Use smaller planes to US in winter, FF transport spokesman urges Aer Lingus

RadioRetro

Your A330s are too big, look at UA, they use 757s year-round, says Timmy Dooley. Thoughts?

Irish Times
"Aer Lingus could successfully operate all-year-round daily flights to the US from Shannon if it used smaller, more efficient aircraft, it has been claimed.
[SNIP]
“The A330 is too big and this is why I believe they haven’t been able to make the route viable and can’t operate it all year,” [Timmy Dooley] said."

Zonda999

They could probably use an A320NEO in the future but they will have A350-900's to fill in Dublin, and the seat-mile costs of that aircraft would be lower still. Not going to happen IMO..

Plus. people have mentioned here before that if you go on, say a UAL or Delta flight from Ireland, the passengers will be predominantly American, whereas if you travel with Aer Lingus, the passengers will be predominantly Irish, this might have something to do with it also..

And, in any case, DUB is no more than 2 hours by car from either Limerick or Galway city, not exactly far..

xflyer

Clearly Timothy Dooley is no expert on aviation or airlines. He is however from Clare. So his comments are nothing more the usual parish pump politics. No doubt he hopes it will help him get elected because he is neither a counsellor or TD.

He's also talking out of his a***. If he honestly thinks it makes sense for Aer Lingus to buy or lease aircraft merely to cover the quiet Winter season in a SINGLE airport. Then he really needs some basic lessons in economics.

The market isn't there, if it was someone would fill it.

highlydebased

He has probably been reading boards.ie where using an A330 out of Shannon has been criticised widely!

Stimpyone

I had heard that EI are interested in 321neo for routes on the east coast of the US and possibly Canada, and using the 330's elsewhere. Make of that what you will.

Zonda999

That has been mooted before but considering they have no less than 9 A350's on order, it would seem that they would have plenty for our tiny market. And if you consider that with A350's on order, as well as the A330's they will still have at that point, any A321NEO's would be surely for Shannon only. That doesn't add up at all in my eyes. Thats far too many air craft. How many of EI's current fleet of 7 A330s will still be there when EI have al 9 of their A350's in 2018? There would certainly be 4 so that would amount to 13 long haul aircraft. I would think EI's future strategy would be focusing on filling A350's, flying from Dublin, with probably just seasonal transatlantic routes using A330's from Shannon

And as for the Canadian route, an A330 would be viable on that route during the summer IMO, and that route would only be a summer route anyway, probably. We currently have two operators serving Canada during the summer, Air Transat and Air Canada. They use A310's, A330's and 767's on those routes. There is clearly room for EI using an A330 on that route IMO.

And btw, the thread below went through all the options for EI's transatlantic operations in the next 10 years..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056534187&page=2

Neworder79

The major issue of financial viability aside, the NEO is a few years off. It's not being marketed for TA yet, and not clear if it will have the range for year round westbound operations allowing sufficient contingency (winter jet stream speeds can even force refueling stops on long-range aircraft.

Airbus states a range of 3200nm for 321NEO, but it' is expected to increase to nearer 3500 as the final spec is firmed. NOC/SNN/ORK/DUB are 2668/2678/2704/2763 nm (according to GCMap) respectively. But aircraft don't fly straight lines and TA aircraft also have to meet ETOPS conditions requiring longer near land routes which would push close to the range limit.

The 321NEO documentation suggest Eastbound US may be within range for NEO with 2 class low density configuration (185 pax). Range is quickly reduced if scaled to higher density/weight config (220 pax single class). However there may be other options like the extra cargo hold fuel tanks as used on the A319 by Air Canada.



http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/Airbus_AC_A321_20110501_Apr11.pdf

It's intriguing that Aer Lingus and Airbus are discussing this, the aircraft and it would open up a lot of new possibilities for EI and the airports (not all of which might suit a Clare TDs agenda). US Airways have been calling for a long range A321 also lately and there are lots of aging 757s crossing the pond with no clear replacement in sight as of yet.

That has been mooted before but considering they have no less than 9 A350's on order, it would seem that they would have plenty for our tiny market.

Interesting that Ethiad who are discussing a partnership with Aer Lingus and recently purchased a share have just cancelled several 350s.

Zonda999

Its true, a successor in part to the 757-200 would certainly do well. Many of the American operators have ordered 737-900ER's but I would say these are able to do 80% of what the 757 did/does. Remember some of the Americans regularly use 757's on routes to central continental Europe, Berlin, Stockholm, you name it. Whatever about the A321NEO not being able to make it from Ireland, you can forget it on those routes.

There is no doubt an A321NEO-R or whatever it would be called would be a popular aircraft

kona

Haha ff economics spokesman. Why doesnt he take his vested intrests and stfu, or call on ryanair to operate the route. Shannon is a joke at this stage.

Bebop

It's not the size of aircraft that matters, it's the fuel burn per seat set against the load factor,
The 757 is an old aircraft, AL's 330 fleet are mostly brand new with a fuel burn that would be at least equal if not better

I flew trans Atlantic on a Delta 757 last September and with the cramped cabin and single aisle it was like a 6 hour Ryanair, I really missed the space and freedom of of a Wide body cabin, I suspect that the customer appeal of the roomier cabin will be a factor in UAL's choice of B757 replacement, the A321 NEO will need to offer a better cabin experience over the standard 3X3 single aisle if it is to succeed on the crowded North Atlantic Market

Delancey

That these comments are from a Fianna Fail'er says it all really - Irish aviation has suffered from eejits like that for too long.

emanresu

xflyer wrote: »

...No doubt he hopes it will help him get elected because he is neither a counsellor or TD. ...

He is a TD. He was re-elected in the last election.

Dacian

kona wrote: »

........Why doesnt he take his vested intrests and stfu, or call on ryanair to operate the route. Shannon is a joke at this stage.

I would clarify that statement by saying that the local politicians and/or 'spokespersons' connected to the Shannon lobby are a joke and have been for quite a while.

I wonder will Dooley and his supporters provide the funds for EI to purchase this "smaller, more efficient airplane"?

And isn't Dooley merely repeating what EI themselves have given as the reason for dropping the route over the lean Winter months?

xflyer

emanresu wrote: »

He is a TD. He was re-elected in the last election.

Whatever, he's still clueless.

roundymac

xflyer wrote: »

Whatever, he's still clueless.

Yes he is but it's a good soundbite and that's all that matters as far as he's concerned. When did the truth ever get in the way of a piece of good PR.

kona

Dacian wrote: »

I would clarify that statement by saying that the local politicians and/or 'spokespersons' connected to the Shannon lobby are a joke and have been for quite a while.

I wonder will Dooley and his supporters provide the funds for EI to purchase this "smaller, more efficient airplane"?

And isn't Dooley merely repeating what EI themselves have given as the reason for dropping the route over the lean Winter months?

Well whoever is running that show is a joke. Been through shannon twice this year and the terminal is deserted, both going out and back. literally 5 mins from check in desk to gate.
Hardly any aircraft take off or land, and this includes alot of Diversions and maintenance.

As has been said, these political morons have done enough to destroy Aer Lingus and aviation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UeWB9IwxWI

A320

Ah dooley applying some grease 33 to the parish pump,He only got re-elected because of the stupid transfer votes system,I was waiting for him to call to my door,he would of got a mouthful,he was nowhere to be seen :mad:

Suits

The only thing worse than dying is dying without dignity...and over the past year or so the Shannon people have certainly been burning a fair bit of dignity up.......

Wouldnt be surprised they paid Specsavers a few quid to drop hints to NASA at this stage!:rolleyes:

Dooley can explain to the people waiting to fly that the flight is Cancelled because the weather isnt good enough if they put a smaller range aircraft on the routes!:D

moss.ie

A320 wrote: »

Ah dooley applying some grease 33 to the parish pump,He only got re-elected because of the stupid transfer votes system,I was waiting for him to call to my door,he would of got a mouthful,he was nowhere to be seen :mad:

Agreed!



Dimmy Dooley?

dont get me started, im from clare and i have to say im embarresed that he got in in the last election, did anyone see him makin an arse of himself on Vincent Browne's programme? or wh at about the time he dozed off in the dail and and voted against his own party "by accident" when he woke up. commenting on Aviation? he's not even qualified to make a comment on bicycles nevermind aircraft n aviation....

flanzer

Doesn't Aer Lingus do well on cargo to the States, especially the East Coast? Surely they'd need the 330 to cater for that. A 757 would limit the cargo capacity greatly

L1011

flanzer wrote: »

Doesn't Aer Lingus do well on cargo to the States, especially the East Coast? Surely they'd need the 330 to cater for that. A 757 would limit the cargo capacity greatly

I would imagine that cargo can be easily moved by road to Dublin during the winter if required. As it clearly is now.

Stinicker

If this clown was so concerned in keeping services running to Shannon then why did his corrupt party privatize Aer Lingus in the first place? He should shut his mouth and go back to whatever bog he crawled out of and leave Aviation to the people who know their stuff.

Bebop

Aer Lingus was privatised for the same reason that every other national Airline in Europe was,
When the EU levelled the playing field member States were no longer allowed to subsidise their flag carriers with taxpayers money, this allowed low-cost airlines like Ryanair and EasyJet into the marketplace and brought down the cost of air travel which has created more jobs in tourisim not just in Ireland but all over Europe,

Stinicker; You can argue for a return to the bad old days but you will not get many takers

ohigg84

Delancey wrote: »

That these comments are from a Fianna Fail'er says it all really - Irish aviation has suffered from eejits like that for too long.

Yeah he clearly 'knows' aviation.. What a waster!!

I would think that if the demand isn't there, there is scope for EI to redeploy some A330's to lauch routes to the Middle East/ South Africa.

Anyway, there was an article in a paper stating that EI is seriously considering launching another route to the U.S East coast. Canada is rumoured to be on the agenda.

the_syco

If the "smaller" plane still has four engines, maybe.

ohigg84

the_syco wrote: »

If the "smaller" plane still has four engines, maybe.

Ha, the 146!:D

L1011

the_syco wrote: »

If the "smaller" plane still has four engines, maybe.

Seeing as they use a two engined plane as it is...

Smaller four engine = 146 (as mentioned), Dash 7. Not sure they can really cross the Atlantic.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

globemaster1986

MYOB wrote: »

Seeing as they use a two engined plane as it is...

Smaller four engine = 146 (as mentioned), Dash 7. Not sure they can really cross the Atlantic.

Not without a stop or two. 1570nm range for the 146 and only 700nm for the dash 7.

There are still a few Lockheed Jetstars around, 8-10 seats. Is that small enough?:D

basill

If SNN are holding out hopes for the A321NEO being their saviour for regular all year round Atlantic services then they had better get with the programme because there won't be a solution coming anytime soon.

Airbus say 2015 for its introduction. Add on the usual year or two delays and we are into 2016/17. Also we assume that it will deliver the savings in terms of fuel and seat mileage costs that the marketing spins says it will.

Today is 2012 and 5 years is an eternity in the airline business. Who knows what will occur in the cycle that will have a knock on impact to the business models of the airlines that might be interested in serving SNN. Be it flu, oil prices, wars etc etc.

And if that loopy TD thinks that a small niche airline such as AL can afford to go off and get a couple of 757s, fit them out in green, get them on the AOC, pay for type rating courses and have a dedicated group of line pilots, checkers, trainers, engineers and cabin crew just to operate from SNN then he is clearly deluded. The crewing alone would be a nightmare.

Suits

I personally think that to go to the states a 2 and a bit hour trip up the motorway isnt too bad! With the quick journey times now between cities in Ireland why would Aer Lingus waste time and money flying from SNN. I have American relatives and the very mention of SNN gets them out in a rash with flashbacks of cold exhaustion on a pointless stopover waiting to fly 15 to where everyone wants to go!
SNN's proximity to Dublin now means that it will hard to justify operating A330s from there half full while there may be an under capacity on Dublin. By redeploying A330s to SNN Aer Lingus may hand business to other carriers.
SNN's days of reaping the benefits of local politics and political football are sadly over.

Tenger

globemaster1986 wrote: »

There are still a few Lockheed Jetstars around, 8-10 seats. Is that small enough?:D

Better ask Timmy Dooley, he seems to know about these matters........

Milan Cobian

SNN's days of reaping the benefits of local politics and political football are sadly over.

Not much to be sad about. The histrionics of the SNN lobby nearly killed Aer Lingus and strangled tourism by deterring other airlines from serving Ireland.
The ff'er can bleat all he likes but the days of a private profitable carrier doing long-haul from a small regional airport with a tiny catchment area, only 2.5 hours drive from it's main hub, is long gone, never to return.
Rather than causing pointless distractions, the local politicians should support SNN in doing the only thing it can do: trying to serve what limited markets it realistically can from such a small catchment area population.
Just because you have a big runway doesn't mean you should be doing long-haul.

Suits

Milan Cobian wrote: »

Not much to be sad about. The histrionics of the SNN lobby nearly killed Aer Lingus and strangled tourism by deterring other airlines from serving Ireland.
The ff'er can bleat all he likes but the days of a private profitable carrier doing long-haul from a small regional airport with a tiny catchment area, only 2.5 hours drive from it's main hub, is long gone, never to return.
Rather than causing pointless distractions, the local politicians should support SNN in doing the only thing it can do: trying to serve what limited markets it realistically can from such a small catchment area population.
Just because you have a big runway doesn't mean you should be doing long-haul.

Shannon's long runway I think is useful from the point of view of giving North Atlantic traffic a safe airport to land in if it hits the fan, knowing that they dont stand much chance of over-running etc...but beyond that finding a specific reason for regular jet activity outside of commuter services will be hard. I know that Aer Lingus made themselves the target of international ridicule over their continued use to SNN as a stopover point on DUB bound flights, and that and experience I believe has lead to them wanting to distance themselves a little from the airport.

Tenger

Suits wrote: »

.......I know that Aer Lingus made themselves the target of international ridicule over their continued use to SNN as a stopover point on DUB bound flights,......

This was due to the enforcement of the SNN stopover rule and later a legacy of being semi-state. The private stand-alone EI has sensibly eliminated their exposure to such a low yield seasonal market.

xflyer

Tenger wrote: »

This was due to the enforcement of the SNN stopover rule and later a legacy of being semi-state. The private stand-alone EI has sensibly eliminated their exposure to such a low yield seasonal market.

In fact ALL airlines had to make the Shannon stopover. Whether they be Delta or anyone else. It was an absolute joke by the end and it was damaging to Aer Lingus and the other airlines on the transatlantic route. I endured the stopover a couple of times. Landing a 747, 20 minutes from it's real destination for political reasons was ridiculous. It was even more ridiculous when you just spent the day, plane hopping across America and really just wanted to get home NOW!:mad:

There was a huge fuss when some common sense prevailed and some flights direct from Dublin were allowed. People marching and talking about betrayal. Same again now, apparently people think Aer Lingus should be a charitable organisation designed to prop up local politicians and jobs in County Clare.:rolleyes:

Suits

Tenger wrote: »

This was due to the enforcement of the SNN stopover rule and later a legacy of being semi-state. The private stand-alone EI has sensibly eliminated their exposure to such a low yield seasonal market.

I should have been a little more specific in what I was trying to say there. Aer Lingus bit the bullet for political nonsense.

I think that Cork and SNN will fight it out now for top dog status and if I'm honest I think one will "go to the wall" from a commercial point of view.

Munster aint big enough for the 2 of them!:cool:

Milan Cobian

I think that Cork and SNN will fight it out now for top dog status and if I'm honest I think one will "go to the wall" from a commercial point of view.

Only one winner here. SNN is goosed. Cork has a much more populous catchment area and is farther from Dublin. The short runway at Cork is irrelevant as it's long enough for European services, which is all either it or SNN are able to support.
NOC will probably carry on reasonably successfully too as the road to Dublin is still fairly poor from Mayo, but the country is too small to support regional airports all over. DUB, ORK, NOC and BFS are within reach with a couple of hours drive from most of the country, we don't need and can't support any more airports.

Dacian

So the consensus seems to be that DUB is the main airport, and that our island can only support 3 other 'secondary' airports.
BFS has a solid stand alone catchment.

So there are 2 spots left, for either SNN, ORK or NOC.

It could well take 5-10 years for this competition to end however.