Religion in nursing homes vs. secularism

Dave!

Hey folks,

Just looking for your thoughts on this

My aunt has pretty serious dementia, and is in full-time care, and probably will be for the rest of her life. I visited her there a couple of weeks ago. Nice enough place, at least given the nature of the health problems of the residents

Anywho, there was the odd bit of religious paraphernalia on walls here and there, but there is a chapel / church in the building also. My dad said that they open one of the walls on it when there's a mass on, and everyone can sit in the adjacent room and watch. I gather everyone, or most people at least, attend these masses.

I didn't give it much thought then, but thinking now I'm pretty sure the nursing home is at least partially funded by the HSE. If not that one, then I'm sure there are others that are, and they'll inevitably have churches within their walls.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on this. I'd obviously be a supporter of a totally secular government (and agencies), but at the same time if you removed the churches from that nursing home I reckon it would be a huge blow to the residents. If there were no churches in any state nursing homes, then the wealthier families might be able to pay for a private one which would have a church, whereas the less fortunate would probably have to do without.

These places are grim and daunting enough for an elderly Alzheimer's sufferer, what's the compromise that could be reached in a completely secular country?

Any thoughts?

seamus

Yeah, that's a tough one. On one hand, maintaining the secularism of state bodies is important.
But on the other hand I'm not a fan of forcing geriatric and infirm patients to be wheeled out of a nursing home down to the local indoctrinatorium when reasonable accomodation can be made for them in the home.

My gut feeling is that it's appropriate to have a multi-denominational chapel in these buildings where any faith can celebrate their mass, or whatever it is that they do.

Dades

I'm tempted to delete your post before some wag gets wind of the "militant atheist agenda to strip religion from care homes"...

Secularism should place "chapels in nursing homes" firmly on ignore, and walk away...

Zamboni

They'll die out eventually...

seamus

Dades wrote: »

I'm tempted to delete your post before some wag gets wind of the "militant atheist agenda to strip religion from care homes"...

Secularism should place "chapels in nursing homes" firmly on ignore, and walk away...

Yeah, I think it's appropriate to recognise that secularism isn't about stripping out religion or protecting people from being exposed to religion. It's simply about ensuring that no religious viewpoint (including lack thereof) is treated more favourably than any other by the state.

gaynorvader

Why is a chapel needed? Would any room not serve for mass? That way they could use the dining room or similar for any service the residents want.

Dr Galen

There would be a few reasons why you'd see "chapels" ( I use the word loosely,they are often small rooms, converted to look a bit holy) in nursing homes.

It's still true to say that a lot of the older generation cling quite strongly to their faith. Higher proportion of mass attendance etc. You'll often have the situation where the facility just doesn't exist to take 30 odd nursing home residents to the local church for mass. It's also the case that quite a few of the residents just wouldn't be able for it either.

You also have a lot of older buildings out there in use as nursing homes, particularly in the state sector. Many were built in the times when the church held a much larger hold on the country, so it really wasn't that mad to have a chapel built as part of the structure.

Lastly, you'll often get a situation where a resident might have no other family alive or around. When the die, the chapel gets used as a place to lay out the body for a wake or such. Of course, they could get transferred to the funeral directors, but, and as the name suggests, that person could have made the place their home over a number of years, maybe making a few friends, becoming part of the place really. It'd would be kinda dispassionate to be shipping them off for the night to the funeral home in those cases.

For reference though, I have personally seen these chapels used for other services, not just catholic ones, once a bit of shifting around was done so as not to upset anyones sensibilities etc.

equivariant

Definitely think that this is non issue. Most people in nursing homes are too old to be brainwashed one way or the other, so if the majority (currently) want a chapel in the nursing home, then let them off.

Totally different to the religion in schools issue.

Corkfeen

Not an issue at all but one thing, we're ruining this militant atheism thing.... David Quinn just imploded as he read this topic.

Dave!

Not sure how it can be brushed off so easily... If the State should stay out of the religion business, then it should stay out of the religion business shouldn't it? Aren't the same factors potentially at play in a nursing home as in a school? i.e. if a Muslim patient has to go to a nursing home, should they just accept that the place is covered in crucifixes?

TheChizler

You have a point that it can't be brushed off, if you do than it could be argued that you should just brush off the church in schools etc. We all probably think through gut instinct that they should be let away with it, the need is to translate that into conscious thinking.

Myself I suppose it's ok as long as one religion isn't favoured. Removing Christian imagery and rebranding nursing home and hospital chapels as general purpose relaxation/prayer space like you get in airports would fulfil secular requirements.

Dr Galen

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure how it can be brushed off so easily... If the State should stay out of the religion business, then it should stay out of the religion business shouldn't it? Aren't the same factors potentially at play in a nursing home as in a school? i.e. if a Muslim patient has to go to a nursing home, should they just accept that the place is covered in crucifixes?

I wouldn't inherently disagree with you, but you have to take into account the current demographic in nursing homes, who are mainly of the older, steeped in mass variety.

By the time people of my generation have a requirement for nursing home care, then of course I would want to see a much more secular ethos.

MagicMarker

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure how it can be brushed off so easily... If the State should stay out of the religion business, then it should stay out of the religion business shouldn't it? Aren't the same factors potentially at play in a nursing home as in a school? i.e. if a Muslim patient has to go to a nursing home, should they just accept that the place is covered in crucifixes?

Personally, there shouldn't be any religious paraphernalia on the walls in a nursing home, except for in the occupant's own room, where they can have a life size waxwork of Jesus for all I care.

I have no problem with there being a room dedicated to religious practice, catering to people of all beliefs.

UDP

Dr Galen wrote: »

I wouldn't inherently disagree with you, but you have to take into account the current demographic in nursing homes, who are mainly of the older, steeped in mass variety.

By the time people of my generation have a requirement for nursing home care, then of course I would want to see a much more secular ethos.

So a minority should be ignored? Same argument could be made about schools.

Dr Galen

MagicMarker wrote: »

Personally, there shouldn't be any religious paraphernalia on the walls in a nursing home, except for in the occupant's own room, where they can have a life size waxwork of Jesus for all I care.

I have no problem with there being a room dedicated to religious practice, catering to people of all beliefs.

Again, I don't really disagree, but you do have to take into account that the nursing home is that person's home now. You can't really separate the residents room from the rest of the building tbh. It's kinda all the same.

UDP wrote: »

So a minority should be ignored? Same argument could be made about schools.

No, I don't agree with the schools argument being the same, and the only reason for that is as I've mentioned before, because of the demographics involved. We have a (relatively) big cohort of parents who do not want their kids to attend a faith/catholic/christian school. That population just doesn't really exist in our older population.

If we were talking about acute hospitals, then I'd be much more in agreement with both you and the OP. Acute hospitals have a population much more varied, and so to my mind we should be working towards a secular environment there, which will be hard considering that nearly all of the large acute hospitals are owned by religious orders, much like the secularisation of our schools.

MagicMarker

Dr Galen wrote: »

Again, I don't really disagree, but you do have to take into account that the nursing home is that person's home now. You can't really separate the residents room from the rest of the building tbh. It's kinda all the same.

True, but it's also a shared home. Would you be happy if a house mate who paid the same rent as you stuck religious paraphernalia around the house? Compromises need to be met imo.

In publicly funded shared accommodation the communal areas should remain as neutral as possible.

ShooterSF

I found out months ago after spending years hiding it from her that my 82 year old, brought up in the Catholic faith, grandmother is actually a non-believer. It took a few of her grandsons being open about it for her to finally feel confident enough to say it.

It shocked me as she goes on religious retreats and such regularly but as I thought about it the sad fact is so many of her peers only take part in religious activities, even if it's just mass before bingo, that she does it solely for the social reasons.

I guess I'd also prefer to see a multi-purpose relaxation/spiritual room which when not in use has no clear leanings to any demographic. The thing is though unlike children who are too young to truly believe in a faith and unlike most adults who can believe in one and access it in their free time, adults in nursing homes tend to be restricted as to where they go and what they do and I'd be more comfortable with the state trying to cater to their wants where possible as long as one isn't given preference.

With that said and as my mind continues to flip flop on this issue, I'm very much against the idea of opening out one wall and possibly subjecting residents to either a mass they don't want or forcing them to leave their usually non-religious rec room.

robindch

ShooterSF wrote: »

[...] solely for the social reasons [...]

There's a lot to be said for that, and it's one of the things that religion does well.

Here's a rather intriguing story on aging, and how religion was used to support the idea of community, for the benefit of all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/books/chapters/chapter-outliers.html?pagewanted=all

UDP

Dr Galen wrote: »

No, I don't agree with the schools argument being the same, and the only reason for that is as I've mentioned before, because of the demographics involved. We have a (relatively) big cohort of parents who do not want their kids to attend a faith/catholic/christian school. That population just doesn't really exist in our older population.

So we should just assume that everyone living in a nursing home is a christian?

Dades

TheChizler wrote: »

Myself I suppose it's ok as long as one religion isn't favoured. Removing Christian imagery and rebranding nursing home and hospital chapels as general purpose relaxation/prayer space like you get in airports would fulfil secular requirements.

And such a demand from a group like, for example, Atheist Ireland, would set any secular cause back years.

Surely the argument is not whether technically a secular society would not allow religious iconography in a publicly funded care home, but whether it is a fight worth fighting or even mentioning?

Dave!

I have no desire to fight such a fight, but it does seem somewhat hypocritical to call for religion and government to be completely seperate, yet to turn a blind eye to a rather blatant example of sectarianism because it would require some uncomfortable decisions to be made.

Maybe us secular atheist types aren't so militant after all! Soft as sh*te!!

TheChizler

Dades wrote: »

And such a demand from a group like, for example, Atheist Ireland, would set any secular cause back years.

Surely the argument is not whether technically a secular society would not allow religious iconography in a publicly funded care home, but whether it is a fight worth fighting or even mentioning?

Oh definitely not calling for it to be demanded or anything, it's really at the bottom of the list of priorities. Just from my experience in seeing prayer rooms in some private care centres, they can be done up well without any obvious iconography and you really wouldn't notice unless you were specifically looking for it.

Dades

TheChizler wrote: »

Oh definitely not calling for it to be demanded or anything, it's really at the bottom of the list of priorities...

Yeah, I know you were quoted but I didn't mean to imply you were making demands!

Dave! wrote: »

I have no desire to fight such a fight, but it does seem somewhat hypocritical to call for religion and government to be completely seperate, yet to turn a blind eye to a rather blatant example of sectarianism because it would require some uncomfortable decisions to be made.

I don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever, just a willingness on the part of secularists to prioritise and take each case on it's own merits. If there were a clamouring from residents of nursing homes things might be different.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

I don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever, just a willingness on the part of secularists to prioritise and take each case on it's own merits. If there were a clamouring from residents of nursing homes things might be different.

I don't see this becoming an issue until a sizable chunk of non-Christians reach 'retirement home age' and their families take issue with the Government that secular alternatives are not available - much like what is happening in schools today.

jank

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure how it can be brushed off so easily... If the State should stay out of the religion business, then it should stay out of the religion business shouldn't it? Aren't the same factors potentially at play in a nursing home as in a school? i.e. if a Muslim patient has to go to a nursing home, should they just accept that the place is covered in crucifixes?

Yes.

Paarthurnax

Any of the the majority of nursing homes that I have worked either Private or HSE owned do not have a dedicated room for prayer or a chapel. Normally mass is said once a week be a local priest usually on a week day. A small percentage of the residents attend. For me as an atheiest I dont mind and I consider it just as any activity such as music therapy or activation therapy. As for religious iconography I cant see these homes littered with statues and crosses etc.