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New * Dental Complaints Resolution Service

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  • 09-05-2012 1:35pm
    #1
    bureau2009
    Registered Users Posts: 599 ✭✭✭


    Just announced on RTE News at One - a new, voluntary, informal mediation service to resolve patients' disputes with dentists.

    It's called The Dental Complaints Resolution Service. It will be based in Castlebar and Michael Kilcoyne (Chairperson of the Consumers Association) will be its first mediator.

    It will offer mediation services to dental patients and any issues not resolved will be referred to its committee. It will provide an alternative to complaining to the Dental Council.

    Hopefully it will be good for consumers and the dental profession alike.

    www.dentalcomplaints.ie

    Dental Complaints Resolution Service is an independent body, funded by Irish Dental Association.


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    #2
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    on a logistical point, why is it based in castlebar (i'm pretending i know nothing about the hometown of the taoiseach) while the consumer association is based in dublin?


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    #3
    yobr
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭yobr


    bureau2009 wrote: »
    Dental Complaints Resolution Service is an independent body, funded by Irish Dental Association.

    Is that not a contradiction in terms especially when seen against the comments of the CEO of the Irish Dental Association in the latest edition of the IDA Journal (April/May 2012) Link below. In a wide ranging interview the CEO, in regard to the Dental Complaints Resolution Service states on page 74 "Given the alarming rise in the number of complaints and the associated rise in the size of awards and of legal costs, which are borne by the profession, we felt it was time to launch the Dental Complaints Resolution Service." While this might be of possible benefit to dental patients, I think its clear from the CEO's comments that it is also a vehicle to save on legal costs for his members.

    http://issuu.com/thinkmedia/docs/jida_aprilmay2012#embed http://www.dentist.ie/


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    #4
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    Dentists are insured, the only money this will save is legal fees for patients with a complaint. I do not see any down side to this as its a free service and all the previous routes are still available. These are common in the USA every state has one run by the local dental board.


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    #5
    Oral Surgeon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Oral Surgeon


    yobr wrote: »
    Is that not a contradiction in terms especially when seen against the comments of the CEO of the Irish Dental Association in the latest edition of the IDA Journal (April/May 2012) Link below. In a wide ranging interview the CEO, in regard to the Dental Complaints Resolution Service states on page 74 "Given the alarming rise in the number of complaints and the associated rise in the size of awards and of legal costs, which are borne by the profession, we felt it was time to launch the Dental Complaints Resolution Service." While this might be of possible benefit to dental patients, I think its clear from the CEO's comments that it is also a vehicle to save on legal costs for his members.

    http://issuu.com/thinkmedia/docs/jida_aprilmay2012#embed http://www.dentist.ie/
    Brenna Straight Saddle wrote: »
    Dentists are insured, the only money this will save is legal fees for patients with a complaint. I do not see any down side to this as its a free service and all the previous routes are still available. These are common in the USA every state has one run by the local dental board.


    This is actually funded by the subs of the members of the irish dental association... So why are dentists are paying for people to complain against them??

    Reason is that most significant complaints are against the same guys every time and they do indeed have to address them...

    Other complaints are actually regular consumer & money issues so you'd have to ask why there is not a similar body for all trades and for GPs and pharmacies & opticians etc etc....


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    #6
    yobr
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭yobr


    Brenna Straight Saddle wrote: »
    Dentists are insured, the only money this will save is legal fees for patients with a complaint. I do not see any down side to this as its a free service and all the previous routes are still available.

    I agree, dentists are insured and in common with all insurance policies, the more you claim the more the policy costs you. If dentists have less legal costs as a result of the establishment of the DCRS, as the CEO of the IDA suggests they might, then they will save on their insurance costs.

    While for certain complaints, this might give patients access to a low cost resolution procedure, which is to be welcomed, I would be concerned that there are certain serious complaints which should be for investigation only by the Dental Council. Given the independence of the DCRS, I doubt if there is any contact between it and the Dental Council.


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    #7
    Dianthus
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dianthus


    yobr wrote: »
    I agree, dentists are insured and in common with all insurance policies, the more you claim the more the policy costs you.
    Alas, no. Such a thing as a "no claims bonus" does not exist for dental insurance.
    Also, individual dentists' insurance subscriptions are not assessed on their own individual track record. So many dentists who've never had to make a claim, still have to pay the same subscription fees as those dentists who've had to make numerous claims. Strange but true.


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    #8
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    yobr wrote: »
    I agree, dentists are insured and in common with all insurance policies, the more you claim the more the policy costs you. If dentists have less legal costs as a result of the establishment of the DCRS, as the CEO of the IDA suggests they might, then they will save on their insurance costs.

    While for certain complaints, this might give patients access to a low cost resolution procedure, which is to be welcomed, I would be concerned that there are certain serious complaints which should be for investigation only by the Dental Council. Given the independence of the DCRS, I doubt if there is any contact between it and the Dental Council.

    Nope, indemnity costs are the same for all dentists regardless of their claims. Its community linked if you will. You will have to look elsewhere for a Machiavellian reason the dental profession is doing this. And before you ask, there are no evidence based studies on this and no I do not have a vested interest in this, never been sued. If the dental council was able to resolve issues to the satisfaction of both parties in a speedy manner then there would be no need for this. Most issues are related to breakdown in communication, I think this is the type of complaint this service is there for, serious complaints of negligence etc would of course be handled by the regulatory bodies or courts, but the costs to a patient and time required are great down these avenues. It will also created another avenue for patient who are treated abroad by Irish registered dentist to get some resolution.


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    #9
    Mingetoad
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭Mingetoad


    I think another point being missed is that some patients do have a complaint which they do not feel has been adequately dealt with by the dentist, however they do not wish do go down the road of suing the dentist or looking for professional charges to be brought. This service is less daunting for the patient who feels aggrieved and will allow certain issues to be resolved which previously would have been left for the patient to deal with by backbiting and complaining about the profession as a whole.


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    #10
    yobr
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭yobr


    Brenna Straight Saddle wrote: »
    You will have to look elsewhere for a Machiavellian reason the dental profession is doing this.

    I don't need to seek out Machiavellian reasons why the IDA are doing this as the reasons for this development are very transparent. Indeed, as I have quoted earlier, the CEO of the IDA has explained clearly one of the reasons why the association is doing this now.
    yobr wrote: »
    In a wide ranging interview the CEO, in regard to the Dental Complaints Resolution Service states on page 74 "Given the alarming rise in the number of complaints and the associated rise in the size of awards and of legal costs, which are borne by the profession, we felt it was time to launch the Dental Complaints Resolution Service." While this might be of possible benefit to dental patients, I think its clear from the CEO's comments that it is also a vehicle to save on legal costs for his members.

    http://issuu.com/thinkmedia/docs/jida_aprilmay2012#embed http://www.dentist.ie/


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    #11
    Dianthus
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dianthus


    yobr wrote: »
    While this might be of possible benefit to dental patients, I think its clear from the CEO's comments that it is also a vehicle to save on legal costs for his members.
    Er, of course! If you were paying your car insurance fee based on the amount of accidents joyriders were having generally, I think you'd find it a bit unfair to have to pay the same subscription as those reckless drivers if you still had your no claims bonus after 10, 20, 30 years of careful driving.
    And who do you think would indirectly pay for the dramatically increased dental insurances longterm, only patients themselves, through increased dental fees? Look at the bigger picture here. It's in the best interests of everyone.


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    #12
    Big_G
    Moderators Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Big_G


    In Ireland, dentists are not insured, they are indemnified. I believe it is a legal requirement based on the Dentist Act 1985 (I am open to correction). We pay a fee into a mutual fund managed in the UK by one of the large indemnity societies that cover medicine and dentistry. The fund is used to pay legal fees and settlements and for the education of dentists in risk management and communication.

    Rarely do dental complaint cases go to court. Possibly a dangerous statement to make on a public forum, therefore I will ask you to draw your own conclusions from that; I would rather not elaborate.

    In recent years, the cost of indemnity in Ireland I believe has tripled. It is now the most expensive country in the world for dental indemnity. Far more than the US or UK or any other litigious country. It is not because we have a higher frequency of complaints than other countries.

    Reducing the costs of indemnity benefits the patient because it should in theory reduce prices for dental treatment. It is a mandatory expense for dentists. Most complaints arise out of poor communication, and as previously stated there are serial offenders. If we can resolve these issues satisfactorily for patients without having to use the mutual fund chequebook it is a win for everybody. Keeps indemnity costs down, patient is happy, serial offenders may (unlikely) learn something about communicating instead of using indemnity protection as their clinic's customer service branch.

    That is all.


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    #13
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    The silence is deafening since those last two posts.....Big_G and Dianthus will you stop using logic and reason to spoil a perfectly good conspiracy theory.


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    #14
    yobr
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭yobr


    Brenna Straight Saddle wrote: »
    Dentists are insured, the only money this will save is legal fees for patients with a complaint.

    Your view would appear to be at odds with the view of the CEO of the IDA, (see my earlier link), where he talk about "legal costs, borne by the profession".
    Oral Surgeon wrote: »
    Reason is that most significant complaints are against the same guys every time and they do indeed have to address them...
    Big_G wrote: »
    Reducing the costs of indemnity benefits the patient because it should in theory reduce prices for dental treatment. It is a mandatory expense for dentists. Most complaints arise out of poor communication, and as previously stated there are serial offenders. If we can resolve these issues satisfactorily for patients without having to use the mutual fund chequebook it is a win for everybody. Keeps indemnity costs down, patient is happy, serial offenders may (unlikely) learn something about communicating instead of using indemnity protection as their clinic's customer service branch.

    In theory yes, but we will never have anyway of knowing whether any savings will be passed on to the patients.

    You both recognise there are serial offenders amongst your ranks but I would question whether they should be allowed access to this service? Would it not be preferable for the patient and the profession if these cases went through the Dental Council where they could be compelled to attend training with a view to improving their skills? Does this new service refer such serial offenders to the Dental Council, is there any linkage between them?

    Finally, there is a contradiction between the statement of the CEO of the IDA and its President regarding the reasons for the establishment of this service. While the CEO clearly talks about reducing legal costs borne by the profession, there is no mention of this aspect on the IDA press release.

    http://www.dentist.ie/resources/news/showarticle.jsp?id=1212


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    #15
    Dianthus
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dianthus


    Bait eaten.....:(


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    #16
    Oral Surgeon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Oral Surgeon


    yobr wrote: »
    Your view would appear to be at odds with the view of the CEO of the IDA, (see my earlier link), where he talk about "legal costs, borne by the profession".





    In theory yes, but we will never have anyway of knowing whether any savings will be passed on to the patients.

    You both recognise there are serial offenders amongst your ranks but I would question whether they should be allowed access to this service? Would it not be preferable for the patient and the profession if these cases went through the Dental Council where they could be compelled to attend training with a view to improving their skills? Does this new service refer such serial offenders to the Dental Council, is there any linkage between them?

    Finally, there is a contradiction between the statement of the CEO of the IDA and its President regarding the reasons for the establishment of this service. While the CEO clearly talks about reducing legal costs borne by the profession, there is no mention of this aspect on the IDA press release.

    http://www.dentist.ie/resources/news/showarticle.jsp?id=1212


    bored.jpg


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    #17
    btkm8unsl0w5r4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭btkm8unsl0w5r4


    yobr wrote: »
    Your view would appear to be at odds with the view of the CEO of the IDA, (see my earlier link), where he talk about "legal costs, borne by the profession".

    Maybe he assumed people would make the simple connection between costs borne by the dentists and fees charged to patients. You don't need to be an economist to figure that one out.


    yobr wrote: »
    In theory yes, but we will never have anyway of knowing whether any savings will be passed on to the patients.

    brilliant argument there :rolleyes:

    yobr wrote: »
    You both recognise there are serial offenders amongst your ranks but I would question whether they should be allowed access to this service? Would it not be preferable for the patient and the profession if these cases went through the Dental Council where they could be compelled to attend training with a view to improving their skills? Does this new service refer such serial offenders to the Dental Council, is there any linkage between them?

    Its the linkage between you and the dental council I am interested in. Would it not be better if any time the dentist on the forum here hint at the serial offenders you don't jump in accuse us of protectionism, this might save some people a lot of trouble. The DC are well aware of who the serial offenders are, however the fact that this needed to be set up show the efficacy of their methods.
    yobr wrote: »
    Finally, there is a contradiction between the statement of the CEO of the IDA and its President regarding the reasons for the establishment of this service. While the CEO clearly talks about reducing legal costs borne by the profession, there is no mention of this aspect on the IDA press release.

    http://www.dentist.ie/resources/news/showarticle.jsp?id=1212

    So what, there are some people not a obsessed with consumer issues as you and think more of professional relationships and quality of service. This is a good thing for patient, dentists and may drive down prices a bit, I have a feeling if the dental council had started this instead of the IDA you have a different opinion.


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