Referee Trouble

Denerick

For obvious reasons, I cannot put down my present employer as a referee. Since my previous employer is in the same company but in a different department, I can't use him. After this comes my ex employer who was my manager about four or five years ago! I'll probably use an academic reference in addition.

This is obviously a problem. My current employer would give me an excellent reference if I was no longer with the company. IF he was contacted whilst I'm still working for the company... It would be a disaster. I would probably get the sack in the long term. My company are very arsey like that.

Any advice? I'm really cheesed off because I would have two excellent references from certain people but I am unable to use them!

Jesus Nut

Just do what everyone else does and get your mate to be your reference. Make it up.
Its not good practive but come on, everyone I know does it!
From a mate who is now a Garda to another freind who is now working for the department of finance.
Just make one up and you will be grand.
Dont make a bad one though! Think of something realistic!

Denerick

I can't really do that. My CV states that I'm already working for this organisation and naturally they will want to talk to my current employer (Obviously I can't actually allow them to speak with him!) Plus, I don't think I know anyone capable of doing this effectively.

I'm a bit worried as I'm not sure that my academic referee would even remember me!

fasttalkerchat

Just write. References available on request/on satisfactory offer.
That's what I do to avoid passing about peoples' phone numbers on every application.

Denerick

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Just write. References available on request/on satisfactory offer.
That's what I do to avoid passing about peoples' phone numbers on every application.

The job I've applied for will lead to a panel. Which will mean that referee's will be contacted prior to a job offer. An unprepared referee will almost certainly give a bad reference (While I sit two feet away from him), and furthermore will probably make life so difficult for me that I'll be forced to leave my job.

I CAN'T put down my current employer unless I have a realistic chance of getting the job in the first place.

Denerick

Denerick wrote: »

I can't really do that. My CV states that I'm already working for this organisation and naturally they will want to talk to my current employer..............

I doubt they will expect to talk to your current employer, it's not the done thing really The folks looking to hire you understand full well that you won't be in a position to get a reference from your current employer in the vast majority of cases. Nothing at all wrong with a reference from 5 years ago, realistically a reference isn't worth a whole lot, it's to complement your interview and tick a box, the probation period is the real check.

Eoin

RoverJames wrote: »

I doubt they will expect to talk to your current employer, it's not the done thing really The folks looking to hire you understand full well that you won't be in a position to get a reference from your current employer in the vast majority of cases. Nothing at all wrong with a reference from 5 years ago, realistically a reference isn't worth a whole lot, it's to complement your interview and tick a box, the probation period is the real check.

I don't agree with that. If you've been working in the same company for 5 years, then there's a chance that a previous reference will be out of date and maybe not applicable to the job you're applying for, unless you've not progressed much in those 5 years.

If I was going for a new job, I'd definitely need to have a reference from where I am now as I was in a much more junior position in my last company - so a reference from there would not count for a huge amount.

If nothing else, a reference can verify that the candidate did actually have the duties they said they did - so I definitely would not say it's not worth a lot.

@Denerick - is there any chance someone at your manager's level can give a reference? That's what I did last time I changed jobs, because my boss there was also my boss in my previous company.

And are you absolutely certain they'll do a reference check before it comes to a job offer? No chance that the offer will be made pending a reference check?

Jesus Nut wrote:

Just do what everyone else does and get your mate to be your reference. Make it up.

That is not what everyone else does, and it's quite easy to catch someone out too.

Denerick

Eoin wrote: »

@Denerick - is there any chance someone at your manager's level can give a reference? That's what I did last time I changed jobs, because my boss there was also my boss in my previous company.

And are you absolutely certain they'll do a reference check before it comes to a job offer? No chance that the offer will be made pending a reference check?

Its a public sector job. As far as I know they'll interview you, check references, go on a panel... etc.

If I do get an interview I could always explain my reasoning... that given the current economic climate it would be impolitic to risk my current job for something like this...

Eoin

OK, well it might be worth confirming if that's the case. I don't think it's reasonable to get a reference from your current employer before you've handed in your notice; let alone before an offer has been made.

Sound out alternatives at your manager's level if possible.

Denerick

Eoin wrote: »

Sound out alternatives at your manager's level if possible.

My bosses aren't the most rational people. There is a reason why I want to leave Its a corporate culture thing.

Kristopherus

If you are employed in a permanent capacity in the public sector, you should know full well that its virtually impossible to be sacked. The worst that can happen to is that you will be re-deployed. Generally in the public service, referees will only be contacted when an appointment is about to be offered from an already established panel. Get on the panel first & then worry about the references. There is little any boss can do in those circumstances except tell the truth. Any boss worth his salt should be happy that his apprentice is going for promotion !!!

Wishbone Ash

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Just do what everyone else does and get your mate to be your reference. Make it up.
Its not good practive but come on, everyone I know does it!

I check references regularly and can see through that quite easily. I don't generally accept mobile phone numbers for a start and would normally expect to get through to a switchboard when seeking references from a previous employer- a bit difficult for a friend to organise!

fasttalkerchat

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I check references regularly and can see through that quite easily. I don't generally accept mobile phone numbers for a start and would normally expect to get through to a switchboard when seeking references from a previous employer- a bit difficult for a friend to organise!

I wouldn't dream of giving someone's home number and its unlikely that you will get through to the right person on a company phone number in many cases so its perfectly normal to give a mobile number.

allibastor

Denerick wrote: »

My bosses aren't the most rational people. There is a reason why I want to leave Its a corporate culture thing.

Hey, the best thing to do in this situation is to explain to the current job you are looking into is to explain that getting a reference from your current employer could be a bit delicate, they will understand as they generally wont want to compromise your position in your current job if they will not be taking you on.

but also try and drop the hint to your current employer that you are looking around. or maybe ask your HR dept if they can give you a reference based on your performance to date.

have you told your current employer that you are looking at leaving or will it be a bit of a blind side.

kippy

References, nowadays, aren't really worth a cent anyway, especially if your reference is written and by the book. Most employers will only state when you worked in the organisation.
Also, most employers hiring a new employee don't usually ask for or expect to get a reference of the current employee.
I've done plenty interviews and taken plenty jobs and references from my current employer at the time were never requested.

scaryfairy

Denerick wrote: »

Its a public sector job. As far as I know they'll interview you, check references, go on a panel... etc.

If I do get an interview I could always explain my reasoning... that given the current economic climate it would be impolitic to risk my current job for something like this...

hi,

it might be worth checking with the HR contact - I was in a similar situation just recently: went on an interview, was told I am a reserve/panel candidate. No references requested - just as well as I also didn't want to let my boss know that I am applying for jobs. Then a few weeks after the panel email, they started asking for original certificates, references etc. I thought they might be doing it for everyone on the panel but then they offered me the job. It's a public sector job, too.

I checked their recruitment policy, and it looks like in this particular institution's case, they only get references pre-interview (pre-decision I suppose) for quite high ranked jobs, which I must admit mine is not.
I would def check it with HR - I know you might feel awkward about the whole thing, but first, you wouldn't be the first one to ask these questions, second, they are not decision makers, they would have to keep it all confidential. Good luck btw.

Mrs OBumble

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I wouldn't dream of giving someone's home number and its unlikely that you will get through to the right person on a company phone number in many cases so its perfectly normal to give a mobile number.

A home number is as useless as a mobile number or an office DDI.

If I was checking references, I would be looking for the main reception number of the company concerned. In fact, I'd probably check the number I was given by the candidate against the company's website etc.

Then I would ring the receptionist and ask to spreak to Joe Bloggs. If the answer was "who?" then you probably didn't get the job.

For cases where Joe also isn't working for the comany any more, I would be asking some very pointed-but-open questions about the claims in your CV: the sort of thing that a friend would find it hard to make up.

kippy

JustMary wrote: »

A home number is as useless as a mobile number or an office DDI.

If I was checking references, I would be looking for the main reception number of the company concerned. In fact, I'd probably check the number I was given by the candidate against the company's website etc.

Then I would ring the receptionist and ask to spreak to Joe Bloggs. If the answer was "who?" then you probably didn't get the job.

For cases where Joe also isn't working for the comany any more, I would be asking some very pointed-but-open questions about the claims in your CV: the sort of thing that a friend would find it hard to make up.

You seem very familiar with the area Mary so you might be able to advise me whether my comments above are misguided?

fasttalkerchat

JustMary wrote: »

A home number is as useless as a mobile number or an office DDI.

If I was checking references, I would be looking for the main reception number of the company concerned. In fact, I'd probably check the number I was given by the candidate against the company's website etc.

Then I would ring the receptionist and ask to spreak to Joe Bloggs. If the answer was "who?" then you probably didn't get the job.

For cases where Joe also isn't working for the comany any more, I would be asking some very pointed-but-open questions about the claims in your CV: the sort of thing that a friend would find it hard to make up.

If you take a supermarket chain for example. If you call head office the best they can do is confirm that the employee is on their system. If you want to speak to the store manager who is named as a reference you would have to go to the store to speak with him. Unless you place a huge amount of faith references (I don't), you're not going to go to that trouble.

panama

Are previous employers allowed by law to give bad references?

kippy

panama wrote: »

Are previous employers allowed by law to give bad references?

Its not a good idea to give good or bad references (technicilly) just to state the dates the employee work in the place - hence my thoughts that references aren't as big a deal as they once were.

fasttalkerchat

panama wrote: »

Are previous employers allowed by law to give bad references?

The usual question is "if he/she applied for a job with you, would you employ them".

Eoin

panama wrote: »

Are previous employers allowed by law to give bad references?

Yes, once they can back it up. And as kippy alluded to, giving a good reference when s/he was in fact a crap employee could be as bad. I don't agree at all that references aren't worth anything though.

fasttalkerchat's question is a good way of getting an honest answer that is pretty safe to give.

Companies might have a policy of only giving the job title and length of service, but many managers will actually take a call unofficially.

Jim2007

Denerick wrote: »

I can't really do that. My CV states that I'm already working for this organisation and naturally they will want to talk to my current employer (Obviously I can't actually allow them to speak with him!) Plus, I don't think I know anyone capable of doing this effectively.

I'm a bit worried as I'm not sure that my academic referee would even remember me!

For an internal transfer, it is not beryl likely that they will want references, since they know you already!!! You can expect that they will contact your manager and look at your HR file though.

Denerick

Jim2007 wrote: »

For an internal transfer, it is not beryl likely that they will want references, since they know you already!!! You can expect that they will contact your manager and look at your HR file though.

I don't know why people are assuming I'm applying for a job in the same company?

Jim2007

Denerick wrote: »

I don't know why people are assuming I'm applying for a job in the same company?

Possibly this line is confusion us....

Denerick wrote: »

Since my previous employer is in the same company but in a different department, I can't use him.

So what exactly are you doing?

Denerick

Jim2007 wrote: »

Possibly this line is confusion us....



So what exactly are you doing?

My current employer and my previous employer are in the same company. My prospective employer is a public sector organisation.

Jim2007

Denerick wrote: »

My current employer and my previous employer are in the same company. My prospective employer is a public sector organisation.

So you've worked for two different people in the same company is that what you are trying to say?

leeroybrown

I think that's pretty obvious. It's common to work in multiple positions, multiple departments or even multiple companies within one organisation.

Denerick, It's a very common problem. If I were in your position I'd talk to the person in HR at the potential employer who is dealing with the recruitment and ask exactly how they plan to proceed with the use of references. In my experience the normal (and only sane) practice is to check references if you're happy to hire the person unless something particularly bad is said. That said, if you dig back through this forum you'll come across cases where people got shafted by employers indiscreetly contacting current employers then not offering a job.

I wouldn't put a huge amount of store in them myself unless I already knew I could trust the referee. I've seen so many "stand in" referees, embellished references and managers who might base their reference on their personal feeling towards someone rather than their competence that I wouldn't be particularly trusting of them.

uck51js9zml2yt

of your reference id found to be false you Will be sacked.
a referee can't give a good or bad reference.
a false good one leads to a claim and a bad one leads to a claim.