR was in the 1950's. Should a new pilot not be proficient in the technologies of the day or should we longing cling to older technologies out of some form of misguided nostalgia?

In any case, the last time I flew a light aircraft with GPS fitted, there was no "fly plane" feature. Sigh.

Suits

tippilot wrote: »

And GPS as a form of automation? Please. GPS represents to the airline industry what a VOR was in the 1950's. Should a new pilot not be proficient in the technologies of the day or should we longing cling to older technologies out of some form of misguided nostalgia?

In any case, the last time I flew a light aircraft with GPS fitted, there was no "fly plane" feature. Sigh.

The fact a pilot would need GPS to navigate and would be lost without it is worrying. That was my point. A licensed pilot should be able to fly VFR with a map, compass and ASI no matter what level he is at.

globemaster1986

I've been lucky enough in my training to fly aircraft without GPS, with GPS and also G1000 equipped. I would have to say that when under instruction on a cross country if the aircraft was GPS equipped this was switched to the page with the compass rose so there was no follow the magenta line stuff. It was all down to pilotage and dead reckoning. As part of hours building I did a lot of long cross country flights, some even with the occasional overnight stay. For those long cross country's the G1000 is nice mostly for the autopilot for those long cruise sectors. I would use the autopilot only for the cruise but I would still navigate with reference to the map and the ground, time my legs etc. As soon as it's time for the descent however the AP comes off, don't wanna miss out on the real fun

xflyer

In any case, the last time I flew a light aircraft with GPS fitted, there was no "fly plane" feature. Sigh.

Tippilot, we recently had it installed in the aircraft you flew. ;)Thank goodness, it's saved me many a time.

Yes the notion of better stick and rudder skills is bandied about too much. Sendi ng airline pilots on an aerobatic course has been suggested. Most likely it would just scare them and make them sick. It would do nothing to prevent another AF447.

The key as ever is for the recurrent training to cover the scenarios like Colgan and Air France. Know your aeroplane.

This is the important phrase in the original commentary:

"This is not just about better stick and rudder skills though," he explained. "What you die from is not understanding what configuration will keep the aircraft in the air safely. If pilots don't understand that level flight means two-and-a-half degrees of pitch and 93-percent N1, they have no way of manually controlling that aircraft if something breaks. But the training department can't fix everything. This is also an operational problem out on the line."

As ever accidents lead to improvements. This is another example. Automation was seen as panacea to all those pilot error accidents. What we now see is that automation can and will go wrong and the pilot needs to be ready to take over and FLY the thing when the automation says 'No idea, what's going on. Over to you.'

The current popular idea is that 'planes fly themselves. Even airline pilots say it sometimes. I think perhaps they should find another job.

christmas2012

"Clearly today, the pilot is there to be the backup to the automation." Voss told AIN "This is simply a realistic assessment of the world today, except we are not training pilots to be backups to automation. ''

Thats a ****ing worrying observation,jesus even thinking about the amount of times i flied is now making me feel queasy..

tippilot

xflyer wrote: »

Tippilot, we recently had it installed in the aircraft you flew. ;)Thank goodness, it's saved me many a time.

Best form of automation I had was xflyer in the right seat!

Yes the notion of better stick and rudder skills is bandied about too much. Sendi ng airline pilots on an aerobatic course has been suggested.

Good God no! Routine rudder use is not to be encouraged. A simple rule of thumb on a jet airliner is the rudder is for use for directional control on the runway and for decrab in a crosswind. At no time do you touch it in flight unless a non normal situatuin warrants it's use. It is simply too powerful. (reference American Airlines Flight 587 as an example).

"Clearly today, the pilot is there to be the backup to the automation." Voss told AIN "This is simply a realistic assessment of the world today, except we are not training pilots to be backups to automation. ''

Simply a realistic assessment? Simply populist sensational horse manure. The pilot is and always has been there to control the automation.
The aircraft and the automatics should always be treated as separate entities. Understand at all times what the plane is doing. Understand at all times what the automatics are commanding it to do. If you dont like it, override manually or select a different mode. It's always been the case where I work.

xflyer

Best form of automation I had was xflyer in the right seat!

Excuse me? It was when I was in the left seat and you were hanging over the back of the seat wondering if you might have to use the parachute you were wearing!

Stovepipe

Hey, stop fighting in the cheap seats!............a lot of airline pilots I know don't want to have anything to do with "stik n ruda " skills, apart from what they need for the day job. They do not want or need to keep up their SEP or MEP, don't want to fly anything smaller than an Airbus, don't involve themselves in aviation outside the job, wouldn't consider any other job in aviation unless it paid the same or more and quite frankly, have no time for "anoraks". On the upside,many that I do know are heavily involved in light aviation and will go out of their way to encourage people to become pilots and are still enthusiastic about flying, in general.
regards
Stovepipe